When is "snitching" not "stealing"?

I would not set a single foot on another person's property ..especially when they were not there, and would have no knowledge that I'd BEEN there. Case in point..2 and a half years ago I lost my homestead due to my ex husband.
On that property is a beautiful lilac bush which I dearly loved. In just a few weeks I'll be moving into a rental homestead on 12 acres..( 10 wooded)..

I want to plant a lilac bush..( Lord willing, there's a good possibility of me owning the place in just a few years). Now who would say that I had any "right" to drive on over to MY old place, walk across the front lawn and take several nice cuttings from the best lilac bush in the county? The folks who bought the place already cut down the gorgeous pussy willow tree, and several other lovely plants..so perhaps I COULD say that "they don't care about those plants"..

IMHO, that's be stealing, as well as trespassing on their property..boo, hiss, and spit on that notion. What I will do is drive on over there, knock on their door and ASK them if I may take some lilac cuttings. If they say ,"Yes", then oh happy day..and if they say ,"NO"..then it's "NO".

I don't give a hoot what local customs are, or what others do ..I only care what I do..and it had better be moral, ethical and legal..

Have you ever considered the fact that the neighbors may think YOU'RE the jerks? Perhaps they plowed everything under because you and your neighbors thought you had a right to whatever you wanted and they disagreed? Maybe it's your and your neighbors' hunt-through "custom," which is just another thinly-veiled attempt to justify trespassing. So ask yourself this: Does the fact that your neighbor thinks you're a jerk justify the above? I suspect your answer is "no," but then again, I'm sure you'll argue you've been the picture of reason and they're the jerks.

There's a difference between morality and legality, and you seem to think you've got the moral argument all buttoned up, which is awfully convenient for your purposes but transparent as all get-out. Legally, you ARE a thief and you are trespassing if you cross your toe over their property line without permission, period. The moral question is up for grabs, but I think there are some ways you can get a better bearing on both:

Just call the cops--actually call the cops in another town--and ask them what they think. Ask them how they believe the fact that the neighbors are jerks, rich, or martians affects the legality of your actions.

Ask 10 of your friends how they would feel if--while they were away--a parcel of their land was being visited regularly and harvested without permission and even after requests were made to stop.

Ask yourself why it is that you all aren't going do "help the plants" or grab an apple when the neighbors are there. Why is is suddenly unreasonable for you all to be there when they're there?

Seriously consider your mob mentality--just because everyone's hunting-through, hiking-through, or whatever doesn't mean it's right. Terming an action a "custom" does not a justified action make [see lynching reference above]. If you all wanted those heirloom rhubarb plants, that luscious asparagus, those blueberries and apples, then you should have ponied up the cash to buy the place. You didn't, or couldn't, and now you still want all of the bennies. As it stands--and as you've described the situation--you and your neighbors look like a bunch of class-envious, judgemental, self-righteous, entitled children.

abandoned is abandoned.... strip it.

its one of those things you have to think about for a few minutes, the degree of abandonment.
I pick apples in an orchard thats 'abandoned', but only in the sense no one tends the trees anymore. my neighbor runs cows there now and most of it is a an abandoned thicket.
in that case I asked em if he cared if I stripped a few apple trees.

there are apple trees along the road here with berry bushes. we dont ask, who would you ask? the TWp cuts the weeds and trims the trees along the road.

if you live bside a property thats not lived on, and people rarely if ever show themselves....
pick the apples. No one cares.

lets say they come there a few times a yr to have a beer party or use it as a hunting camp.
chances are, asking will just make a problem, no one cares, pick the apples.

these people seem to be the kind that would get off making your backward hillbilly life unpleasant if they caught you.

If...

stealing is a relative term with relative concepts.
purely speaking taking anything that you have no rightful claim to is stealing.
however some stealing is not viewed as stealing.

its like lying. A relative term.

I would call and asked if I could buy some of the plants off of them. They will probably tell you just to take some. I wonder if the people that came and took my chickens were snitching or stealing. Or my goats. Or my camping equipment.

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Sometimes the last minute is the best one.

No ruth the father said go steal the plants as part of his comments and that the plants had more rights than the jerks that owned them....not spin

reading comprehension

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What we have here...is a failure to communicate.

Lots of discussing, lots of excuses.
When you take something that is not yours without permission it is called theft. There isn't any excuse that will work. If you go across a persons property without permission it is treapassing.
Add it up any way you want and use any excuse that suits you but it is still trespassing and theft.
It isn't yours, you did not ask permission. You took another person's property.
The law is simple.
Use whatever excuse that works for you.

CN,

[its like lying. A relative term.
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False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil.]

Which do you believe?
Meg

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All life requires death to support itself. The key is to have an abiding respect for the deaths that support you. --- Mark T. Sullivan

Nel I'm impressed, you had a round table philosophical discussion with the whole tribe there... Excellent parenting, in my opinion.

there is a BIG difference between stripping sheep metal off a building thats "abandoned" and picking blueberry plant shoots from around a parent plant.

anyone posting biblical reasons why you cant steal, keep in mind the land you own was most likely, stolen after the owners were shot a few 100 yrs ago.

does time and a long chain of possession nullify that theft?

A little moral relativism, ignore the religious input and sprinkle it with logic.

pick 5 shoots, and in a few weeks 15 will grow in its place.
the owners should thank you for encouraging the mother bush to pop up more shoots, now they have more than they had before.

your not stealing, your actually giving!

Now, if I walked into your carefully manicured back yard and picked runners from your carefully tended bushes.... oops now thats just rude.

In the purist view, dumpster diving is stealing too.

well not if you think about it the right way.

Picking up pop cans along the road is stealing. it isnt your road. it isnt your job to pick up the trash. MAYBE the locals whos land borders the road want those cans, did you ask?

I mean, they are worth money..... more money than a bushel of wormy apples.

moral relativism, its good for you.

I don't know what a pointy head is! lol.

I do know this though: If anyone sets a foot on my property to do anything other than knock on my door to speak with me, he is trespassing. Maybe not according to the letter of the law but according to me, the property owner.

If someone finds themselves here having stumbled onto said property, they are safe. If their hands contain things while leaving that they did not contain coming in, they are theives and may need a good set of tweezers to get all the birdshot out of their... you know... rear end. There are only two ways to avoid this in that situation. The first is "zig" and the second is "zag".

It doesn't matter what the neighbors say, it matters what they property owners say but you haven't asked them so you don't know. To do the right thing, you either have to ask the property owners for the plants or just be happy with what you have. There is no real way to justify it.

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Dahc.

false words that directly damage other people or cause unrest/harm.

Lying is RELATIVE.
telling little joey his kitten ran away and not run over by daddy in the driveway
VS
Telling your wife you have never touched another woman as you walk out the door on your way to see your mistress.

Relative.

telling a child there is a santa VS telling them they are doomed to burn in hell for [insert biblical infraction here]

Relative.
Relative to how much harm the lie will inflict or the intent behind it.

without religion this is easy to understand, with religion its difficult or impossible.

So honestly, each side trying to debate the issue is pointless.
you either see it as a morally relative equation or a question of religious doctrine.

and you cant mix oil and water.

but shaking the jar to try can be fun for a while.
lol

If nel and her family hashed it out in open debate and settled on an answer, then they did good.

I'd snitch the blueberry plants. many more will grow back in their place. No harm done.
In fact, it probably did the mother plant some good!

If you still feel angst, stuff a few $1 bills in the bush for them to find.

mrs oz here

I don't think the point is that more shoots will grow after some are taken. The point is they are not their's to take. The end. What the item is also is not relevant. Still not their's to take. It's just so simple. ASK PERMISSION. Whatever the answer is.....abide by it. Their property, their blueberries, their decision. Good Luck!

but they might say no, and worse, begin to blame every moved twig on YOU.

why risk upsetting stupid people? they can be unpredictable.

you have already said that the property in question is posted....you enter that property without permission it is trespassing period. taking the plants without permission is stealing period i just don't understand why some people are finding that hard to comprehend....

I hesitate to bring religion into a discussion, and possible take what's been a fairly civil conversation downhill, but I'm going to have to ask you to clarify this. What I seem to be reading here is that you see two separate moral standards? Is that really what you're saying, or am I just horribly mistaken here?
Meg

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All life requires death to support itself. The key is to have an abiding respect for the deaths that support you. --- Mark T. Sullivan

oh no I'm not shackled with a religious doctrine....

I mean you either see it as debatable or you see it as set in stone.

its posted?
well that does add a twist to the equation....
you better go to wal mart and buy some new plants.
people post property because they do care about the weeds.

mrs oz here

So since they might say no, you should what? Go ahead and take the shoots anyway? And asking should not raise suspicion that you are doing something sneaky. To the contrary, you're being upfront and honest..........which is always the best policy. Otherwise things usually come back to bite you.

this is a good opportunity to teach your children what "situational ethics" is.

What is YOUR stance....anybody? is it right for a rich man to steal a loaf of bread? How about a poor woman with starving children? SITUATIONAL ETHICS!!

A spade is a spade, right is right, wrong is wrong, anything else is for the Court of Rationalization and Justification to decide. It is my belief that this is a major part of what is wrong with this country now. Everyone wants what they want and will justify why it is "right" to have it.

Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

berta

Nel frattempo - As I posted on page 2, you are trying to rationalize stealing from your part-time neighbors whom you do know how to contact, yet you refuse to talk to them in order to get permission to do what you want - when you want. Can you say selfish!!!!!! What a way to teach your children on how to become a responseable adult!!!!

If I caught you or your kids on my posted 80 acres just passing thru, helping yourself to shoots, etc, you better be prepared to be looking at the wrong end of a firearm.... In 2004, I caught a burglar at gunpoint who tried to justify his actions using your rationale. I had him at gunpoint, called the County Sheriff's Office, and had him arrested. Or should I have let him walk away with his arms full of my belongings. The burglar was smart enough to comply with my orders to "Halt", "lay on the ground", and "if you so much as twitch before the Sheriff's Deputy gets here I might have to use appropiate force"!!! I am a Veteran of the US Marine Corps in my mid to late 40's, and I will be darned if I will tolerate a thief or tresspasser here - no matter what the reasoning behind their actions. Local Customs yeah, right!!!!! No wonder I legally carry a concealed weapon when I go out the door here on my hilltop.... For folks like you that think they can just wander thru due to the local customs... OK, I hope that you are ten feet tall and bulletproof. I guarantee - that I will find a way to discourage you from doing it a 2nd time!!!!!!!

I can not believe all of the folks here who advocate trespassing and taking another's property. What a way to teach morals and good judgement to your children, by sneaking onto another persons property and help your self to their belongings. I don't care what the local custom is!!!!! Theft and Tresspassing is a CRIME!!!!!! No wonder the younger generation has little morals and bad judgement, from the lessons learned from their parents while being homeschooled, no less!!!!!!! And folks bad mouth public schools - I went to public schools in the Detroit area, before I joined the US Marine Corps.. Yet I do not steal or tresspass at all!!!!

It makes me very glad that you live across the country from the west coast with your "local customs".... I have a local custom on my posted private property of 80 acres - you trespass, you get welcomed at gunpoint/ maybe with a bayonet attached and then you get to have a talk with law enforcement!!! Which may include a 1 way ride to jail. By the way - I do work with the local law enforcement on occasion, and today I asked my friend - a Lieutant on the Sheriff's Department about this. Here, you do not pass go, your rear is going to jail if I press charges for being on posted property, let alone with your helping yourself to anything here (plants, equipment, soil, or even rocks)!!!!!!

Nel frattempo - In the beginning of this thread, you alluded that your part time neighbors may be involved in drugs. Yet you are quick to judge others, to justify your own illegal activities of tresspassing and theft... I hope you enjoy a possible encounter with your local law enforcement while helping yourself to another's property - regardless of your area's local customs.... What a lesson to teach your children. My parents would have beaten my behind till I could not sit for a month, if I had ever engaged in such activities of tresspassing/ theft as a child/ young adult!!!!!!!!!

Let's see your rationalization for Tresspassing and Theft onto your neighbor's property once again while they are not there, yet you can contact them as you admitted earlier!!!!!!

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Smarter than the average bear, sitting here on my hilltop 80 acres in the fog above the ocean...

"Life is tough, but it is tougher when you are stupid." - John Wayne

I think I'm more confused than before. I wasn't really intending to ask about your personal beliefs on religion, just a clarification on the original comment about a "morally relative equation or a question of religious doctrine."

However, I think that my pursuing this topic here is unfair to the OP. Perhaps we can discuss it in GC later?

Meg

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All life requires death to support itself. The key is to have an abiding respect for the deaths that support you. --- Mark T. Sullivan