When is "snitching" not "stealing"?

Excellent thread and discussion for the kids- will discuss with DD14 (DD6 already covered what she can handle in 3 sentences with her).

Some ecowearriors- the Rose Rustlers etc- liberate or keep alive neglected/'abandoned' plants. If an evil developer (think a cartoon villain) prefers to kill off a breed of plants rather than let people remove them before bulldozing, I would admittedly violate his property rights (albeit might have a valid defense in court if true plant extinction going on) if I could work up the energy.

I do agree the landowners may well have destroyed the garden to decrease the flow of trespassers. I would likely do the same if I couldn't be sure I could keep the crops to myself as I would want.

Sadly I have experienced being told no: I left a note (and lady opened door as I left it) at a home with lovely white bearded iris, down here where not all bearded iris do so well, asking if I could get divisions. Poor lady is just widowed, the iris were her DH's pride, and she was very glad to tell me about him and them and assure I could call her about getting some later (after sorting out best time to divide). She called my DH before I even got home to say she'd discussed it with her stepchildren and they didn't want her sharing any of them. I'm still unsure if the stepchildren are down on her and want to rescue their dad's stuff from her getting rid of it, or protecting an old lady they fear is too friendly with strangers. If I were really desperate for the iris I'd call back and ask if I could BUY some (she may've meant that's what they plan with them) but would no doubt frighten the lady. Lord hope noone ever steal the iris- they'd come check my yard first! (Actually her neighbor across the street has some- will consider asking that neighbor next year if I still want iris... as she told me her DH ((unlike his kids)) loved sharing his plants.)

Just ask! You'ld be suprised what you can do if you just ask. Besides its not on your land and is not yours.

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, act alone, design a building, write a sonnet,fight efficiently and die gallantly."- R. A. Heinlein

Me too Bob...me too. And its sad actually.

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What we have here...is a failure to communicate.

Well, the only time you have to worry about me stealing your stuff is if its a life-threatening emergency and the stuff's gonna go bad before you get back to use it anyway.

I mean, if a busload of kids rolls over in front of your house and you're not home and there's no cellular signal, are you gonna prosecute someone who breaks into your home to phone for help if they offer to pay for the damage due to breaking in?

I do think that situational ethics can be valid; absolutism in that case would say to let folk die in the wreck rather than kick in a door and 'stealing' a phone call.

Medical Emergency's are a different story. Mercy Flight can land their helicopter on your lawn if there is no other place to land it if there is a serious car accident in front of your house. You could probably sure for tresspassing but I don't think anyone would or ever will. A police officer can chase a criminal across your land without asking first if time is of the essence. This is a different story, a simple case of tempation. My barn looks abandoned, the contents inside also look abandoned. I have machines in there that haven't been used in 40+ years and if someone stole parts off them I would be very angry. What if they are planning on digging the shoots thgemselves and selling them at auction? What if they are trying to grow a blueberry forest? Who knows?, the point is they aren't yours so don't even think about taking them unless you want to deal with the consequences of stealing.

Well said, that is how I do it where I live. My land is abutted by people who come a few times a year to hunt or to relax. I maintain their property and they let me use it.

Well,I wouldn't do it. To me,taking something that isn't mine is stealing. Sneaking onto someone's property without their permission is trespassing.
I don't think I could justify my actions by placing the blame on other people. It doesn't matter to me if they're city folks,naked folks,party folks,or whatever. The only actions I worry about are my own. And,I don't want anything unless it's honestly earned or freely given.

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When thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee ~ Isaiah 43:2

What!? Where?

Ruth

Nel, for your homeschool logbook:

Lessons learned.
Trespassing is a crime.
Stealing is a crime.
If you won't ask, you can't just take.
Some adults are just mean and would rather judge than discuss for the sake of a lesson.

Ruth

My first farm in KY was the origional farm house of many acres. Later cut up by the father to give to his kids, and I bought the origional house when they passed. That first spring, many old locals would walk way back into the woods, and come back out. Finially, I had to know what they were looking at! I walked over and asked the fellow, had his hat upside down in his hands. He said Mushrooms! We talked for quite a while, and I learned allot of history about the place. Never did it cross my mind he was tresspassing! They all had hunted mushrooms all over this area all their lives. Whoever finds them first gets them!

People welcomed me to the area, loved the fact that I had animals, chickens etc, again at the origional home. They went and 'hunted' the woods in peace. I think the key here is they were local people, lived here all their lives, not young punks tearing up the place, or stealing stuff.

Blueberry shoots, mushrooms, plant cuttings, are not stuff someone has bought in a store. Funny, all the years I lived there, never locked my farmhouse, nothing was ever stolen, nothing. I felt allot safer with the locals wandering all over the land, they knew in a flash if something was out of place, or a stranger was around. I met many wonderful folks because of them mushrooms! They did not 'hurt' anything.

My mom and I, in WV, when I was young, used to go hunt gensing in the woods. We would go for miles and miles. Had a blast. No one ever got mad, everyone did it.

Where we are now, we have one neighbor. We saved his little cabin from burning to the ground a few summers ago. (they dumped wood stove ashes in the wrong place and left). This last fall, we asked him to pitch in for gas money grading the half mile road, cost $200. Not even twenty bucks would he give us. Times sure have changed, many not all for the better. IMO allot of the replys were pretty harsh just for blueberry plant shoots. Especially when they have taken care of them for years.

If I had posted signs and told everyone to stay out, I would not have been welcomed into the 'family' of locals. I would have been seen as a rude, stingy person who didn't fit in. Plus, we had to tresspass when we saved the cabin from burning, right? (the fire would have spread for miles up here, it was very windy and hot) Were we wrong to do so? He had signs.......I also tresspassed over there when I saw a little dog. Looked in the paper, saw a lost ad, went and got the dog, and owners came to get him....being a local, I knew it was not their dog.

If they were my kids, I would want them to walk away with the following lesson.

If you want something, here's what you should do:

1) Get a job.
2) Save the money you get paid for the job.
3) Find a business or individual that will exchange the money you've earned for the object you want.
4) Once a mutually agreed-upon price is established, fork over your cash and go home happy with your new possession.

I really wish fewer people were looking for ways around this process and felt free to wander around other people's hard-earned property, examining their possessions to see what they might like and how to get it, other than paying for it.

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"I'm not mean. You're just a sissy." - Happy Bunny

"I think you should be able to flush anything you want. Just don't call me when your toilet clogs." - BlueHeron Farm

Good morning! Class in session! Some of you have earned "extra credit"
points over -night!

Cindy In Ky: Wonderful points! You explain our situation closely.

Jenn: The roserustlers sound interesting! I hope they do not get in the same trouble as the Earth First folks do! The blue berry in question are "endangered" species. They are "sister" plants to two we have on our property and to 3 owned by woman down the road. All the Adult/Mother plants were purchased together back in the 1970's or early 80's from "heritage stock" plants that are no longer available. No one, yet, remembers the name. We have letters out to two surviving people who may know the name so we can properly identify the plants.

Comfortably: You earn point for good humor and attitude!

Now to recap:

#1 No one here has stolen any of the blue berry plants that started the DISCUSSION! None. No plants. No shoots. NONE - so stop calling me names assuming I have stolen something because no one in this house has stolen. Even those members of this house who first stated they believed it OK (morally and or legally) to go and take portions of the plants, have NOT taken anything. It is a DEBATE over the legal and moral issues surrounding property rights. It is a Philosophy and Legal Property Rights Class.

(And, by the way, in case this makes any difference to anyone - I am a Lawyer. My husband is a Lawyer. We have already checked and we know what is Legally "trespassing" around here and what we have done is NOT - repeat NOT - trespassing! Just to clear that one up. Yes, if we take any of the blue berry plants or shoots, it is "stealing." but even a "taking" of a portion of the plants in question, may not be actionable or punishable "stealing" - that would take too long to explain. For the purposes of this Class, the DISCUSSION was to debate all issues - moral and legal - as to the taking of any of the specific plants first mentioned.)

#2 For heavens sake, I never = repeat NEVER = said anyone was on drugs, using drugs or growing any drugs! Stop it! That part is not funny! The naked part is funny!

#3 Yes, there are two small "no trespassing" signs posted at their "main" gate in. However, it is on MY LAND! I do not have any "no trespassing signs" up for 39 of my 40 acres. Their driveway/gate goes over "right of way" strip that is on my land. Local folks, me included, explained to them that the sign they put up is in the wrong place. They did not "get it" and did not care. Law Enforcement officials told them it was in the wrong place and they did not "get it" nor did they care. The signs should be posted on the outside edges of their property where "cross overs" would meet their border. They also need signs at two other sections where locals are know to "cross over" but they have chosen not to mark their lines where local custom and legal procedure would dictate they do so.

Since they have failed, KNOWINGLY failed, to follow both proper local custom and Laws, they currently have no protection from "cross over" and currently the local people continue to "cross over" as needed, HOWEVER, out of respect for them (since local folks now know they do not want hunting - but that is another story) NO ONE hunts on their land and no one fishes........they just "cross over"

#4. My kids, all three, have jobs and earn money. They have no need to go steal the blue berry plants. They are (and 4 to 6 other Homeschoolers who are following this debate) DISCUSSING property rights and moral issues and doing a good job at it too. They say thank you again to everyone here who offered opinions, suggestions and even to those of you who seem upset/mad/tense about the topic. That too (the emotion expressed) has been great for our Discussions.

#5. We are in the process of looking up more Laws concerning "open space" / "cross overs" / "trespassing" / and stealing too! The topic was to cover one week but we now have enough material for all summer!

#6 My husband has agreed that he will be the one to "ask" and see what happens. Someone last night said I did not know how to reach them, but that is not the case. We do "know" these people, we do call them on occasion, we do not like them but that is neither here nor there, we do see them when they are here (if we cannot avoid it), and so he will call them and "ask" - at the same time he plans to "ask" for money to pay for their portion of the road costs! We shall see what happens.

#7 I have declared a "truce" for now - here at this house - about the specific plants in question. Translation: I have told the kids that no one may go and fetch any blue berry plants. We have agreed the topic is open for DISCUSSION and we will continue our class and wait to see what they say after my husband calls them up.

THANK YOU to everyone for a great debate and for opening many more points to this than we originally anticipated! Good work opening our minds to other possibilities! Thank you and we will check back later.

P.S. Lawyer jokes welcome but please lets keep this on topic and leave the mean lawyer bashing out of it. Bashing is boring.

Where are my points?

I work for lawyers...they know the best and meanest of all the lawyer jokes.

Ruth

By the way, Nel. I posted an animal activist thread. There might be another topic for class discussion.

Ruth

Having worked with attorneys for so many years and having read all of the posts on this thread, I have to ask you, Ruth...does this actually sound like an attorney to you?

I apologize if I am wrong about this, but...I doubt it, personally.

And this is just getting worse and worse. From the very first post, the OP made it sound crystal-clear that this was someone else's land...and now it isn't. Now it's the OP's land that's just posted wrong.

I smell a really big rat.

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"I'm not mean. You're just a sissy." - Happy Bunny

"I think you should be able to flush anything you want. Just don't call me when your toilet clogs." - BlueHeron Farm

Aw, Twix, I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. She says it's a homeschooling project and I'm going with that. Even if there's more to it, maybe this thread has sharpened some moral skills. Either way, it's been beneficial.

And, yeah...like lawyers are the most honest people!

Ruth

Bunny Slave: I did not say it was not their land. I said they put "no trespassing" signs on MY LAND. They do own the land upon which the plants grow. It is unfortunate you are smelling a "rat" but remember - this is a DISCUSSION and not some Legal Brief to be turned in by noon.

Ruth - sorry - I will add your extra credit points to the list! I did not see the news last night but one of the kids said Earth First or some other group rammed boats at the G8 Summit. I will look at your other post too. We enjoy the Lawyer jokes too. Kids think they are funny.

I wonder how the ABA or your SBA would feel about your "interpretation" of the law. I wonder how your actions would be perceived by a judge or client. I wonder how you could possibly balance your duty to your clients with your brand of moral relativism. Interesting.

Perhaps you and your dh should post your license numbers so buyers can beware.

Oh for pete's sake! It was a classroom discussion!!!!!!!!!

Ruth

Would you go and save the blueberries if the neighbors were on their property?

If you and your husband ARE attorneys,how do you feel about an attorney advocating a crime?