Herd Shares in Ohio win a victory.

Ken... Ditto...

I'm very liability conscious also.

Someone with a six figure investment in equipment (low end) has to pay the bills, and small sales won't get 'er done.

If I were selling it, I'd want an ironclad lawyer written release.

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Perhaps a herd share arrangement can be set up somewhat like a corporation. Each participant in 'owning some portion of the herd' then also assumes a degree of liability risk. If a lawsuit is filed, all would share the final judgement, perhaps according to their percentage owned of the entire herd. A share holder would then not only be suing the producer, but all of the other share holders as well.

For example, a producer has ten cows with a fair market value of $2,000 each for a cow investment of $20,000. They have 50 share owners who bought in at $100 each. Technically the producer owns 3/4rds of the herd and the share owners the other 1/4. They are sued with a verdict of $1,000,000. Producer would be responsible for the first $750,000 and the 50 share holders responsible for $5,000 each, if my math is correct. Of course, the suer also has to pay into the pool, so would net out only $995,000.

Now you might say the producer ought to pay it all, but I would make the argument the share holders also have some proportional degree of liability for their participation in the arrangement.

Please don't get me wrong. I am all for the sale of raw milk. However, I believe there should be at least a minimum amount of sanitation regulation (perhaps no less than a Grade B dairy) and regular testing of the cows, the milk and the overall sanitary conditions from preparation for collection to transaction completion.

If someone wants to go this route then they really need to look into product liability insurance - which isn't cheap.

Not necessarily Ken. One has to ask what grounds a part owner might have to sue. That is, what sorts of liability/risk accrue to the herdshare owners? The other owners of the herd are not likely to be sued by another co-owner for poor sanitation,etc. They don't own the facilities. The farmer providing the management service would likely be sued but not the other herdshare owners.

If one of the herdshare owners gave milk to a 3rd party that subsequently became ill, that person plus the farmer might be sued.

Not being a lawyer but dealing with lawyers and contracts a fair amount, I would expect (if the farmer has competent legal advice) that there is some sort of cross indemnification agreement. Just a guess though.


You can calculate all you want Ken but you first have to answer the question of what the alleged tort is.

I suspect the first thing a personal injury attorney does is to sue everyone even remotely related to the case, then to let the courts sort of who is the actual parties to the dispute.

Actually I can't blame the overall dairy industry not supporting raw milk sales. Sickness is more likely to be caused by raw milk than their standard retail products, yet a 'health scare of the week' would likely swing a wide brush.

I suspect spinich and peanut farmers are still hurting and the recent tainted pet food no doubt has affected all manufacturers.

The personal injury attorney would have to show a basis for naming the other herdshare members in the suit. A more likely outcome is that the personal injury attorney would be trying to sign up other herdshare members as plantiffs.

You can't sue yourself. So the plantiff would have to show how the other herdshare members differed to have a basis for naming them in the suit.

The attorney(s) would have to be careful because they would run the risk of getting slapped with filing a frivolous suit.

Mike

I concede to your point. As a 'buyer's club' they likely would not have a responsibility for something the producer did themselves.

My dad milked cows untill I was 17. I milked cows for almost 3 years in the mid 1990's. The dairy farmer typicaly recieves about $1.20 per gallon from whatever processor they sell to. Even at some of the higher prices Ive seen dairy farmers get, like $16 per hundred, that's still only $1.37 per gallon. Buying all their supplies retail, and selling their product wholesale makes for a terribly tight budget. Anytime they can get $6 per gallon it is better than what they are getting from the processor. $4 extra is $4 extra. Every penny adds up. Every dollar adds up. Every small sale adds up. They have to consider every penny, every dollar, and make them every time they can. Any good manager knows that.

Small sales in addition to bulk sales do get'er done. I have been there. I am there now. I am a smal business owner. I watch every penny, and make them where ever I can.

Im not going to argue the point of raw milk. Im tired of seeing the argument.

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isn't it funny how it's a herdshare when it's a benefit - but not when it's time to get sued. When the cow gets out - who chases the cow? Who fences? Who stay up all night? Ownership is both rights and responsibility. In the financial world it is understood an asset is the combination of equity and liability. Liability may be zero but it must be stated.

I think we're in agreement, sort of...

I can just imagine watching the dairy farmer I worked for, taking time out of his 30 hour day, to stop, and sell a gallon of milk. His time was precious.

Now a small timer, with a couple of cows, selling in a mom or pop type shop, or roadside stand, might be willing to jawbone with a customer, for the couple of extra bucks.

The herdshare scheme originally mentioned here was a large scale operation, with apparently home deliveries (if I remember correctly). I remember home deliveries of milk, cream, and other dairy products...

Also agree that any bulk commodity type farming operation is an iffy proposition, since it's the only "business" that is so unbusinesslike.... buying retail and selling wholesale.

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I have to wonder if you are intentionally twisting words or if this is truly a reflection of your knowledge as someone who claims to work in the financial sector.

In the financial world an asset is only a combination of equity and liability when one looks at a balance sheet. The liability referred to consists of existing loans and other obligations.....not potential risk of lawsuit. It is a different kind of liability from the potential liability of getting sued. When the potential risk materializes then it is expected (in the financial world) that one sets aside a reserve or otherwise addresses that particular liability. One might purchase insurance ahead of time to mitigate potential risk. There are other ways of addressing risk but one example is sufficient for the purposes of this discussion.

As far as who chases the cow, who fences, etc.... by your logic, someone who invests in a resort condo should be out there mowing the lawn rather than paying a monthly assessment for the contracted management to take care of it.

You are disingenious at best.

Mike

It is just amazing to me how "homesteaders" can be so devoted to and demanding of certifications and regulations. Its more what I hear and expect from my friends who live in the city and think farm fresh eggs taste "too eggy."

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I agree, they aren't even wannbe's, they're the yuppies of today.

About 8-9 years ago I was invited to Sunday dinner at the home of some folks in the Amish/Mennonite area south of here. They weren't particularly either, just liked living in that area and some of their ways.

Shortly after I arrived the daughter was sent to milk the cow and I asked to come along to watch. She grabbed a SS bucket off the counter, which had been sitting open top up. On the way there we passed the outhouse and she asked me to hold the bucket which she popped for a quickie. At the dirt floor shed I don't recall seeing any sanitation of the udder or tits. She just squatted down and started milking into the bucket. At the house the milk was poured into jars using a funnel with a screen in the bottom.

During dinner I declined the milk.

Now under a no sanitary regulation cow share agreement apparently they should be allow to sell that milk into retail trade.

i suppose i have the reverse opinion of some, and suspect similar to others


if my nieghbors want a jug of milk, and are aware of conditions at my facility and kitchen whatever they maybe, is one thing

just like the sale of eggs

but i dislike the idea of a huge outfit getting to sell raw milk, and the little guy left out in the cold.

certification is just that

you can choose to buy certified

or you can choose to buy off farm.

but i think one should be able to have that choice.

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Ken, they are not selling that milk into the retail trade. Each owner is getting their own milk according to the share of the herd they own. Now you might argue that this is a sham. I would respond with "We need to examine the nature of the herdshare agreement". For example, are the share owners at risk for losses to the herd? Does the share of milk received vary according to variances in output from the herd? If calves are born within the herd, how is ownership allocated? The answers to these sorts of questions help show whether there is true ownership or if it is a sham to sell milk into the retail market bypassing regulations.

Mike

Agree they are using it on their own; however, according to some on the forum they ought to be able to sell it into retail with absolutely, positively, no governmental oversight. Let the buyer beware and all that.

The following addresses some legal issues you mention:

http://www.realmilk.com/herd-share-legalities.html

I don't have a problem with raw milk being sold into the retail market as long as there is some sort of appropriate sanitary regulation. It is caveat emptor to the extent that there are known potential issues with raw milk. That shouldn't mean a free pass for the producers to have totally unsanitary conditions (like not having employees wash their hands after going to the bathroom).

Mike