Under the table sales
 

Those of you that actually earn $20k or more per year off of farm sales, do any of you simply keep it as cash sales off the books? Rather than deduct everything, file forms, join groups (livestock registries, scrapies programs, etc)... anyone do it all on a cash basis? Like income from eggs, honey, garden produce, greenhouse seedlings, etc.

Yes I know farm income is supposed to be reported. Can I insert a bit of Valley Speak here and say... "whatever"!

The Wandering Quilter's Life in a Box!

Sometimes it is easier to just keep it on a cash basis and forget everything else. No reporting the money made and no reporting the cost of doing business. No tax problems at all. Most times the amount you make will vary from season to season and year to year. Many small homesteaders do it this way and have no problems.

I think if you are small time it would be ok to pocket a few bucks under the table sure.
But if you are running yourself as a legitimate business its probably not a good idea. I keep tight books of every little cost and every little penny I make so I want good clean books so I know for sure what I am doing wrong or right and where my money is going and coming from. If I pocket some money and don't write it down I will probably forget and then I will be wondering the rest of the year if I did it right or not.
So again for small time non professional I think its fine or if you are just starting out its ok. but professional business no not a good idea.

Of course I realized after posting this... who in their right mind would admit it if they did? :p :nono: :p

The Wandering Quilter's Life in a Box!

Bingo!

"Render unto Ceaser........"

I have never met anybody named 'Seizer". Nor do I care to.

That is Unamerican! Of course, no one does that.....perhaps in error, MAYBE!

I can't believe that anyone would consciously consider shorting the gov't that way!

Unless you are a big time farmer, you probably can list ALL sales and have it mostly offset by legitimate expenses. I list ALL sales as income, then use all the allowable expenses, including depreciation, mileage, phone use, etc. I usually end up not paying any federal tax, although state tax is always there. I also pay social security tax which I must do even when there is no federal income tax due. The secret to not paying taxes is to not make much money. Does that tell you how low my income is?

If memory serves, Caesar was the title of the guy next in line to be Emperor. Does that mean render to Cheney?

I make my living selling the pottery I make at art fairs. I know that some fellow artists keep it all under the table but I always figured that I'd hate to have somebody get miffed at me for some reason and blow the whistle to the IRS. So like anniew I do the whole thing, keep books, collect sales tax and report it all. That way I can sleep easy. And yes, by keeping track of all deductable expenses I end up not having to pay a whole lot of tax, just enough to look honest to the IRS.

We actually honestly report everything that we are supposed to report. Kind of old fashioned, I guess. I just would be ashamed of myself if I started going down the road of "one little lie doesn't count". I don't care if I don't like the IRS. I'd no more lie about $0.10 or reportable income than I'd rip off a grocery store checker for $0.10. I just don't believe that "getting ahead" that way would do anything other than put me behind in areas that matter more than money.

Lynda

"I have never met anybody named 'Seizer". Nor do I care to.:

My doctors told me to avoid "Siezures" at all cost.

Seems like more trouble to not declare it than to just keep one set of books/records. Maybe if you earn a lot it would have some reward for the risk??? Most farms that never declare a profit, aren't auditied here, they just declare your operation as unviable and you lose your ability to write off expenses.

Under the table
 

Whether anyone does this or not is not really the question in my opinion. If they are not adding to their Social Security account through self employment tax will come back to bite them. I know that many of you think Social Security will not be around so it doesn't matter--perhaps.

Same here....some things are more important than money.

If I was going to pay taxes on my farm sales and trades, the government is not going to cheat me, because I am going to claim everything just like a business.

THE BUMPUS FARM LLC

My wages, gasoline, feed, seed, fertiliser, land cost, office building and supplies,
animals bought sold and the ones that die, including burial.

Equipment costs and right offs, etc. etc. etc.

Everything on my property it needed to make me profit so I will claim it and it's cost.

I only pay taxes on the profit.

When I am done I will show a legal loss, or a profit fit to be taxed.

Know the real tax laws.

Make your farm a business.

Right off everything ! ! !

But if I sell only 2 dozen egg and nothing else, who do I send the tax forms to H and R Block ?

NOT ME.

bumpus
.

They want you to claim any work you did for free.... like if you do your nice old lady neighbor a favor, she is supposed to figure out the value of your work and then claim it. I bet most of you don't do that :P

And "seizur" .. is that one who seizes??

Bless you! Need a tissue?

"They" want a lot of things; Doesn't mean they'll get it.

Ruth

I'm not a tax attorney, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about that in the instructions or on the tax forms, and a quick search of the IRS site does not reveal anything about it. Now they DO want you to claim andy work you did for barter or any type of compensation, but I can not find anywhere that we are to pay tax on our random acts of kindness.

Yep. Works for God and the tax man...and in that order!

Good for you! I wish there were more people with this kind of honest outlook rather than the "get over on people" attitude so common today.

What a refreshing post.

Hmmm, 23 years working in Federal prisons? Do I want to take a chance on living there for a few years over a few dollars in taxes? NOT!!! And if you think you're slick, just remember, after all was said and done the only they ever successfully prosecuted Al Capone or John Gotti for was TAX EVASION!!

Actually, Gotti was convicted of 13 counts of murder and several other crimes including tax evasion, but I agree with your principle. I'm not risking going to prison to save a few bucks, as much as I despise paying unreasonable taxes. And it's just the right thing to do.

Is it OK to plead the fifth? I don't make income from the farm yet, but I will report it all when I do.

I found out the hard way about self employment taxes and SS. And quite the opposite of what you imply.

I did a lot of, as it turned out, unnecessary work. I raised heritage poultry, a small truck patch, sold freezer beef, repaired and dealt in old clocks and watches, made and sold wood craft items, just about anything honest to make extra money.

I kept a very meticulous set of books, reported every penny, and promptly paid every cent of taxes due, including self employment taxes. The main objective of all of this extra work was to boost my SS.

And it came back and bit me on the backside...big time. Actually, a mauling would be a better description than biting.

After I retired from the USPS and turned 62 I went to the local SS office to sign up. They ran the figures and told me what I would receive. Then asked when I was going to retire, told him I had already retired, he asked what I retired from, told him the USPS.

Then he asked the killer question "is your pension from Civil Service"? When I said yes, he replied oh well we will have to refigure and consider the CC offset. Offset what offset? He said if you draw a CC pension part of your SS is withheld, that's supposed to discourage people from "double dipping".

Double dipping, what the heck is that supposed to mean??????????? I reported a pretty good amount of income and paid a lot of taxes, enough that some years it kept me in a higher bracket!!

After the refigure I got about 40 per cent of what I was due. I was not a happy camper.

If I had it to do over again, and were aware of this rip-off, I would do exactly the same thing......EXCEPT every penny would go into a sock under the mattress. I wouldn't send those thieves in DC a penny.

The great American story, try to do the right thing and play by the rules, and then get hosed big time by your govt. for your honesty.

There are so many legal ways for farmers to minimize the tax bill through deductions, depreciations, and other business write offs. Our tax accountant is the best farm hand we have. The IRS expects creative tax deductions. Just don't hide income, the IRS really frowns on that.
Cheating on taxes is no different than hiring illegal aliens in my book.

Amen

For all of you that report (we do too but we're new enough to not know the answer to my question, but we're closing in on the time) how do you keep 'not' making a profit and it be allowed? I was told by our tax preparer that we had to make a profit three out of seven years. Now I can see where it might not be 'much' of a profit. Acutally next year we 'need' to make a profit. I'm going to have to 'cheat' and not report some of the expenses in order to do that although it will be close enough that it won't be much of one. Still... it seems like you can't go on forever having expenses higher than income.

I report and deduct everything down to the last nail, mile, piglet of baby kid. I keep computer logs and daily figure whatever needs figuring.

Can you go over to the unorganized anonymous thread and give us all hints and tips? Or better yet, come to my house!!!!!

Ruth

Well, if you are actually losing money year after year after year then you should really consider another business. lol. One way to save on your tax bill is to grow the business, if you are looking at $20k profit then it might be wise to buy a better tractor or barn or more inventory or whatever to deduct and reduce the tax bill. Some people just sell stuff and pocket the cash and then on their tax form under "other income" they just put down the amount they made. For small amounts that is the easiest way as the tax will be low and it offsets the accounting BS you would otherwise have to do, but once you get sales over say, $1000, you will want the deductions. To pocket cash and report nothing is blatant tax fraud, otherwise known as lying, in my opinion. The biggest problem isn't typically going to be with the IRS but with state sales tax if you have that in your state. The state will estimate how much you have been selling and for how long and send you a bill. A guy I know got his garage boarded up because he was fixing cars on the side for years and not collecting sales tax. He was probably making $100-$200 a week profit, they said he was making $3000 a week and wanted their cut if teh estimated business. Once the government finds out (in their opinion) that you are a theif and a liar they will take advantage of that fact and steal back from you.

I'm not usually that organized, believe me. I do it because I'm a scared little wennie who doesn't want to be audited..... :p

We always report everything and always end up with a loss instead of a gain. I wonder how many years they'll let us keep deducting the losses?

You may be able to go for many years, might not ever get caught. If they do decide to audit you it is possible to go back and collect payment from the other years. Just a gamble you will have to make.

:zzz:

If anyone would like to compare their under the table transactions with others, here is a sample of the 'take' of one of Caesars' drug raids:
http://aycu14.webshots.com/image/170...6534202_rs.jpg

Just keep good records. Is that loss offsetting some other income? If so, they might try to give you a hard time or if your expenses are out of line with the income.

I just don't think not reporting anything - income or expenses is a really good thing to do.

A question for the original poster....

How much income are you talking about? $40,000 a year, or $40 a month?

Selling a few brown eggs a week or setting up a egg production business to supplement Kroger?

In any case, the schedule C form, which is different than the farm profit/loss form, is pretty easy to fill out. I can almost do one now with my eyes closed.

It is amazing what you can write off as a business.

By filing a schedule C with true legitimate expenses and income, you will see how profitable you are. You will find out how tough SSI is at 15.2%, which is the real killer for self employed people. Otherwise, the actual income tax will not be that bad.

I dont care what you do, but honesty is always the best policy.

Clove

Clove

I have the same question.
Because of an accident I can no longer farm. Keep the land because I need the space. So I am just starting on another endeaver.
I have only made enough so far to pay for my on line shop, but not the other web page, nor the supplies. Like with all start up business..it will be a number of years before I will see any kind of money coming let alone cover the costs.

I know how to keep records of my animals.. never made enough for Uncle Sam to be called a business..so they just told me I was a Hobby :rolleyes: not to bother filling.

But have no clue on how to keep books..find the forms..etc... for my wee business. I know there is a min you have to make before they will bother with you..and you have to make a profit every number of years.

Finding the right info is not so easy.