Fertilizer

I do believe that one would have better results changing pH by use of calcium based materials than just using oxygen! Especially since around 50% of the open spaces in soil is already oxygen.

Martin

What makes you sure they do? I know it's a valuable product. That's why I bemoan that it isn't used. I've driven by feedlots and seen the manure piled up very, very high and stinkin' to high heaven (to quote L. Wainwright out of context).

Thanks, Cabin Fever for the info on Dillo Dirt...

I do know Portland Oregon used to sell their zoo manure as Zoo Doo. The city also sold composted sewage sludge, but separate from the Zoo Doo. I must've had them confused with Austin...

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[QUOTE=dare2b]
Chemical fertilizers destroy the biological life of the soil and in the long run are counterproductive. Proven fact, not just MHO.

[QUOTE]

So THAT'S why there's no food in the grocery stores!

Gosh Marty, 50% of the pore space in soils contain air, not oxygen. The percentage of oxygen in air is only about 20%. Actually, gaseous oxygen (O2) is not available to react with the hydrogen ion (H+) that causes soil acidity. It's the oxygen ion (O--) in alkaline materials that combines with the hydrogen ion....not the oxygen molecule (O2)....that is responsible for reducing soil acidity.

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The other half of the pore space is water, H2O. The water would then be 33% oxygen, which combined with the 20% oxygen in the air spaces, looks to total about 53% oxygen between the two! That's fairly close to half!

Martin

[QUOTE=dcross]roll your eyes all you want, but a soil sample of corporate farms will, I'm betting, show little or no biological activity. Which is why fertilizer sales are so high. Once a person gets into the habit of using it, then they are trapped into using it again and again because the soil is dead, dead, dead, and crops must be grown chemically, unless or until organic matter is reintroduced and the soil is reclaimed. Plus, bonus!, the runoff poisons the water that you and I drink, not to mention that the fish, etc., must swim and reproduce in the streams that it pollutes.

If you want to bring up the spinach ecoli problem caused by runoff from the manure piled high at the feedlot located next to the spinach farm, ok, but remember that I want to take that manure from the feedlot, compost it and use it to feed the soil that the spinach grows in, plus in the process use it to generate electricity and/or heat in the form of methane gas.... Much bigger bang for the buck than chemical fertilizers can offer.

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LOL, you forgot to include the oxygen that is tied up in the soil organic matter (C-H-O compounds), which wil bring your total to well over 50% (by your accounting method). However, none of the oxygen in the items you've mentioned (air or water) can dissociate to combine with H+ and thus have no influence on reducing soil pH. Even the oxygen in gypsum (which also contains calcium) is not available to react with soil acidity. Generally speaking, only oxygen in the form of carbonates, oxides or hydroxides is effective in reducing soil pH....it has nothing to do with whether a compound has calcium in it or not.

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Dare2b, plants don't care what form their nutrients come in. They could care less what else is in the soil and they don't even need the soil. Proof of that is hydroponics.

Also, some of the so-called chemical fertilizers can't be organic if they are the result of petroleum refining. Same identical fertilizers created from coal processing is readily accepted.

Martin

In this instance you could probably say: HS

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Yes, I agree, but I'm talking about the soil, not the plants. And yes, I agree with your second paragraph too. Did I say that chemical fertilizers are organic? If so, I didn't communicate well enough.

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Cabin, you're still not going to raise the pH by using nitrogen as stated by a previous poster. And you're not going to go the local garden center and ask for a bottle of oxygen to raise your soil pH. But you WILL adjust your pH upwards by going to that same store and getting whatever they have available with contains calcium which is usually lime in one form or another.

Martin

ok...i will add fuel to this fire, lol. actually, petroleum is an organic compound.


and as for the piles of manure, they are composting in that big pile you see. dig into the middle of it and feel the heat. how do you know the manure compost, or even the manure itself, isn't returned to the pastures it originally came from. there are lots of cattle farms here in the east that grow their own corn and fertilize the corn fields with manure from their cattle. it works the same for any pasture or hay field. that is why they make manure spreaders.

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"All that is gold does not glitter..."

You didn't have to state organic or chemical. Those are generally the only 2 designations of fertilizer in the gardening industry. If something isn't organic, then it's chemical and v.v. Organic is always equated with non-chemical. And, the general thought among many gardeners and the uneducated general public is that anything considered safe for organic gardening/farming is good for themselves and the soil. And yet it all comes down to the whole system being hypocritical.

Saw some figures once as to how many trees we'd have to cut down in the US in order to organically cover the minimum amount of potash imported from Canada in one year. The entire nation would be completely de-forested, right down to the last tree in your back yard and still not have enough. And yet muriate of potash can't be used in organic farming and gardening operations. However, sulfur, extracted by virtually the same identical process, IS accepted.

Martin

Yes, that's an accepted fact except that anything derived from petroleum is not considered organic. One major bi-product of refining crude oil is sulfur. Supposedly, not a drop of it can be used for organic gardening. And why is that just one of the hypocritical things in this game? I can't find any company that is still producing sulfur by the accepted method!

Those things are now almost obsolete in most states. Check out what the laws now say about spreading manure. Regulations in many states now call for holding pits or other methods of storing the manure until the appropriate time when it can be spread by specially qualified personnel, NOT the farmer. Those anti-pollution laws have caused a great many dairy farms to shut down rather than try to find the money to comply with the regulations. If you see a huge pile of manure beside a feed lot, look a little closer and you'll find that there's probably an expensive liner underneath it so that not a drop of liquid can leach down into the soil. That just goes with cattle farming now and there's no way around it. Comply or shut down!

Martin

Agree

Agree

Disagree. The following calcium-containing soil amendments will not influence soil pH: calcium nitrate, calcium sulfate (gypsum), calcium orthophosphates, calcium chloride, and ordinary superphosphate (20% Ca).

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I saw the same program. I'm intrigued by the Guano from Texas (Bat-Doo).
I currently use the stuff I clean out of my goat barn. Lots of hay/straw and "Jelly Beans" mixed in. I have a continual supply of it and mix the new in with the old and compost it continually. Works wonders on the hay mow and pastures, too.

I'll still stick to my original post on this subject. The elements N and P are NOT employed to alter pH. The elements Ca and S ARE employed to alter pH. Attempting to argue the process in which it takes place has nothing to do with those facts.

Martin

You are wrong Martin, the element "calcium" does not influence soil pH. That is not a fact and never has been. You are correct that elemental sulfur does decrease pH.

I am just trying to bring a little scientific fact to the subject. As a soil scientist, I just wanted to clear up a common misconception. That misconception being that "calcium" neutralizes soil pH. A person cannot make a blanket statement saying that calcium will increase soil pH. Some calcium compounds will neutralize soil pH and other calcium compounds will not. And as I stated earlier, it's not the element calcium in lime that is doing the neutralization. It's the oxygen (or more formally the hydroxyl ion). The hydroxyl ion (OH-) will form whenever any carbonate, oxide or hydroxide is applied to a moist soil. Any of the oxide, carbonate or hydroxide forms of calcium, magnesium, sodium or potassium will decrease soil acidity due to the formation of the hydroxyl ion....it’s not just calcium.

And please, do not misinterpret what I am attempting to convey by implying that all forms of oxygen will influence pH....as they don’t...that should be common sense. I am done beating this horse.

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Good! Then you would know that lime, which consists mainly of calcium carbonate and calcium oxide is quite effective in neutralizing soil pH and is the most common means employed for that purpose.

I'll link to just one of many sites which state that calcium indeed is one of the important elements in determining soil pH.
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1650.htm
Note where it states that when the calcium and magnesium is leached from the soil, it is replaced by other elements which in turn acidify that soil.

Martin

I lied, I will comment on this too. While the above statement is true, you can add calcium to the soil until you're blue in the face and it will not change soil pH....unless the form of calcium you apply is a calcium carbonate, calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide. In other words, you can apply tons of calcium sulfate (gypsum) or calcium nitrate, or calcium chloride, etc. and soil pH will not be changed.

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