How to follow a propery line??
 

Hello all.

I'm still very new here....been a lurker for a bit. First off I think the ppl on this ere forum are the greatest. The information I've gathered just lurking has been great.

The reason for the post is that I recently bought some land and would like to start clearing the property line for fencing. The problem I'm running into is that while the corners are pinned, so easy to find, I am unsure how I am going to keep a straight line. lol Lots of brush and trees, etc between the two points with about 1800 feet between them. I don't plan to clear and fence the entire length this week, but would like to over the next few years. The first part of it is that I need to clear a path of some sort along the property line and stay on the line. One thing I do have going for me is that the property is flat, but heavily overgrown.

Looking for ideas on how to clear a straight line from point A to point B without having a line of site from one to the other due to the brush and woods.

Thanks in advance for the help. :hobbyhors

Eric

Ron Paul for President 2008
ronpaul2008.com

Well...
 

In the situation you describe, there is no easy way unless you have a good bush hog and can mow between the stakes.

Otherwise, you're going to have to guess what is a straight line and begin clearing from one corner toward the other.

after you get big obstacles out of the way, drive in a couple of 6' T-posts at each corner and get a roll of nylon string. Stretch the string taught, and remove anything under it, or pushing it.

Do this until you can stretch a tight string straight between the survey posts and on the ground, or very near it.

That's the property line. I always fence about 4-6 inches inside the string, just to be sure I'm not encroaching.

Has your property been surveyed recently? The property I bought is mostly woods and was surveyed in 1999 and the surveyor drove in stakes every 100 feet along the property line. When I bought the property in 2001 I drove in 6' long PVC pipe with a flag attached beside the surveyors stakes so I could see them from a distance. During the summers it's still difficult to see them with all the under brush but in the colder months they are easily seen. You might be better off running your fence during cooler months.

No easy answer here Eric. Even professional survey crews clear brush first. If, and property seldom is, your property is perfectly rectangle, you could set up a transit over your corner stake, point it at the other stake you can see, then simply, and carefully swing it 90 degrees. Then you could at least see the brush that needs cleared.
You could run a string/twine/cord from one end to the other, staying well in your property line then cut what brush is against the string. Eventually the cord will be straight and you won't have had to worry about going onto the neighbor's.

The property was last surveyed in the mid 90's and I have easily found the corner pins, but man if their are pins down the line i'd be surprised. I'll probably only find them when the brush mower trashes itself on one of them if they are there. lol

I have two neighbors that have only about 5 acres or less property that I am fencing along so I am def trying to not encroach with my fence and with cutting trees and brush out of the way.

I have been thinking about fall and winter clearing too....that maybe the best chance to get a straight line cleared.

I spoke with a surveyor about this issue. He told me that from the legal description of the property they can find a starting point on one corner then using their VERY SMART surveying transit/computer they can plot any point between the corners. The computer figures out how far off the property line the visible target stake is based on the angle between where it is and where it should be and the distance from the transit. They can 'zig sag' back and forth until they eventually end up at the destination corner. I didn't even bother asking him what plotting out my little 8� 1/2 acres might cost LOL...

I guess since you know where a corner is that you could get a really good compass and a laser level, set the compass at the compass direction from the legal description, point the laser in that direction and cut anything the beam 'spotted' for you... I suspect that would get you closer than guessing.

I'm hoping that one of the forum members that's a surveyor chips in on this thread.

Use a compass. Find one property stake.Find north,it will be 0 degrees. Turn left and get a bearing on the property stake.Go to second property stake. Find north again. Turn right and get bearing on second stake.Now turnaround until you hit the bearing of the the first stake.Visually plot a line to the stake.This is your rough heading.Clear brush. Now stretch the string between the two stakes. I just did this the other day for a neighbor. I was off two feet.It would have been much more difficult for him had I not done this as the line of sight between the two stakes was obstructed. Jim

Jim
How far from corner 1 to corner 2?

and what type of compass did you use?

exactly the way Boleyz described it is what I did.I only had 2 small survey posts. so i put in 2 large ones and strung my line after I got out the bigger stuff. of course I only had about a 1000 ft to do. worked for me. Georgia.

I took the bearings from the survey map and used a compass and some flagging tape to mark the line. I did it from each direction to double check and then double checked the double check a couple more times.

In the process of doing this I found some trees marked with tape well on my side of the line.

Later on it came out that my neighbor had done the same thing but had neglected to account for the variance from true north to magnetic north which started him off about 15 degrees to far east.

I hadn't read all the threads so This might be a repeat-----------Get/borrow a Good GPS, then you can go to all corners and "Mark" them with the GPS then you can Track with the GPS from one corner to the other with the arrow on the compass. They work Good if the area is not so THICK that the over head tree tops block all your signal. Good Luck!! Randy

i recently had my land surveyed too, for another structure. pounded in posts where needed and ran a rope between the two. just forced myself thru and got the rope to the other end.

jesse

This was the boundary between our two properties. About three hundred and thirty feet. If the stakes or marker pin are in known locations this will work. That is assuming that the property line runs straight between the posts.Also the information about your property should be available from county or city tax assessors office. The compass I used is a Suunto Tandem. Not as good as a dual but pretty good. Jim

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Keep your fence inside your property not on the line because it will be on your neighbors land also. Stay inside your property about 6'' to a foot, or you could be sued.

Talk to your neighbor before you start clearing and don't cut on there property, you could be sued.

bumpus
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Randy
I was told recently that even the best GPS available (at least outside the military) is only accurate to within 4-6 feet. If this is bad info, I'd be interested in a model that IS dead-on accurate if you know of one...

Personally, I would hire the surveyor to mark the line for you. If you can locate the property irons, they shouldn't charge too much. However you need to locate 3 (three) property irons not 2 (two). How do you know you have really found the "right" irons? You don't until you have 3 (three) irons. Trust me, I use to do civil engineering/survey technician work. Those two irons could have been placed there by anyone. THey could be your property irons or they could be were someone wanted everyone to think the property line is....

I had a neighbor who pulled up my irons so the county would not be able to prove his well was on my property and his new house was too close to my property. I had to hire a lawer and a surveyor to straighten it out. In the end I told him I would only sell him a slice of my land if he moved away (or else the county told him he would loose house).

Wow!! You guys are fast! :hobbyhors

I probably should have been a bit more informative so here goes. I only have just under 18 acres so while my undertaking isn't massive it is still a challenge with the heavy brush. My longest property line is 1175.65'....yep it is that exact on the survey lol and there are 5 pins total, but still I think what will work for the long side will just be easier on the shorter sides.

Jim West thanks for the compass tips. I may have to attempt that strat to be able to cut along the property line.

Bumpus : My township zoning inspector advised me to put the fence right on the line and not 6" inward. I am not sure, but i've been reading that here in Ohio there are still fence laws in place for property line fences as long as you aren't in a subdivison or something. Still your comment about being sued for cutting brush and/or trees off my property is something I'm trying to prevent.

I've worked some with GPS for landing zones n such and it is true that only the millitary grade is very precise. You know something about not wanting the enemy to have the ability to use our GPS system to guide missles n such.

Thank you all for the tips. If anyone else has any please let me know. I think this is going to be a fun challenge. :hobbyhors LOL

I've been really contemplating this option as well. My survey is over 15 years old and is really a continuation of an older survey from the army core of engineers from the 70's lol. I have found a total of 4 of my 5 pins....or atleast they fall in the places where the survey says about were they should be. A survey is a bit expensive, but that last thing I want to do is put up a fence only to have to tear it down and move it...arrg....survey cost about $120/hr avg in my area from the quotes I got on it...looking at around 3k or more for a good survey and help with the lines.

Thanks for all the help. Hope I'm able to return the favor in the near future

Talk to your new neighbors [if they live on their land] before you start working on clearing. They may be able to show you what the property line[s] is/are [or what they perceive them to be - not always one and the same thing]; and in any case - walking the property line with them before you do major work is always a good idea. It takes away that feeling some may have of getting shorted; it gives them notice that you are planning on working on your property, and they'll be more understanding if you accidentally clear out a patch of theirs while you fumble around looking for your future fence line - and if you are lucky - they may be willing to help with some of the work, and perhaps even split the cost with you.

Either way - it does not hurt to check, and creates good will if you take the time to introduce yourself [if you have not done so yet] and puts them at ease if you start working close to their comfort zone.

Lmnde

OK - here's a question that's along the same lines....

How do you treat the situation where there's a tree that sits dead on the property line? Now let's say it's a 100' oak that the fence builder wants outa there, but the neighbor wants it to stay....

Long post, but stay with me.

"Randy
I was told recently that even the best GPS available (at least outside the military) is only accurate to within 4-6 feet. If this is bad info, I'd be interested in a model that IS dead-on accurate if you know of one..."

My dad works for a large utility company. The company is/has purchased a "survey-grade" GPS unit I believe from Trimble for around $70,000 that he'll soon start training on. My dad said the unit is sub-centimeter accurate.
So all you have to do is head on down to Home Depot, open one of those "no interest, no payment for one year" credit cards and get one :dance:

Seriously though, a few months ago there was a "broo ha ha" about a property line in the middle of the woods. The end pins were marked as are yours. I agree with the others that you should wait until all the leaves are off the trees and the brush is dead. I pounded in 8' fence posts and braced them so they were in line/plumb with the survey pins. My dad went to the other pin that I had also set up with the post. This took place aroung dusk. My dad waved a bright flashlight to me and we used a rifle scope (binoculars would probably work better) to see him more clearly to guide me as to which direction to head, and we also had walkie talkies. I used high tensile fencing to stretch from one end to the other (attach the wire up high on the stake as it will sag to the ground after 150' or so as I recall), and then in the middle I used a tensioner to pull the wire tight and straight. This worked for over 300'. The only difficulties were getting on the correct side of some of the trees with the wire, and as the wire comes close to the ground you need to cut any brush, saplings, large weeds because they will easily move the wire over.
Another way to do this would be to lay the line as close as possible between the two points, stretch it a very little and then release the tension, then cut and splice the wire to get on the correct side of the trees.

Using this method was more accurate than the neighbor's "professional" survey that had pounded in stakes that said "approximate property line" :nono:

Bill I know here in ohio the fence laws are fairly specific. They even include the sharing of property line fence costs as well as keeping trees and brush clear on your own side. It is much better to work out a deal with the neighbor as bad blood over such an issue I'm sure can last generations. Maybe they would be willing to have the fence encroach into their property so the tree doesn't have to be taken down.

You are in the right to remove the tree from the property line for a fence. Check out the Ohio Revised Code Chapter 971.

"OK - here's a question that's along the same lines....

How do you treat the situation where there's a tree that sits dead on the property line? Now let's say it's a 100' oak that the fence builder wants outa there, but the neighbor wants it to stay...."

If it's a question of the tree disturbing where the fence would lie, then:
If that is the only obstruction, run a wire as I described in my previous post, but allow it to run along one side or the other of the tree. Then splice in another wire to run on the other side of the tree (this would look like two capital "Y"s on there sides with the tree in the middle) make this double "Y" splice very long so it doesn't hang up on the tree. The "Y" setup wouldn't be the permanent fence (it might eventually girdle the tree and would be bad for chainsaws down the road) but it would lay out where to put the permanent fence.
As to cutting down the tree, I wouldn't (assuming the tree is in good condition). I'd fence up to the tree, then just do an enclosure fence around the tree and then start up again on the other side. It'd be a shame to cut down a 100' oak just for a fence, if that's the only reason.

I agree completely with this philosophy. However it would be a royal pain if there were 10-12 such trees on a 1500' property line and especially if the fencing of choice were high tensile electric....

Oh and those GPS units.... I'll take 2! LOL

why not do it at night? pound a post at a pin ,tape a spot light to it pointed in the direction of the opposite pin ,then go to the opposite pin with a machette and start cutting. i would cut just enough to clear a line of site. easy peasy japaneasy :)

Someone here suggested using a laser at night if you want a straight line. However as long as it's been so long another survey is a good idea before building a fence.

One thing to consider is getting someone with those expensive survey GPS systems to give you a quote. They cost more per hour, but it shouldn't take more than an hour or two to put a series of markers on the line for you.

Another option is to get a consumer grade computer based GPS, and use a program that averages out the location. DeLorme has one with mapping software for under $100. This isn't any where near as accurate as the differential gps the pros use, but if you find the right software, should get down to 1 meter. It can help with the land clearing to allow you to use the mechanical methods mentioned.

How the pros get high accuracy: They use several different methods, but the most common is differential gps. You have a base station in a known location. It transmits to the portable unit, and tells it the position errors its getting. The portable unit takes that, and corrects its readings. As mentioned... sub centimeter accuracy can be achieved.

Michael

There is no way to put the fence DIRECTLY on the boundary line (if that is your goal) without the aid of surveying equipment. Assuming the 2 corner pins are in the correct location and has not be moved/disturbed, a surveyor could traverse between the two corners and calculate points exactly on the line that could be marked so you could build your fence. If you don't want to get your entire acreage surveyed, you should be able to get a partial survey done on this line you are wanting to put the fence on without great cost. A way to save some money on your survey bill, would be to clear a brush line near the boundary ,so the surveyor can easily traverse between the 2 established pins. Also, could you contact the surveyors that established the boundary in the 1990's? Getting the same company to resurvey that line should save you money. Wishing you happiness on your new land. Take Care.

Just a note-in West Virginia, a boundary line running through a tree gives dual ownership. An agreement by both parties is needed to determine the trees outcome.

Cooperation with the neighbours is really important when doing anything with the property boundaries. About 20 years ago, we and the neighbours on the three sides of us, found the stakes and set about marking where we agreed fences could go.

If we were not exactly correct, from a survey point of view, that wasn't a big problem, because we all agreed. It hasn't been a problem since.

In terms of paying, whoever wanted the fence paid. In our case, we did because we have animals and wanted to keep them on our property and keep predators out.

Only a couple of comments. They just subdivided the land next to me. It was all brush and trees, most with thorns. What the surveyors did on my side was to shoot a straight line on my property, which is a cleared pasture, and was offset from the property pins 200 feet. Once they had the line, it was just a matter of measuring over 200 feet to establish where the property line was. One of the property buyers had the brush and trees and a hill to go over. He put up PVC pipe up about 20 feet vertically with flags on it on each end. This allowed him to see through the brush and over the hill. The straightest line is always optical. Winter is the best time to do this.

Is there a school teaching surveying close, if so offer them your property to practice on.

Bob

Just be sure of local laws Before putting the fence anywhere but on the property line. Here in Pa. A fence is always put on the line exactly. This is due to the fact that if you don't the land on the other side of the fence becomes the neighbors after 20 years if you don't maintain it and utilize it. So once again it's on the property line.

Best to have a surveyor mark your lines for you. If you build your fence without being 100% sure where your boundries are, you may lose lots of time and money when your neighbor's surveyor (possibly in the future) finds your fence 2 feet on his property.

Just because you don't put your fence on the property line doesn't mean you're not using it. Every time you bushwack the weeds you're "using" the property. AZ has the same laws as PA - your choice.

In my opinion, putting YOUR fence 6 inches inside the property line makes for better neighours. No arguing about who fixes the fence, no cost to you if neighbour wants to put up an expensive fence & you don't. The way some people put up fences, I wouldn't want them tying into my corner posts.

:hobbyhors

Thanks everyone for the helpful tips!

I think I've got some great ideas that will help me clear the property line now. I went out today and walked the entire length by site....let's just say it didn't turn out quite like I thought. Going from point A to B went off without a hitch...I seemed to hold a decent line going on instinct, so I though hey if I could go from A to B then why not B to A...not so fast LOL. First off this is my northern property line...somehow I ended up on my southern neighbors property. ---- moss grows on both sides of the trees in my woods. Def need a compass.

The line of site ideas will work great I think after the first 600 feet or so as it is heavily wooded, but you can see quite a distance. The first 600 feet...now that is a problem...so think I bet after 50 feet even a flashlight may be hard to see at night.

I'm thinking...a new survey...this winter...will get me the best for my efforts. Figure it will also cost less for the survey if they do it when the brush has been pushed down some after a few snows.

Thanks all for the help.

Self-employed licensed surveyor here.

Hire a surveyor to set intervisible stakes along the lines, it shouldn't cost much (if the perimeter was correctly and accurately determined within the last few years), particularly if the last guy who surveyed the property is available.

BTW, there is GPS available that can be ridiculously precise (for a price, you also need to know how to use it). But, GPS gives georeferenced (or a slight variation) directions and most properties in America are not georeferenced (many are an approximation of magnetic or even on an assumed North)

but still with enough knowledge of GPS and the right equipment (and a thorough knowledge of boundary analysis) you can get the correct results (even for non-georeferenced properties).

Have you met your new neighbors? That is where I would start. Around here fencing common boundaries is still often done with one neighbor buying materials and assisting with the clearing and the other providing the manpower to install. I would NEVER build a fence directly on a boundary....I'll always offset one foot on to my side. Reason- if it splits the line they can cut it and install a gate or whatever since they own half of it. I am not against gates but I want to have control over how many and where they are built.

P.S. Locate boundaries in the winter when the leaves are gone. Also much more comfortable building fence in the winter......

David