When is "snitching" not "stealing"?

GoldCountryGal: Son #2 would like to know if someone does not know the local customs, does that render the custom invalid? Or if someone does not know a custom when they move to an area should the others not continue to follow the old rules?

He likes your reply above and wanted me to let you know that (this is true but not funny - but he finds it funny) our first year here I pulled out a gun and pointed (I did not know he was out there but still it was not a good thing that I did and we learned a VERY valuable lesson that night) it at a neighbor who was behind our barn hunting. We were informed that night of the local custom of "hunting thru" and what it meant.

We did not know of the local custom of "cutting thru" / crossing over / hunting over / and that some folks still come around and on the properties back here even tho they know someone else now legally owns it.

But even though we did not know the custom, that did not make the custom invalid, it just meant we were ignorant (lacking in knowledge of ) of the custom.

The property owners where the plants are located do not know of the customs since they are not only not here enough but they have actively made it known they care nothing for the local people nor do they want to get to know anyone. I would guess that would include they would not care for any local custom......but whether or not that renders it invalid.....I am not sure there. (but crossing over and cutting thru customs do not include any right to cut and carry off portions of plants)

I like your point that we should respect the rights of others even if we do not like them! Great point! The "local people" who have taken the plants have done so since they do not respect the "city folks" who own the place now. Our family has discussed how much respect and what type respect do we have for them even though we do not "like" them. We do not have "respect" for them as people, however this topic lends itself for readily to LEGAL respect and property rights.

I think the property rights portion of this is what is upsetting most folks? Am I right or am I still missing the point?

Mike in Ohio seems upset enough to call me bad, rude names and that must mean it is an important issue to him (and others) since there is no other reason to call me names?

This morning when I first started to read the responses, I thought it was a religious swelling and that some felt it was a great Religious moral wrong to steal.....and that of course is an important portion of it.....but the Property Rights seems to be what is causing most of the "huffing and puffing"?

So -- where are we now -- does ones own Property Rights and strong feelings about their own Property Rights make them more vigorously defend the perceived Property Rights of others (even of those who may or may not be "jerks"!)??

When we asked the same first question of the other two groups we found:

- those who lived in larger cities and who owned smaller portions of land, especially those who lived in suburban areas like subdivisions more vigorously said no do not take the plants and more vigorously said we should not "trespass"
- those who lived in the "country" or who owned larger tracts of land, said "maybe" to whether or not to take a plant and more "maybe's" to whether or not it was "trespassing"
- those who garden or Farm were more likely to say take the plants and or they were more likely to say we "should" still go hike, etc (trespass)
- but most said try to ask first
- those who knew us personally were more likely to say take the plants but not because they knew us, the reasons stated were that they knew of our gardening methods and knew we would not kill the Mother plants
- those who had been on the receiving end of a "trespass" or a thief from their own property were more likely to say no don't take plants

Thanks Moosemanian for the compliment about parenting! With a child throwing up all day I will take any encouragement I can get!

This is a very interesting discussion!

Walking across someone's property may in fact be trespassing, I'll give you that, but Nel did not take any plants. It is a classroom discussion plain and simple.

How about showing Nel's kids what grown ups act like during a discussion instead of acting like inner city public school kids! (yeah, I know, it's a generalization - so sue me!)

Ruth

It's a crime, plain and simple.

I once lived in a neighborhood (city of around 30,000 people) where apparently the local custom was to help yourself to others' property, including if it was in a vehicle or behind a locked door/window. My pickup was broken into twice and my apartment was broken into once, with cash and other possessions stolen. I stopped the second break-in to my truck but took a pounding and only subdued one of the three scumbags by the time the cops arrived. Seemed like the law trumped local custom, and I was sure glad to move.

I was talking about this with my Mom, and she said: Someone who lived into town wouldn't walk into a neighbor's house and help themselves to food in the fridg and other items that didn't look like they were being used, how is this any different.

If taking some blueberry shoots can be rationalized, what's to stop you from rustling a few feeder pigs or some beef calves from the pasture? If your neighbor has breeding stock, they'll be more, right?

To me, this seems to sort of go against the grain of "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's house."

__________________
"Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the cornfield." Dwight D. Eisenhower

Very well put....and without name calling or being judgmental. Imagine.

Ruth

I have nieces and nephews who live in lower Manhattan. They don't take trespass and take other people's property in the city and they don't trespass and help themselves to other people's property when they come visit us. There are honest and dishonest people everywhere. If there aren't any thieves in the country, I guess it was those pesky elves who stole an anhydrous applicator and 100 plus new steel fence posts from the machine shed on my other farm.

When adults ask for people's opinions, they really shouldn't complain when they get them unvarnished. Adults also recognize the futility of blowing a gasket when someone disagrees with their view.

Property rights are going to be a hot-button issue, and I can understand why. Some of us have to deal with the consequences of people who think this is acceptable.

__________________
"Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the cornfield." Dwight D. Eisenhower

Tooltime, property rights is a big issue, particularly with our government taking them away. But I believe Nel is doing the right thing by having a serious discussion with the kids about the issue. Sounds to me like her kids are pretty smart, but remember they are kids and still have a lot to learn. How else to learn, but to discuss.

Trespassing is an issue too, but who here has never, ever crossed someone's property without leave? As long as there's no destruction or vandalism, insinuating it's a serious crime is nuts. Wrong, maybe, but I've had people come from the back of my property, and other than a sharp talking to by me or DH, there's been no problem with them. I certainly won't call them "criminals".

Ruth

First, I went back through all of Mike in Ohio's posts and could not find one where he called names. Was that deleted?

Edited to add: This is the only comment addressed here:


>>>Mike in Ohio seems upset enough to call me bad, rude names and that must mean it is an important issue to him (and others) since there is no other reason to call me names?<<<

I simply didn't remember any name calling, and couldn't find the post referred to. Seemed a bit out of character for Mike, so I wanted to read it.

Yep, you nailed it with 'property rights'. With the purchase of property comes the expectation of your using it how you choose, within the law, of course. And an expectation of privacy of use.

Not how the neighbors think you should use it. Not how much privacy your neighbors think you should have.

So, custom must make way for law.

Meg

__________________
All life requires death to support itself. The key is to have an abiding respect for the deaths that support you. --- Mark T. Sullivan

Didn't say he called names, I said Tooltime didn't call names.

Ruth

Geez. Holding the discussion is good parenting. You've been learning to spin I see.

Ruth

[QUOTE=Nel frattempo]GoldCountryGal: Son #2 would like to know if someone does not know the local customs, does that render the custom invalid? Or if someone does not know a custom when they move to an area should the others not continue to follow the old rules?

He likes your reply above and wanted me to let you know that (this is true but not funny - but he finds it funny) our first year here I pulled out a gun and pointed (I did not know he was out there but still it was not a good thing that I did and we learned a VERY valuable lesson that night) it at a neighbor who was behind our barn hunting. We were informed that night of the local custom of "hunting thru" and what it meant.

We did not know of the local custom of "cutting thru" / crossing over / hunting over / and that some folks still come around and on the properties back here even tho they know someone else now legally owns it.

But even though we did not know the custom, that did not make the custom invalid, it just meant we were ignorant (lacking in knowledge of ) of the custom.

QUOTE]

Hunting thru???? that is not a custom that is someone's idea of an excuse to trespass. If the property in question is posted hunting thru is still trespass punishable if caught by the laws of the state or county the offense occurs.

I'm in the country on 30 acres. The man I bought this place from originally owned 300 acres that has been divided up. I'm on good terms with all of the surrounding land owners, so asking them if I can pick berries, use their trail, etc... isn't any big deal. They give me the same consideration - one neighbor hunts our woods and another picks mushrooms for sale back there. (I have a food allergy to mushrooms, so don't eat them myself)

It wouldn't occur to me to knowingly cross another's land without permission, or to pick fruit without permission. I grew up in the country on a working farm and remember people stopping and filling up the back of their truck with almonds, grapes, or apples. That was stealing, plain and simple. That fruit belonged to my father, and taking it was just the same as taking money out of his wallet. If they had asked, he would have given them boxes of produce with no problem. But they didn't ask, so they got to hang around and talk to the sheriff.

That's what forms alot of my current opinion. Watching people think nothing of stealing from my Dad when I was growing up.

As to "hunting through" or "cutting through". People do that here, but only with permission. That permission is as easy to get as knocking on the door or calling and saying "hey, do you mind if I use your trail from the ridge to the road?"

Only a fool would hunt through or cut through without permission, especially at night. They'd likely get shot.

Oh that's great, set them up and then swoop down like a vulture to pick over the carcass. I hope that none of ya'll advocating theivin, tresspassin or setting up stings ever decide to move down our way. You would not be even a little bit welcome.
I say if you want the plants you spied for have the guts to ask the neighbor for them---might even want to appologize for the snooping at the same time.

As for setting them up with the law, maybe they could drop a few pot seeds in your car or house and then pick them up for a song when the feds auction it off after seizing it under zero tolerance laws. That way you benefit from not having to pay for tuneups on your car or pay to have the house painted when it needs it since you'll be benefiting from having your property taken care of by the neighbors, and they'll be benefiting by getting a cheap vehicle and house at auction. Think of the headaches they can save you by setting you up.

__________________
"Only the rocks [and really embarassing moments] live forever"

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands..." tick-tick-tick

Wow again - just wow! Lets see......no one said anyone over there was using drugs, and I did not tell my kids to go steal the blue berry! Again this is a DISCUSSION about the plants and property rights and now....at this point it has also become a discussion about why adults on a web site would respond to a strangers questions for comments in such passionate and upset manners.

As to the "name" I was called by "Mike in Ohio" - I think it was "pointy head" which although I do not know what it means, it does not sound very nice!

All that aside - during the "break" I decided to ride over to a neighbors' house. They have lived here forever and his Mother is one of the old people who took some plants already ( his brother took a few also ). I asked him to "hold forth" about the Trespassing portion of the discussion, "hunting thru", hiking thru, wild crafting, and such. Then I called two more of the "local folks" who have lived here their whole lives.

They say that "trespassing" is not when we have hiked over the property in question, it is OK around here to hike over other's land UNLESS they have posted it or asked you not to do so, and that no one would consider it "trespassing" for us to hike over their land. (this of course does not answer for the owners of the property that holds the blue berry but I wanted to ask about the rest of the lands to be sure I was not off base) Most of the people know where to hike, hunt, fish, and so forth. They also said that no one of the "local folks" would consider it stealing to take the blue berry that have "sucked" or the shoots but they ALL said no one would touch the Mother plants since "that ain't right" -- so they too draw a line at a different place than most here seem to draw it.

I am wondering why that is? In spite of what some here say, we are not thieves nor criminals here and we are good people. Why would we have a more relaxed view of what is trespassing than those here and why would some of us on this end believe it would be OK to take the blue berry and yet so many here seem passionately against it for any reason?

It is an interesting discussion - much more so than we first thought. The boys are amazed at how many people have voiced an opinion and we thank you all for your input to the debate. Good ideas and interesting positions.

What is a "pointy head"?

Hi Nel, Good Questions from Son #2 on local customs. Here are my thoughts - not sure if it answers the questions completely. I think if you do not know about the custom, it does not makes the custom invalid, it just means that you are not following that custom. Once you know about the custom, you also have the opportunity to decide whether or not to follow it. I think following customs is optional not mandatory. In this case, where the custom may be contrary to what some may perceive as their legal property rights, I think it is important not to assume that the landowner is in agreement with the local custom. If I had been that hunter behind your barn and you were new in the area, I would have checked with you first and not assumed you were in agreement with the custom or it could have been hazardous to my health! You know the old saying about assuming...

Good Luck with the homeschooling! Sounds like you are doing a great job.

http://www.profquotes.com/home.php?page=122&subject=all

Also I remember hearing that comment made on an old Saturday Night Live TV program.

Precisely the answer! No other would do. God put the plants where they are and believe you me, he knows all, sees all. I'm sure if he wanted you to have blueberry plants, he'd have moved them over to your yard.

Tresspassing is just that. That is what you are doing unless you have PERMISSION.

Your excuses are "rationalization theatre" at its best!

Pat

Been really reading this and it has been kept pretty civil.
My thoughts on it are beings they do have 1 no trespassing sign up it is considered trespassing.
is it considered stealing in a way yes it is as there has been no direct permission from the owners that anyone my take the blueberry suckers. It being a custom as nothing to do with trespassing.
You might contact the ag dept. and see if they offer any plants for use as windbreaks or shelterbelts they might have blueberrys on their list. Here in Sask canada we get ours through the power company (Saskatoon Berries) just fill out a app. and they give as many as you want if they are available. I think it is a good idea to have your husband call and ask them. all they can say is yes or no. but also at the same time offer them that you will clear out the dead fall that is falling on the mother plants to stop a possible fire hazard.
on a side note we have a huge shelterbelt of Old Fashion Lilacs that I trim back every year. That I wish someone would take all the suckers that grow up from them (LOL)_
Its a good discussion
you are have with your family more parents need to do such things
Oh and we live in the country closest neighbor is 2 miles either direction

Appway