Which would you rather have?
 

So, we're starting our search for land (even though we won't have the money for any until next year at least when we sell our house). There's one town in particular that we're interested in because the taxes are insanely low for this area AND there's no zoning (which means no building permits, which means that we can build our papercrete house with no hassles). The biggest issue with this town is that there isn't a whole lot of land for sale, and a lot of what is for sale is expensive.

The few pieces we've seen for sale that are less expensive are almost completely wooded. Now, I want woods on whatever land that we have, but I'm also going to want some field and open space. I'm wondering if we should hold out to find property that already has some field along with woods, or if we should consider clearing the land ourselves? I'm hoping to eventually have a couple of fields that are a couple acres each, with a narrow strip of woods in between.

If your vote is to go ahead and buy wooded land and then have it cleared, how long would it take to get good pasture established after clearing? I'm really hesitant to bring in "traditional" loggers (ie, those with skidders and other heavy equipment) because of the damage that they tend to cause (especially since most in this area are pretty reckless and seem to like to get drunk and then go play on the skidder at the log landing -- we have friends who work with these guys and they're not the type I particularly want on my property). I would prefer to have horse logging done, and I know that there are some people around here that do it, but I'm wondering what kind of time frame we'd be looking at to have a couple of acres split with the stumps pulled so that we could start getting grass established?

Also, we're hoping that we could get someone to take half of the logs taken for payment, and leave us the other half to get the small amount of lumber we're going to need to build. Does that sound realistic considering what we're considering? Or would we be better off paying them to log the land and then using all of the logs taken for lumber (I'm hoping we can get some hardwood as well as softwood, but it's going to depend on the specific piece of land, of course). One nice part about the town that we're looking in is that very little of it has been logged in the last half century or more. There is even some old-growth forest left (which we wouldn't touch, other than select cutting to improve the health of the forest).

Sorry to be so long-winded, but given the choice would you rather clear your own land or find land that's already cleared but maybe not *exactly* what you want?

What general area/state are you in?

I clearcut this area in the Spring of 2006, in late Spring and Summer of 2006 I stumped and smoothed the ground and in late Fall of 2006 I fertilized, limed and planted grass. This picture was taken in the Spring of 2007.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...d/P1010035.jpg

Why are you focusing on moving to a town?

It is my observation that urban is more expensive than rural.
It is my observation that urban has more crime than rural.
It is my observation that urban has more people than rural.
It is my observation that urban has less land than rural.

First find out why the taxes are so low...some areas just have lower taxes but others are just waiting for people to buy then raise them.

Something to remember
 

You might want to remember that the fact that there are no restrictions on your property also means that there are no restrictions on other people. You might get a neighbor building something right next door that could cause problems for you and there wouldn't be much(if anything) you could do about it. :nono: Those restrictions work both ways.

the no restrictions worked real well for us, until 4 miles up the road a developer bought 500 acres and are selling it off as mini horse farms of 20 acres each and almost clear cutting it. We have owned our poperty 20 years so had no idea this would be happening.

cchapman84
You never said where you were from or looking for land.

Depending on what kind of timber you have on the property and what kind of shape it is in will dictate if you will be paying them or they will be paying you.

You should check with the municipality on ordinances and such. Just because there is no zoning doesn't mean you have free reign on what you want to do. There could still be ordinances and state inspections on building. Just a thought.

Kmac15......

Do you expect the developer who bought the 500 acres to have fewer "property rights" than you have? :shrug:

In Colorado, I witnessed people move in from "Back East" because they liked Colorado and didn't like where they were from "Back East". Then, they proceeded to pass laws that made that part of Colorado just like "Back East". :rolleyes:

Typical human behavior: "Hooray for me and to Hades with you!" (Sometimes I think people are screwy!)

No Offense intended...just commenting on how we think (or don't think).

Best Regards, :)
Bruce
P.S. Because "life is short", I would hire the guys with the skid-loader, keep the wood, and plant the pasture ASAP.

Right now, on a thread somewhere else on the vast internet, there is a neighbor complaining about the people who are thinking of clear cutting the "forest" next door and planting corn on it... Perhaps agmantoos neighbor, perhaps cchapmans...


LOL.

junk, I have no problem with anyone doing what they feel is right for their property, I was just commenting on the fact that what you buy for country property can always change. I am sure the people that bought the place next to us wish we do not do all the things we do on ours LOL (pigs, lambs,chickens) I had just not planned on having so many neighbors. and our experience since we have moved here has been that the ones moving this far out with a lot of horses try to change the country :read-redneck: feel of the place to something more cityfide

but I guess life does not stand still lol

Since you've just started looking, why decide now? Look at everything that interests you and when the time is right some particular piece of land will likely "speak to you". :)

20 acres each ain't bad - only 25 parcels. In my area that would have been leveled if wooded (usually is prime farm land though) and divided into the maximum number of lots using the smallest lot size allowed (and developers push to lower lot sizes under the guise of 'rooftops', said with a foreign accent from a goon who doesn't live in the area his company is raping). Some lot sizes are 100 X 100, some even a bit smaller. So while it may seem a shame to see the 500 acres divided, it was at least palatable in my book.

I don't know where you are, but wooded acreage is more expensive where I live than nonwooded. It takes time to grow those trees. There may be more woods because the land isn't suitable for crops.

I agree with doing some research to find out why taxes are lower in one place than in another. Some reasons could be: tourist area, fewer kids but can get enough school taxes when the tourists pitch in; poor schools; no sewer where there should be sewers (this can change in town so shouldn't effect you when sewers go in); no community water, all single wells (may effect you when they put in the water and sewer, big money).

No zoning doesn't necessarily mean no building permits. No zoning means that you can plant corn, or put in a bump shop anywhere you want.

You might want to call your county forrester and see what the logging prospects are for this wooded land you are looking at, they may be able to give you some advice on what method of logging is the most cost-effective. As far as the pasture goes, it all depends on how "pretty" you want it, you could leave all the stumps/slash, spread some manure and seed, fence it off, then throw your critters in, not to pretty but they don't care, goats love stumps! This is what I plan to do... you might want to throw some pigs in before you seed to root around a bit, fetilize and dig up some roots. I was worried about the larger stock like cows stepping in a hole and breaking a leg or something but everyone around here assures me they will be fine, (anyways they will be beef cows, if they do, I might just get beef a little earlier than I planned!)

Good luck, you will probably hear a hundred different ways to do everything, just listen to all of them, then do what you think is best for your situation.

EVERY place is in some town, somewhere :shrug: "Town" does not mean urban. Stephentown NY is a town and its certainly nowhere close to urban.

I grew up out West where 'town' meant within the city limits. Towns are commonly 10 - 20 miles apart from each other. All land outside of towns is county, and the towns have no jurisdiction over county land.

I now live back East and I see areas like you are describing, where everywhere is 'town'.

However some towns are not organized or incorporated. They have no mayor, no police, no fire, no tax collectors, and no planners.

In the East, an 'unorganized township' is very much like county is out West.

Kmac15

It appears that your attitude is MUCH like mine!

Unfortunately, neither of us is (likely) able to buy all the land around us. :shrug:

There is the story:

A farmer went to the Bank for the 4th time in two years to borrow money to buy some more land adjoining his.

The banker asked, "Farmer Jones, Do you want to buy ALL the land in the World?"

Farmer Jones replied, "No, only that which adjoins mine."

Ha-Ha! :rolleyes:

Have a nice weekend, Kmac15! :)
Bruce

Sorry it's taken me so long to post back.

We're located in Northeastern Vermont, and the "town" we're looking in probably wouldn't be considered a town in most areas. It is the town that DH grew up in for the most part, and his parents still live there (albeit in a completely different part of town :) ). It's also only about six miles from where we live now, so we know the area REALLY well, and we know many of the people who live in the town already (and many of those are the "decision makers" in town, which never hurts).

From what I can tell, taxes in the town are low for a couple reasons, and are likely to stay that way for at least the foreseeable future. The town has a HUGE landfill (quite a ways from the area we're looking at) which brings a lot of revenue to the town. There's also a small regional airport and lots of agriculture. The roads in the town are all in good shape and are well taken care of in winter, the school is fine (very small, but it's practically brand new, and we may end up homeschooling anyway when we do have kids), and the road that runs through town is pretty much only used by people going to the town.

As long as I've got a decent amount of land around me, I'm not overly concerned with future development. The area probably isn't going to be developed anytime soon, as a lot of the land is either in the current use program or is conservation land (which means that although it could eventually be developed, it would be extremely expensive to do so).

We have a friend who is a forester, so we can have him take a look at any land that we're interested in and get a good opinion on timber value.

Unfortunately, I do want "pretty" pasture. I'm probably not going to be getting livestock in the near future, and want pasture more for walking in and just enjoying for the moment, with future plans for horses and possibly a cow.

In Vermont, no zoning generally means no building permits (I thought that we would need a building permit anyway in this town, but from everything I understand, in the few towns in Vermont left with no zoning, there are no building permits required, but you do still have to follow state building regulations, which mostly apply to wastewater).

And again, the parcels I'm looking at are all 10+ acres, and we'd only end up clearing 2-4 acres of that. The particular parcel I'm interested in at the moment is 14 acres (and has a small cabin on it that would be perfectly livable while we build!), so even if we cleared 4 acres, we'd still have 10 acres of woods left. And, considering I want privacy, the fields likely won't be visible from the road or from neighboring property.

Thanks for all the input!

It sounds like you have found a great spot. :)

But...just an FYI on the no zoning regulations.

I grew up in a town in northern NH where the unthinkable happened...a neighbor moved in and put up a *HUGE* bill board advertising cigarettes. Of couse it was a bad business move on his part and the advertisement is now peeling, but at the time he thought a billboard in the middle of 'nowhere' was a good idea. It is now 25 years later and the bill board is still there because nobody in town wants to take it down...the person who originally put up the billboard has been gone for at least 23 years.

I hate regulation as much as anyone else, but sometimes zoning is a good idea.

It isn't hard to take down a billboard.

The WIND does it here all the time.

Well, Vermont has laws against billboards, so that's not a concern. Luckily the state laws around here are enough to keep anyone from doing anything too obnoxious without at least having public hearings first.

There's one town in particular that we're interested in because the taxes are insanely low for this area AND there's no zoning (which means no building permits, which means that we can build our papercrete house with no hassles).

Well, Vermont has laws against billboards, so that's not a concern. Luckily the state laws around here are enough to keep anyone from doing anything too obnoxious without at least having public hearings first.
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Is there a "double-standard" here?

I spent 6 years on a Colorado Planning Commission (Zoning Board). It seemed that people who moved in from "Back East" wanted a "Public Hearing" on everything, but I NEVER encountered one who was willing to pay the landowner for his "rights" that they were quite willing to "take" through the "public-hearing" process! :rolleyes:

When will people learn that when you take your neighbor's rights away......you give up your own rights? :shrug:

Bruce :)
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Here the state has laws about signs. They must be 33 feet measured from the road center-line [more if the road has more than two lanes].

We wanted to put up a series of short little signs like 'burma-shave signs' though with positive scriptural messages. Like one foot tall and two foot wide, on a post three or four foot tall.

We measured it out and found that on both sides of the road the forest starts at 22 feet from the center-line. So we would need to clear at least ten foot of forest growth along a little over a quarter mile of roadway.

That project fell to the bottom of our list.