Compare / Contrast: Organic -vs- Sustainable

Hybrids are where you have discovered that the male component of one variety mixed with the female of another variety makes for a reliable offspring that features desirable traits. These folks will go to great lengths - usually with q-tips to do what bees usually do --- only the bees will be physically prevented from bringing *any* old pollen to a flower.

While I am not absolutely certain of it, I suspect that this practice would be okay with the organic guidelines.

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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I know of certified farms using organically grown hybrid seeds. Catalogs are selling hybrid seeds as organic. Are you sure about this?

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Robin

That's fine, but you'll never be "sustainable" in the true sense of the definition.

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This is the government the Founding Fathers warned us about.....

In my book, this is not sustainble....it is organic, but not sustainable. You are relying on someone else's nutrients (manure, leaves, etc) to replace the nutrients that you removed from the soil to grow a crop.

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This is the government the Founding Fathers warned us about.....

Not, but that is besides the point. To get viable seed corn it must be detasseled. One out of every so many rows is left tasseled. The seed from the tasseled corn will not be viable. The tasselled rows are left so that the pollen from the tassels can polinate the ears (silk) of the detasseled corn. This completes the hybridization process. The seed from the detasseled rows will be viable.

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Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

"The domestic cat is a close relative of both Felis silvestris, the European wild cat, and Felis lybica, the African wild cat. F.catus can interbreed with both to produce fertile hybrid offspring. Analysis of mitochondrial DNA has shown that F.catus and F.lybica are actually subspecies of F.silvestris. Because the three are genetically similar, it is often difficult to differentiate one from the other, especially in regions where they interbreed. However, generally speaking, F.catus ' domestication has led to some morphological differences such as smaller brains, jaws, and teeth than its wild cousins, as well as a wider variety of coat colors and lengths." http://www.columbia.edu/itc/cerc/dan...lis_catus.html

Ladycat, as you can see, of the 2 known ancestors of cats, one is a SUBSPECIE of the other. A subspecie is a member of the same specie that evolved in a distinct and seperate subgroup. Species do not seperate into distinct species until they can no longer breed and produce fertile offspring. Related species often produce unfertile offspring, as in a mule, but if they produce fertile offspring they are indeed the same species.

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Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

Many scientists believe that the house cat, or domestic cat Felis catus, came from some of the wild small cat species, particularly the African, Arabian, and European wild cats. At some point in time—some people think it started in Egypt about 4,000 years ago—people started feeding and taming wild cats in their part of the world, and the cats got used to living with people. Over a long period of time, these cats were bred among each other and became separate from the wild populations, and they also moved with humans to many parts of the world. This process—called domestication—has happened with other animals, such as dogs, cattle, horses, and pigs

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-smallcat.html

The article I read several years ago listed the 7 distinct species found in the DNA. I don't remember all 7 species, but I do remember that the greatest amount of DNA was Felis lybica and Felis silvestris, but they found varying amounts (depending on what part of the world a population came from that was tested) of Felis chaus (NOT a subspecies) and Otocolobus manul (this one surprised them).

Cats from around the world were tested. Populations in some parts of the world showed greater or lesser amounts of some species' DNA, but they did find 7 distinct species.

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I provided a cite to back up my position.

"many scientists" Just doesn't cut it. Besides, my main point is about corn..........

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Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

Felis lybica and felis silvestris are the same specie, as I suspect are the other 5 mysterious "species".

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Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

I suppose it's become clear that we all have very different opinions about what sustainable really means.

To CF, it 's limited to a particular farm. To some of us, it's a global perspective.

To me, it's avoiding doing anything that will deplete the soil.
This includes but is not limited to:
plowing and other soil exposure
routine tilling
using chemicals (toxic or non - it's the act of having to manufacture and transport that makes it unsustainable in my mind)
planting high feeders year after year on the same plot.
removing debris, straw, etc.
grain feeding animals that should be eating grass
using pesticides that kill the good along with the bad

CF is right, IMO, that humanure is a BIG obstacle to true sustainability. We can't continue to consume so much of the earth's resources
(through our food, or for growing our food or transporting our food) while
keeping our waste out of the natural cycle. It needs to be composted instead of disposed of in water. The same thing with our corpses.
(Cemeteries that prohibit embalming and the use of toxic products in coffins are becoming more popular now).

You can bring back some fertility by doing some very simple things.
Just planting a few deep rooted trees in closely spaced hedgerows, instead of creating huge expanses of open, will help. The trees mine deeply buried nutrients and put them on your field when the leaves fall.
They bring birds that will add manure...

Spreading the dust/sand from quarry activities brings nutrients.


Think in terms of compost tea instead of compost. Compost doesn't go very far. Compost tea supplies nutrients to a much larger area.
Same for manure tea. The leftover, leached compost and manure can still add precious humus to selected areas, as needed.

I believe we have to adapt our ideas about agriculture entirely.
But in my mind, chemical companies and their profits don't fit into the picture. The benefits they provide are short term and are far out-weighed by the damage they create.

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Hut on the Hill Farm
http://www.hutonthehill.org

e/she leaves the soy bean farmer 2 miles away begins to spray his/her RUR crop and the spray drifts to your farm. OOPS - no longer organic... but at least you've got that piece of paper.

I have to make sure there are no other farms that spray near me if they do I have to provide a way to protect my farm from over spray. I can do several things I can notify the other farm and hope they are nice people who wont aerial spray and instead use back pack sprayers or tractor sprayers which spray closer to the ground and have less drift, I can also have a buffer zone or trees to catch the over spray. I live in the middle of a forest so its not so much a problem for me as it would be other people with open farm land. But I see your point. It is a problem for many.


Also non organically grown seeds can be used he quoted part of the list but left out the rest.
205.204 Seeds and planting stock practice standard.

(a) The producer must use organically grown seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock: Except, That,

(1) Nonorganically produced, untreated seeds and planting stock may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced variety is not commercially available, Except, That, organically produced seed must be used for the production of edible sprouts;

So in other words if I can prove I cant get a certain type of fruit or vegie in an organic seed then I am allowed to use a hybrid or GMO as long as I looked for a non organic version and couldnt find one. I know this to be true as a farm down the road grows a certain type of squash that is a hybrid and is certified organic.

(2) Nonorganically produced seeds and planting stock that have been treated with a substance included on the National List of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced or untreated variety is not commercially available;

Again if I can prove I cant find a commercial organic seed grower of a type of crop then I am covered to plant away whatever type of hybrid I wish dont think so then check other farms there are many who use hybrid seed varaities that are "Certified"

(3) Nonorganically produced annual seedlings may be used to produce an organic crop when a temporary variance has been granted in accordance with § 205.290(a)(2);

(4) Nonorganically produced planting stock to be used to produce a perennial crop may be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced only after the planting stock has been maintained under a system of organic management for a period of no less than 1 year; and

(5) Seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock treated with prohibited substances may be used to produce an organic crop when the application of the materials is a requirement of Federal or State phytosanitary regulations.

As with most laws there are exceptions to most laws. [Gambling laws provide exceptions for insurance policies, highway speed laws have exceptions for LEO and emergency services, etc.]

If you can document that you can not find organic corn seed, then you have an 'out' to grow any corn seed.

We are new to organic farming. The local organic certifying organization in our state is MOFGA. Our local farmer's market [Orono] is connected to MOFGA and can do the farm inspections for MOFGA. We are members of both MOFGA and the Orono farmer's market.

Our first inspection comes this summer. It will the first in a series of farm inspections, as a part of the process of certifying our farm as organic.

Having spoken with the folks: at MOFGA, the farmers market, and at FEDCO seed; it has been our impression that to be certified 'organic' you want you to use 'organic' seed of non-hybrid stock.

I don't see anything there that suggests that hyrbrid seed is considered to be not organic.

A quick trip to johnny's seeds came up with this carrot seed that is both organic and hybrid.

Hybrid has to do with the breeding that has been done for hundreds (thousands?) of years. It is nothing like GMO stuff where bacteria DNA is spliced with plant DNA.

So .... in summary .... just to be crystal clear .... you can have seed that is organic and hybrid. You can also have seed that is hybrid and NOT organic.

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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If the other 5 are the same species, why are the males from the hybrid crosses sterile?

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[/QUOTE=pixelphotograph]]I have to make sure there are no other farms that spray near me if they do I have to provide a way to protect my farm from over spray. .[/QUOTE]

Another example of the insanity of this system!
The person polluting your farm is not responsible - YOU are !
That's completely unreasonable.

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Hut on the Hill Farm
http://www.hutonthehill.org

Somehow I am just sure that the woman in town, who pitched the fit, that started me thinking, that made me post, that inspired the replies,

( that lived in the house that jack built )
-- sorry couldn't help myself --

she would pitch an even bigger fit if she thought someone was out here pooping in the garden......

BUT.......I now understand why she pitched the first fit in that this is a bigger and badder topic than I realized! I thought I was just trying to do the best I could growing some good healthy food for me and my kids! It did not occur to me (until her fit and now reading the responses here), that someone would even care what name I called what it is that I do......or try to do.

Yes, if I was selling food/crops and calling it "organic" I can see where it would be important to be correct in naming products........but otherwise.....I still think she was out of line in pitching the fit and I still think I can call what we do "striving towards sustainability" = poop or no poop

Round up is Monsanto...which is one of the most unethical, unsustainable
and/or organic companies ever to exist.
You can try to call yourself "on the road to sustainable", but if you're sleeping with the enemy, folks will aim their Monsanto rage at you.

And frankly, if you are enriching them with your dollars, you deserve it.

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Hut on the Hill Farm
http://www.hutonthehill.org

Cite please

BTW, I'm trying to remember your original point, that cats are organic? Not organic?? I think we need Oggie for this one.....................

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Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

Was the lady something like this one?

If you feel you are sustainable and can sleep at night with some round-up use
just chuckle and say "I'm sorry"....I have explained my idea of sustainable and cited sources that back me-up and you also. When you expect to meet some people that can never be satisfied and will never accept anything you do... it won't bother you and later will be quite funny.

Its OK -- actually I agree with them and I sorta kinda wish I could just not buy the stuff.

But -- it is use the Roundup or have poison ivy all over the place and since we got rid of it 5 yrs ago in the gardens then we are now able to keep up with it but I really do not think we could have done it without it. So - now - we are "organic" as we can be in the gardens.....but up the roads we use the nasty stuff. Once it is down the plan is to use neighbor's tractor to mow it and keep it mowed (on my part but I cannot make the neighbors go along) so we do not have to use it there.

I really appreciate all the input, even the ones I cannot do or agree with right now. It does help me understand there is a much bigger picture here than I realized and that many people take it very seriously - much more seriously than I do / or did. So thanks to everyone!

PS Who is Peter Dodge and...the other guy ...Tony Wrench?