Got Raw Milk? Be Very Quiet

diane · #81 03/20/07, 01:23 PM

Michigander here. I was surprised to read that cowsharing was legal here? The last I knew ANY sale of milk off the farm was illegal, pasturized or unpasturized so I must refresh myself on the laws. I was repeatedly called on the telephone attempting to intrap me for sales of PASTURIZED goat's milk off my farm. The junk in the grocery store that they called goat's milk was horrible and had a shelf life months. What does that tell you?

Michigan is one of the most regulated states in the nation in every area of our lives. I seriously doubt that there is anyone in the state not breaking some law. Industry is moving out and the population is decreasing and I would venture to say that by far the biggest employer here is the state. I hate it but my people have been here since it was opened up for settling and I have no intention of moving.

That said, I would not drink raw milk from my herd or anyone else's in this state as the deer herd is full of disease and uncontained.

veggrower · #82 03/20/07, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

And by the way, not all meat is cooked prior to consumption and humand have eaten raw foods for many, MANY generations before pastuerization and cooking came along.

What you are missing here is what was the life expectancy before cooking and pasteurization were widely used? Louis Pasteur didn't invent the process of pasteurization so that govt and big business could control the milk market. He saw a problem of too many people getting sick and dying from consumption of tainted milk. Many peoples lives were saved as a direct result.

I personally have no problem with the sale and consumption of raw milk--in accordance with the laws of your state. If someone wants to drink the milk from their own animals produced on their own farm, I don't believe that is illegal anywhere. In my state, Oregon, if someone wants to buy raw milk from their neighbor, bring their own container, and buy it on farm in accordance with state law, great. If they want to participate in a cowshare scheme in order to circumvent state laws I have a problem with that. If a California raw milk dairy wants to ship their product into my state labeled "pet food, not for human consumption" in order to get around Oregon's laws, I have a problem with that. When a cowshare in Wa state sickens 17 people because they refused to comply with very common sense regulation on food safety, and milks their herd in a parlor with a mud floor, without sanitizing the teats or their equipment, when they bottle it in their own kitchen all because of greed to make the most money for the least cost, I have a problem with that.

As one of thousands of small famers in this country that have worked hard promoting, local, fresh, seasonal,sustainably grown farm products I don't like seeing my hard work building recognition in the marketplace tarnished by a few unsrupulous individuals trying to circumvent the law n order to cash in on $6/gallon milk sales. That what this is really about is exploiting a lucrative market without spending the capital required to set up a legal business.

veggrower · #83 03/20/07, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MullersLaneFarm

When this guy was (legally) shut down because of interstate sales, we were contacted by the WAP Chicago chapter and asked if we would consider offering cow shares and transporting raw milk into Chicago.

We told them that cow shares were not needed in IL. That we do sell raw milk at our farm and would not break the law and transport it into Chicago. If any of their members wanted to come to the farm with their own containers and get milk from us, we'd be happy to supply it .... within IL laws. They kept repeating that if we had a cow share program, that would could legally transport it. WRONG! IL is one of the few states that allows the sale of raw milk. We like it that way. We are not going to break the law to make it easier for folks to get raw milk. If they don't like the law the way it is written, they need to do something about it, knowing that pushing the existing law may just shut down raw milk sales in IL altogether.

Thank you for taking the time to post. Thanks to Diane from Michigan, also. It is good to hear from an actual producer.

hoofinitnorth · #84 03/20/07, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veggrower

Spinach is pasteurized when it is cooked, killing the pathogens. There have been serious reprucussions to the California growers and processors who packaged the tainted spinach. Natural Selections/Earthbound Farm has tens of billions of dollars in lawsuits filed against it for packing tainted spinach.

I like the idea of the free markets putting someone out of business if they can't produce a product that is safe (that is advertised as such). In other words, if it's meant for consumption, it better be fit for consumption. (The same principle applied to the lady that sued McDonald's for the "too-hot" coffee that burned the heck out of her very private parts as it dumped in her lap - it was too hot to safely consume when it was advertised and served to her FOR CONSUMPTION.)

As an aside, the govt. has been entrusted with our safety. It is our job as the citizens of this country to work toward reasonable and enforcible laws that actually DO this. A raw milk dairy should not be illegal if it is run safely under certain rules and regulations.

On another note, there are so many passionate posters in this thread that it makes me wonder how many are pushing for the laws to allow the sale of raw milk in their locales? Come on folks, let's work together to get what we want or need! Don't be apathetic when voting or lobbying if you have such passion on a discussion forum!

MullersLaneFarm · #85 03/20/07, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diane

Michigander here. I was surprised to read that cowsharing was legal here? The last I knew ANY sale of milk off the farm was illegal, pasturized or unpasturized so I must refresh myself on the laws. .

Raw milk sales in MI is still illegal.

http://www.realmilk.com/happening.html#mi

Quote:

Raw milk sales are illegal. Michigan was the first state to pass mandatory pasteurization laws—the year was 1948—and has some of the strictest milk laws on the books. Farmers may not even sell raw milk from the farm. In 2002, at hearings on the revision of the Michigan State Dairy Code, the industry attempted to amend the code to make it illegal for dairy farmers, their family members, their farm workers, and even their farm animals to drink the farm's raw milk. This plan was fortunately dropped, due to the efforts of dairy farmer Chuck Oliver and members of the local chapter of the Weston A. Price Foundation.

The state is aware of at least four cow share programs that currently exist. While the state department of agriculture has not approved of any of the cow share programs, they have not tried to shut any of them down.

W.A.P. MI update http://www.realmilk.com/update-mi.html

Quote:

Senator Carl Levin of Michigan has received clarification of FDA's position on raw milk, and we continue to work both with FDA and MDA toward resolving the situation with David Hochstetler and Family Farms Coop. As part of that effort, we have provided both MDA and FDA with copies of the 230+ testimonials written largely by Family Farms Coop members, testifying to their positive experiences with raw milk and their commitment to ensuring its supply. A fair share of these testimonials were created on the Family Farms website (www.familyfarmscoop.com). Senator Levin was also provided with a set of these testimonials in a meeting held this morning in his Detroit office, and my letter to him follows. In all that has happened since October, there is nothing more
certain than the power and positive effects being produced by the many letters written to MDA and FDA, legislators, this and other sites as well as other recipients, together with the testimonials. There is reason for hope; remember, there is nothing illegal about drinking raw milk; please keep the faith, and keep those cards and letters coming!

Senator Carl Levin
Patrick V. McNamara Federal Building
477 Michigan Avenue
Suite 1860
Detroit, MI 48226-2576

Attention: Gail Govaere

RE: Family Farms Co-op

Dear Ms. Govaere:

As promised, I enclose a copy-set of the 232 raw milk testimonials prepared by members of the Family Farms Co-op who drink raw milk supplied by David Hochstetler. As you review them, I am sure you will be impressed with the importance placed in, and the depth of commitment to raw milk and other natural foods which these Co-op members express.

On behalf of the entire Co-op, please express my heart felt thanks to Senator Levin, and of course to you, for your assistance in obtaining this very helpful clarification from the FDA in its February 21, 2007 letter to the Senator.

As you know, in addition to the legal arguments, it is my firm conviction that the FDA's perception of the "risks" of raw milk are out of date and that suppliers such as David Hochstetler and Family Farms Co-op, operating with exemplary cleanliness under valid cow share/herd-lease arrangements, both ensure the public health and permit individuals, the freedom to obtain foods of their choice for their families.

Thanks again for your kind assistance.

Very truly yours,

cc: Michelle Mital – FDA (DC)
Joann Givens – FDA (Detroit)
Captain Robert Hennes – FDA (College Park)

All this aside, raw milk was transported across state lines (MI into IL) which IS illegal.

hoofinitnorth · #86 03/20/07, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veggrower

What you are missing here is what was the life expectancy before cooking and pasteurization were widely used? Louis Pasteur didn't invent the process of pasteurization so that govt and big business could control the milk market. He saw a problem of too many people getting sick and dying from consumption of tainted milk. Many peoples lives were saved as a direct result.

Actually, didn't Pasteur invent pasteurization as a means to preserve beer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by veggrower

As one of thousands of small famers in this country that have worked hard promoting, local, fresh, seasonal,sustainably grown farm products I don't like seeing my hard work building recognition in the marketplace tarnished by a few unsrupulous individuals trying to circumvent the law n order to cash in on $6/gallon milk sales. That what this is really about is exploiting a lucrative market without spending the capital required to set up a legal business.

I hear ya there!

jerzeygurl · #87 03/20/07, 01:51 PM

small farmers ect should not have to follow same standard as factory,

raw milk sales to individuals who ask ect

that being said, about the divitalization, HOME pasturisation is nowhere near the same as factory.

factory is usually 170 degrees for 30 minutes...

home is 161 for 15 seconds

or 145-150 for 30 min

there is some loss of vitamin c at this level and small ammount of enzyme loss

ultra pastuization i believe is 180 or more for extended periods lots lost at that level

sorry i see alot of extremism on both sides,

we used to not have refrigeration, we dont wish to do with out that now, grandma milked into a wooden bucket, we know better now, I would rather hand milk into ss bucket, than try to clean all that tubing with all the dairy clensers, so hair and flies and dust can fall in, and i know what that could have been in contact with., so i pasturize, except for aged cheeses. but i dont care if you do or dont.

I would not buy raw milk from someplace that I did not visit when I bought it.

these laws came about because of unscrupulous dairymen were selling adulterated products like butter ect cut with tallow ect,

but small on farm sales should be legal and buyer beware.

DocM · #88 03/20/07, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

You must have missed all those studies then. Try reading "The Milk Book" for some enlightenment. Milk is pasteurized to allow people to run dirty dairies, nothing more. Clean dairies have no more instances of "pathogenic diseases" than any other similar operation. It's all in the preparation & maintenance.

And by the way, not all meat is cooked prior to consumption and humand have eaten raw foods for many, MANY generations before pastuerization and cooking came along.

I do agree with you, however, on the issues of the law.

For generations, we didn't have the problems with antibacterial resistent and mutated strains of bacteria. To keep using that analogy is ridiculous. People got sick and died of bacterial infections, including those from raw milk, and nobody diagnosed them as such. It happened though.

And why is it that people who believe they're deep thinkers keep associating pasteurized milk with grocery store milk? I pasteurize my own (certified organic) milk; that's why they sell home pasteurizers. When I sell milk off my farm, it's been pasteurized. Believe me, I've tasted raw and pasteurized from the same animals, you can't tell the difference.

Raw doesn't mean organic, btw, I think a few people here are confused.

There's a big difference between making the milk you sell safe, and over processed milk from Albertsons.

Here are some other articles on raw milk:

http://foodsafety.cas.psu.edu/Pathog...ulk_Tank_Milk/

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...s/rawmilk.html

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html

http://www.notmilk.com/forum/463.html

There is plenty of scientific evidence that ties pathogens in raw milk to disease. There is NO scientific evidence that correlates raw milk to increase health benefits. Pasteurized milk off a farm is just as beneficial, and is a lot less likely to kill you. Enzymes in raw milk are beneficial to the mammal for which that milk was intended. Humans don't need milk, it's simply an easily digested source of protein and some vitamins, none of which are devalued through pasteurization. Cite me a study from a recognized research facility, and reviewed in a peer associated media source, that concludes that raw milk is superior in nutrition to pasteurized milk. Just one. I'll wait.

veggrower · #89 03/20/07, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

As an aside, the govt. has been entrusted with our safety. It is our job as the citizens of this country to work toward reasonable and enforcible laws that actually DO this. A raw milk dairy should not be illegal if it is run safely under certain rules and regulations.

We are on the same page here. Producers of raw milk who make the invest in educating themselves about food safety procedures, who invest in the infrastructure required of any dairy, who carry out the proper testing, who allow the required inspections should be able to sell their product.

At $6/gallon it seems they have plenty of incentive and cashflow to do it right. What does the normal dairy darmer selling their milk through normal channels receive for their milk?

hoofinitnorth · #90 03/20/07, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerzeygurl

I would not buy raw milk from someplace that I did not visit when I bought it.

Others have said the same. It is a very wise comment.

hoofinitnorth · #91 03/20/07, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocM

And why is it that people who believe they're deep thinkers keep associating pasteurized milk with grocery store milk?

I don't think they do - they are showing an extreme as you are showing the opposite extreme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocM

Raw doesn't mean organic, btw, I think a few people here are confused.

Absolutely agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocM

There is plenty of scientific evidence that ties pathogens in raw milk to disease.

Why is it that you think raw milk is the culprit vs. a dirty dairy, a sick mammal, or irresponsible/unchecked harvesting & storage practices?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocM

Cite me a study from a recognized research facility, and reviewed in a peer associated media source, that concludes that raw milk is superior in nutrition to pasteurized milk. Just one. I'll wait.

I gave you a whole book of 'em. I've read it, it cites specific studies throughout.

BTW, I think pig's milk is supposed to be better for humans that cow's milk.

Edited to add: I do not agree with nor believe everything in "The Milk Book" just as you probably didn't agree with nor believe everything you learned in graduate school, but it's an eye-opening resource nonetheless.

DocM · #92 03/20/07, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck

*off topic*

I'd like to see the same sentiment towards our soldiers.

Yeah, respect is a great thing. Remember the NAVY is over there too. My son just finished his active enlistment, most of which he spent on the ground as an interpreter. It's not all about the grunts. "Servicemen and women".

LagoVistaFarm · #93 03/20/07, 02:14 PM

Actually raw milk is over $10/gallon here. It was $15/gallon at the Ukiah Foods Coop for Organic Pastures. We buy Strauss Milk for cheese making It's only taken up to 170 degrees. This morning I picked up our weekly three gallons for $18.43.

DocM, I have been under the belief that raw milk was much safer if consumed within 24-48 hours since the bad bacteria counts did not have time to elevate yet. To your knowledge is that true?

hornless · #94 03/20/07, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocM

People have died from drinking raw milk. If the state doesn't allow the sales of raw milk for human consumption, then lobby to change the law, don't break the law and then expect people to be supportive of that. There are legitimate reasons to question the processing of any raw milk supply.

Well said. On the goat forum, DocM has mentioned the way he pastuerized his goats' milk. I tried the method, and the milk tastes just as good as raw milk. So drink raw milk if you want- but it safer to cook it, so to speak. But exposing it to your kids is wrong.

DocM · #95 03/20/07, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

I
I gave you a whole book of 'em. I've read it, it cites specific studies throughout.

Yeah dude, I had Amazon superquick send it to me and I read it already - get real. Dr Douglass wrote this, right? This is a quote from him, from one of the articles I posted

Quote:

Also testifying was William Campbell Douglass, M.D. (no relation to John Douglass), president of the Douglass Center for Nutrition and Preventive Medicine and author of The Milk of Human Kindness-Is Not Pasteurized. "For rapid, healthy growth in young children, there is no substitute for raw, certified milk," he asserted.

"Certified". Hey, I don't have any problem with certification and selling of raw milk. Dr Douglass is comparing supermarket milk to raw milk. Apples and oranges when compared to some guy selling cow shares off his farm.

I read some citations from an academic server. Dr Douglass contends that when compared to ultra pasteurized and homogenized milk from factory sources, raw milk is superior (certified). I don't dispute this. If I thought factory milk was better, I'd be drinking it, but instead, I raise my own in an organic environment.

However, the studies he cites don't conclude that raw milk has a health benefit - he uses those studies (from various university sources) to back up his "opinion" that raw milk has a holistic health benefit. None of those university studies conclude that raw milk is beneficial to the health of any human, only that ultra pasteurization and homogenization depletes some vitamins, minerals, and enzymes in the milk - and not that the enzymes are necessary to human health.

In other words, it seems Dr Douglass simply massages data to back up his point. Feel free to cite a recognized study from the book, and I'll look it up. The only one I found had to do with Dr Douglass' observation that a prison started feeding raw milk from its dairy to the prison population and that the prisoners statistically had fewer trips to the prison medical clinic. He concludes from this observation that it was the raw milk. That's not a scientific study.

Steve L. · #96 03/20/07, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

At the end of the day, perhaps what is needed is a healthy dose of scientific literacy. Perhaps then, people would not be so easily duped by spurious claims of "devitalization" and whatnot ...

Well said.

willow_girl · #97 03/20/07, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Well let me help you out here Willow Girl, b/c my "rational" thinking led me to a dictionary to look up this new age mumbo-jumbo word "Devitilization" -to deprive of vitality. Further rational thinking (see I am capable of it!) led me to the word "vitality" #3 def, says "power to live or grow." So drawing a conclusion (albeit my own) to my rational thinking, milk that has been devitialized has the important nutriments rendered incapable for life or growth.

I can assure you that the only things "living" or "growing" in your raw milk is ... bacteria!!!

Steve L. · #98 03/20/07, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

I can assure you that the only things "living" or "growing" in your raw milk is ... bacteria!!!

hoofinitnorth · #99 03/20/07, 03:15 PM

Sorry DocM, my copy is in storage at the moment and being temporarily one-armed and on my own, I am not able to dig through several yards of snow to get into my container van and find it for you. Just because you didn't see a study doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You admit you only looked up *some* of the studies cited. I read it several years ago so don't have all the citations memorized. Sorry.

Libraries are wonderful things, though. I gave you the title of the book (and I'm not sure you got the same title as I mentioned but it is the same author), now you can take it from here.

As I said, I don't agree with or believe everything stated therein, but it was an eye-opening resource that lead me to check out others. Being a scientist doesn't mean you have to be close-minded. You read and evaluate it for yourself. Many of us are well educated but don't feel the need to flaunt it to try to win an argument on *opinion*.

southerngurl · #**100** 03/20/07, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

I can assure you that the only things "living" or "growing" in your raw milk is ... bacteria!!!

[sarcasm]You do realize bacteria is everywhere right? On your computer, you desk your hands, even in your mouth right now!

BLEACH BLEACH!! And you do realize there are beneficial bacteria (gasp, shock horror STERILIZE!!!).. I'm sure. And certainly you know it is actually UNHEALTHY to never come in contact with disease causing bacteria?[/sarcasm]

If your body was void of bacteria, you'd fall over dead.

Sorry to be so goofy, but it just cracks me up how fearful people are of the natural world out there.