question about GMO seed

If, for example, you are selling organic corn, you face a maximum allowable level of "contamination," be that chemical residue or GM-corn DNA. A zero percent contamination standard is not enforceable. From what I've read, the allowable contamination level for organic could be anywhere from 0.1 percent to 5 percent.

For corn, isolation planting is the best method to limit contamination. Even when you are plenting GM corn (e.g. Bt corn), you are required to maintain a 20 percent refuge requirement -- which you can plant as the outside rows. One of my neighbors is organic, and we coordinate rotations so as to help in isolation planting.

I haven't read any Monsanto brought cases on willful planting/sale of GM corn, again because of the preponderance of hybrid corn. From what I've read, it's an open question as to whether Monsanto has to prove "knowledge" AND 'intent" in such a case. Suppose, for example, I planted 5 acres of OP corn. Planned on feeding most of it to some butcher hogs but figured to save some of the best ears in the "seed box" attached to the triple box when I picked it in the fall. Suppose some of the corn became contaminated by a GM Roundup Ready corn. There are only two ways I would ever know it was contaminated: (1) I sprayed the field with Roundup and the corn didn't die (Hard to understand why I'd do this; and/or (2) I had the saved corn tested for GM contamination. I don't know the law on this issue well enough, but lots of people like to distort the rape seed case (Schmeiser) in Canada, and he knowlingly saved and sold seed he knew to be GM.

If someone can find a case where Monsanto sued a farmer growing OP corn for saving GM-contaminated seed, I would be interested to read it.

You can get a license from the variety owner to save and sell PVP-protected seed varieties; I do with seed oats.

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"Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the cornfield." Dwight D. Eisenhower

If you think that this contamination is the scary issue/big concern and aren't comfortable with alternative control methods such as isolation planting, then it would seem logical to advocate a terminator gene, which would render the GM-corn sterile and incapable of cross-pollinating. The uproar over this "terminator gene" approach was sufficient to get that strategy torpedoed

For example, in the Starlink case, the "contamination" could have just as easily been a combine or truck (or bin) not fully cleaned out, leading to GM corn to get mixed in.

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"Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the cornfield." Dwight D. Eisenhower

tooltime, thanks for the information and clarification.

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I understand that, but I'm confused as to where all this open-pollinated corn is being grown in close proximity to GM-corn, and also why isolation planting isn't a reasonable solution.

Are you familiar with the practices used to isolate and maintain purity in seed corn operations?

At the county level, my understanding that at least one county in California has banned the planting of GM seed.

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"Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the cornfield." Dwight D. Eisenhower

GMO is an emotional issue. Most of us don't like change and GMO seems strange. Very seldom would any pollen "escape" and pollenate ears of a OP crop. For one, very little OP corn is grown. Secondly, the GMO field would have to be right up next to GMO and that doesn't happen when the standard border planting of non-GMO is done.
It seems to me that people are looking for a way to get upset over things that don't really happen. Last year Monsanto planted some Round Up Ready alfalfa. A farmer that is strongly against GMO, plants organic alfalfa as close to the GMO as possible and then brings his "what ifs" to court, stopping the sale of GM alfalfa. This is a big country and I think if we'd try to get along, we could all benifit. If my neighbor was raising organic alfalfa seed (less than .001% of the alfalfa seed production in this country), then I'll plant my GM alfalfa in another field, further away. But my point is that these are rare and special situations. Some act like the world as we know it will stop if anyone, anywhere plants any GMO. At one time people were against iron plows because the iron would pollute the soil.
More likely than not, in many situations, my neighbor would be planting Round Up Ready corn just like mine and a buffer wouldn't be needed. Simply plant a buffer crop to protect the organic growers.
As far as "terminator genes", I'd think those that oppose GMO, would want the plant to be unable to spread. Seed saving really isn't an issue. Can't do it with the hybrid corn and strictly OP corn represents a fly speck of the total production.
Perhaps instead of us arguing about it, we should resist change and inovation. Let China use the latest methods. We could end up buying ethenol from China and wonder why this country is going to heck in a hand basket. Let's play it safe and just manufacture buggy whips while the rest of the world insures their energy independence.

Monsanto was the first company to my knowledge to develop Roundup Ready plants. At the inception there was no terminator crop, all of the harvested crop produced viable seed. HOWEVER when one purchased the Roundup Ready corn or soybean seed they signed an agreement that they WOULD NOT save seed to use in future years. Hence, there was not any need for any terminator type of product.

Because the Roundup Ready seed cost more because of paying for the research and technology some farmers took it upon themselves to use the bright idea to ignore their contract not to save seed, and instead did so.

Red flags are sent up when a farmer buys Roundup Ready seed for a couple of years and suddenly stops but continues to purchase Roundup. Monsanto began testing to see if farmers were indeed breaching their contracts and found that quite a number of them were. Solution---sue the farmers and also develop terminator crops to prevent this in the future.

If you had spent billions to research and develop a product I expect that you would want to protect it too.

Pure and simple---cheating farmers brought it upon everyone and now we have to live with it. Many blame Monsanto for all of this, I blame liars, cheaters and thieves in the form of scum farmers.

I don't have the expertise to answer your question but did want to provide you with the background for the terminator gene.

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That would be my family, they grow RR beans and bt corn, a terminator gene would make absolutely no difference to them.

If the plant doesn't set viable seed, then nobody can save seeds to plant in future years. Everyone would be forced to buy seed from them. No more heirloom varieties, no more saving seed from year to year, no more free choice, everyone will be forced to buy only what they offer, because all plants will be contaminated with their GE genes and become their patented property.

Sounds scary, but it's true. I've read pages and pages of information about this, including a page written by a scientist that used to work for them and quit when he discovered how dangerous a game they are playing.

I'd be interested in reading that if you can recall the article and/or author.

If you do a search on GE and/or GMO you'll find lots of information. My computer has crashed since I did my research so I lost all the links I had saved. I've also learned a lot watching shows on link TV. There is a female scientist in India that is fighting GMO's and educating farmers about the dangers of them. Many scientists around the world are warning of the dangers. Several countries around the world have banned them. It should be pretty easy to find a lot of information. I think there are several links in the Survival & Emergency Preparedness forum. Here's a couple links to get you started:

http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthr...&highlight=GMO

http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthr...&highlight=GMO

Since I never claimed isolation planting would drive cross-contamination to zero, I fail to see where any argument was defeated. I'm a farmer and have raised food-grade soybeans in the past that had to meet rigorous purity standards, and I live next to a farmer who grows organic corn, soybeans, alfalfa, oats and peas. In fact, he is surrounded by non-organic farms and consistently exceeds the purity standards set by the buyers of his crop.

It's simply ludicrous to try to legislate a zero pecent impurity standard, as the cost would be prohibitive. The organic food you buy very likely has trace chemical residue. We don't pass legislation regulating that industry reduce emissions to zero, nor do we spend enough on law enforcement to reduce the murder rate to zero. The marginal cost of such "zero tolerance" policies so far exceeds the marginal benefit that these standards are not imposed.

While you might from a philosophical perspective advocate for any organic or OP grower to plant crops and have a failsafe guarantee of zero contamination, implementing such a standard is not practicable.

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"Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the cornfield." Dwight D. Eisenhower

I understand that.

The 'time delay' portion of this is the confusing part. Why give a 1-2 year time delay? Either you can plant the seed or you can't.

It is typical for hybred corn especially to be stored by the seed companies themselves, re-graded & sold the following year. Keeps down their production costs.

The terminator part of this I can understand.

The 1-2 year time bomb part does not make any sense at all in the world of seed corn especially, and most seed crops in general.

There would only be bad things for the seed company with the time-delay part, as I can see it?

--->Paul

Tooltime, link to lawsuit over accidental contamination, near the bottom of the page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto
This one takes quite a while to download:
http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/p...ort1.13.05.pdf

Interesting article about wind pollination:
http://www.biotech-info.net/MH_pollen_movement.html

This is just speculation on my part, but the only reason I can think of for the timed release terminator part is to keep people from saving seed. If you buy seed to save, it will not stay viable so you are forced to buy MORE seed, thus, they make MORE profit.

Their plan is for all seeds to be produced in a lab instead of by natural methods. If they contaminate all natural plants, it will force everyone to buy from them. They will then own the patent on every plant on the planet. It sounds like an impossible goal, but they are well on the way to accomplishing it. They worked on it for many years before the public became aware of what they are doing, and even now, most people don't believe it when they hear it. Many people will wake up some day wondering how it happened. Others will remain clueless because they think food comes from factories instead of from the ground.

Scary isn't it?

We are talking field corn here I believe - no one saves seed, it is all hybred seed - it already does not reproduce itself true so you can't save seed to start with - sure the kernals grow, but they produce inferior, low yeild corn. So your whole argument - while possible for soybeans, or other crops - is moot for field corn..... Doesn't hold water.

I was thinking today - it could be a good thing for farmers. Now adays they spend $6 an acre to add Select-Max to the glysophate to kill off volinteer corn
in RR-soybeans.

So, if you could buy hybred RR-corn with the die-off thing for less than $10 a bag or so extra, it would save a farmer some money the following year - wouldn't need to add that $6 an acre spray into the tank mix.

--->Paul

I assumed we were talking homesteading seeds, not commercial production. I keep my land organic, no terminator seeds, no chemicals, no spraying. Sometimes I forget that other people do things other ways.

tooltime no confusion here i know op Open Pollinated corn can be saved. I also know most farmers use hybrid corn. There are a few people who still grow hundreds of acres of OP corn though and save it every year. While they may be few they do exist.
I know of two of them in my county one grows over 35000 acres the other im not sure as their fields are spread out and dont know the exact acreage of their farms.
And I dont want to even mention all the little organic farms of 500 acres or less around me that use OP corn. Everyones main concern is that their seed will cross pollinate with this terminator or time delay corn ad then they have a problem.