Got Raw Milk? Be Very Quiet

Tango · #61 03/20/07, 05:41 AM

Very interesting thread, if realy, rally scattered- I give it a thumb's up. So the law was apparently not broken in this case?

Dairies are dictated by govenrnment regulation due to the perishable nature of their commodity. The regulation actually tries to protect the people from the failures of a massive system transporting and handling the perishables and the farmer from a total loss. In the larger scope however, the laws are rather hazy regarding milk. On one hand we have one extreme: raw milk from one's own cow on pasture and on the other hand pastuerized, homogenized, milk from a factory cow that doesn't even know her milk is supposed to support her own calf. The law protects me drinking my own raw milk from my own udderly spoiled Jersey and it protects my neighbors who buy the plastic jug with traces of BGH, rBGH, bST, and insulin growth factor 1. Hmmm, let's see raw milk or Posilac????? Ya'll enjoy your breakfast.

Wildwood Flower · #62 03/20/07, 05:50 AM

My folks raised us six kids on raw milk, from a neighbor's dairy down the road. We drank tons of it. I also bought raw milk for my kids from a neighbor. Both farms were very pleasant to visit--and CLEAN!

Yea, I know, we didn't scientifically test every batch--but it only makes sense that people all over the world drink fresh raw milk--and THRIVE on it!

We also ate wild game meat and home canned everything. The health benefits were lifelong. All six of us are still healthy as horses--and approaching the age of sixty. One of my brothers runs a 100 mile race every year. (Anecdotal evidence, for sure, but common sense has seemingly gone out the window nowadays.)

In my opinion, one of the problems these days is with trying to KILL every germ and bacteria that comes around. I choose rather to live in harmony with them--with a good strong immune system and NO harmful chemicals, if I can avoid them.

I'm SICK OF the government regulating every choice we used to have. And meanwhile, endorsing some of the most dangerous things--like prescription drugs---which by the way, are now the #1 cause of death in the USA. Oh...and they're quite legal.

doohap · #63 03/20/07, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnborn

Heck lets ban gasoline causes air pollution, ban cokes and other sodas have caffeine and are addictive, lets ban mcdonalds and other fast food joints due to calories and fat. Makes as much sense as the raw milk arrest.

Probably makes MORE sense ...

minnikin1 · #64 03/20/07, 07:07 AM

If it's the law you must follow it ---
[enough with the name calling - on both sides here.]

We live in a nation that is so heavily legislated that law professionals have to spend hours researching to figure out what our laws say and mean.
Judges listen to hours of arguments regarding interpretation and precedents.
We can't possibly know what all the laws are, much less follow them all.
We live where obsolete laws remain on the books forever (as was already mentioned - like the runner in front of the auto. )
And we live in a land where the average citizen has as much chance at changing a bad law as winning the lottery....

[]

There was a time when I was idealistic enough to think I could take on the big guys and fight to change bad laws. Ultimately I learned it was a waste of my life. I can't win.
I can't even address every battle that is important to me, there are too many.
I'll go ahead and buy raw milk or forbidden prescriptions from Canada or lifesaving drugs that aren't FDA "approved".
These idiotic laws cross the "live and let line", and most were put in place to protect business, NOT consumers. If you want to spend your tax dollars chasing down and locking up baddies like me, that's your perogative.

But when some murderer sweeps through your town and the cops are too busy chasing down us raw milk drinkers, don't try and step in to protect yourself. Vigilantism is against the law, you know.

And you still have not addressed the fact that your assessment was wrong: it seems this guy did not break any laws, anyway.
[as much as someone may have begged for it, let's all stop being impolite, please.]

Chuck · #65 03/20/07, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windy in Kansas

I'm with you DocM, if you don't like the law lump it or change it! Until it is changed however, support those that enforce it as they are required to do by law and their oath.

*off topic*

I'd like to see the same sentiment towards our soldiers.

Chuck · #66 03/20/07, 07:58 AM

I've just spent about fifteen minutes on this thread "pasteurizing" it. I don't appreciate having to do that. Please pre-filter your own posts so I don't have to un-jerk them.

thanks.

minnikin1 · #67 03/20/07, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck

I've just spent about fifteen minutes on this thread "pasteurizing" it. I don't appreciate having to do that.

Why do it, then? We're not chidren here and sanitizied info is "devitalized"!

The irony is hysterical, though!

southerngurl · #68 03/20/07, 08:48 AM

Quote:

y thing this whole argument comes down to is freedom of choice. I make the decision on what I eat, not the government. If I want to eat a raw piece of pork (although I can't think of anything worse at the moment), that's MY decision.

Yes, and you would be a fool for doing so, wouldn't you?

That's always going to be a matter of opinion, so you have yours, and I'll have mine.

southerngurl · #69 03/20/07, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veggrower

I 100% agree. A "Cowshare" in SW Wash made 17 people sick with their e.Coli tainted raw milk last year--including 3 children who were intesive care for kidney failure. Theis cowshare was operating in direct defiance of a cease and desist order from the state health dept.

A raw milk dairy is legal in Wash state but they have to be licensed and meet grade A dairy standards like any other dairy. Certain common sense standards have to be met such as having a concrete floor with a drain in the milking parlor and running water so you can clean before and after milking. Teat dips to disinfect and clean the teat before milking.

This particular unlicensed dairy milked the cows in a dirt floor parlor--what happens when cows poop on dirt? It makes poopy mud that is rife with bacteria and can't be washed out. They were bottling the milk in their family kitchen. They weren't testing for e.Coli more than 1 time/month.

A raw milk dairy needs much more stringent testing than a pasturized dairy.

Raw milk is illegal to sell in Oregon except if you have 3 cows or less. Then you can sell raw milk directly to your neighbors who come to your farm and pick it up themselves. No signage, no advertising.

So, should we make raw spinach illegal too? How about highways, how many people do they kill? There will always be people who do their job wrong. Doctors kill people every day, due to neglect and incompetence, but we don't outlaw the medical practice.

And a cow used for raw milk doens't need more stringent testing, IMO, it just has to be healthy.

veggrower · #70 03/20/07, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

So, should we make raw spinach illegal too? How about highways, how many people do they kill? There will always be people who do their job wrong. Doctors kill people every day, due to neglect and incompetence, but we don't outlaw the medical practice.

And a cow used for raw milk doens't need more stringent testing, IMO, it just has to be healthy.

Where did I say that raw milk SHOULD be illegal?

Actually read my post and you will see that I just reported that raw milk dairies are illegal in Oregon with the exception of 3 cows or less and selling directly to neighbors who come on farm to purchase the raw milk, no advertising or sinage or off farm sales. I also stated that raw milk dairies are legal in Wa state and tehy must be liscensed as and conform to the standards of a grade A dairy.

No where did I say that raw milk should be illegal.

Spinach is pasteurized when it is cooked, killing the pathogens. There have been serious reprucussions to the California growers and processors who packaged the tainted spinach. Natural Selections/Earthbound Farm has tens of billions of dollars in lawsuits filed against it for packing tainted spinach.

All I did was inject some actual facts into the discussion. You can rail and rant against the facts, disagree with them to your hearts content. Doesn't matter, facts are facts. Your opinion doesn't change them.

I didn't say the cows need more stringent testing, the milk needs more stringent testing. Cows can be perfectly healthy and still have pathogens in their digestive tract. The sanitation practices of the dairy operator are where the key lies.

One licensed raw milk dairy in Wa state that was interviewed during the cowshare e.Coli situation. They do both raw and pasturized sales. They test every batch of milk from every milking. When they get a batch that is out of the WSDA's specs for pathogens in raw milk, the pasteurize and sell it that way.

Several raw milk dairies were interviewed at the same time and all were upset about this rogue cowshare that milked their cows while standing in excrement and with no sanitizer available to disinfect the teat before milking. The feeling of the liscensed dairies that made the investment to confrom to state law is that this unlicensed cowshare that sickened 17 people hurt the raw milk industry and made it harder for those who actually cared about producing a safe product.

These interviews were done by the Capital Press which is an agricultural newspaper and is pro farmer.

willow_girl · #71 03/20/07, 10:42 AM

Quote:

And a cow used for raw milk doens't need more stringent testing, IMO, it just has to be healthy.

The manure of even a healthy cow is teeming with organisms that can be harmful to humans, and as someone already pointed out, it is relatively easy for milk to be contaminated by fecal matter.

Edited to ad: Sorry for my redundancy ... Veggrower edited his post to say virtually the same thing at the same time as I was posting!

Now, as far as THIS ...

Quote:

this rogue cowshare that milked their cows while standing in excrement and with no sanitizer available to disinfect the teat before milking

All I can say is

Sadly, without regulation, this is exactly the sort of situation that is likely to occur ... people operating out of greed or idealism, or a combination of both, and harming others as a result.

Methinks it's not enough to simply say "buyer beware" ...

At the end of the day, perhaps what is needed is a healthy dose of scientific literacy. Perhaps then, people would not be so easily duped by spurious claims of "devitalization" and whatnot ...

KimM · #72 03/20/07, 12:06 PM

I totally feel that it's an individual's right to choose whether or not they want to accept the risk of drinking raw milk. I personallly feel it is better for you than pasturized. Alcohol has killed WAY more people than raw milk products ever will but it's not illegal.

However, DocM has a point with "If the state doesn't allow the sales of raw milk for human consumption, then lobby to change the law,..."
So why do we accept this? It's suppose to be what the people want - strength in numbers - united we stand - squeaky wheel, etc. Why don't we start making some real noise?

Ken Scharabok · #73 03/20/07, 12:20 PM

Actually I thought the article was quite well balanced.

Note one aspect in it: They were not just selling milk intrastate (within MI), but rather interstate (to at least IL). Interstate comes under federal USDA and they have said flat out NO.

From what I have read the problem some states have with herd share agreements are they are just a thinly disquised excuse to sell raw milk retail by the gallon. Can't remember link off-hand, Weston Price?, which discusses them. A herd share agreement needs to accurately reflect actual ownership, not just a buy-in and then you can purchase all you want at a set amount per gallon.

I personally have sympathy for the concerns of the U.S. milk industry that any health problems linked back to the sale of raw milk will reflect just as badly on their own, relatively highly regulated, industry.

Not mentioned as a problem with milk is the transmittal of TB. I read somewhere the leading cause of immigrants being rejected at their point of origin (even today) is their having TB, perhaps acquired from consuming raw milk back in their country of origin.

Personally I feel some degree of sanitary regulations are fair to impost on those desiring to sell raw milk. They perhaps need not be as stringent as for a Grade A dairy, but something perhaps more along the lines of a Grade B one.

Would I drink raw milk? Not unless I personally saw where it came from and how it was handled.

foxpawz · #74 03/20/07, 12:28 PM

I wouldn't touch raw milk with a ten foot pole unless I did the milking myself. I've seen too many milking parlors where the cow manure was ankle deep. Raw milk is great under clean conditions.

lynpea · #75 03/20/07, 12:29 PM

Well let me help you out here Willow Girl, b/c my "rational" thinking led me to a dictionary to look up this new age mumbo-jumbo word "Devitilization" -to deprive of vitality. Further rational thinking (see I am capable of it!) led me to the word "vitality" #3 def, says "power to live or grow." So drawing a conclusion (albeit my own) to my rational thinking, milk that has been devitialized has the important nutriments rendered incapable for life or growth. I hope that this helps yo some with your red flag problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Please explain, in scientific terms, this mysterious process known as "devitalization."

(This is exactly the kind of New Age mumbo-jumbo that ought to serve as a huge red flag to people capable of rational thought.)

And if you were eagerly clamouring for the opportunity to eat something that may well sicken you, most would be astute enough to recognize you as a fool.Fools we all are then, what do you eat? Smoke, drink? Do you consume packaged foods? Drink carbonated beverages? Eat meat? Peanut butter? While you did it quite eloquently, name calling while you are living in a glass house is... hmmm... shall we say "foolish?"

Because milk seems relatively innocuous, it's more difficult to make the connection in its case, but raw milk -- particularly the kind we're talking about here, milk that presumably is produced commercially, in quantities sufficient for sale to many customers, which makes it much more difficult to ensure quality -- may well be just as dangerous as those mushrooms.

southerngurl · #76 03/20/07, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veggrower

Where did I say that raw milk SHOULD be illegal?

Actually read my post and you will see that I just reported that raw milk dairies are illegal in Oregon with the exception of 3 cows or less and selling directly to neighbors who come on farm to purchase the raw milk, no advertising or sinage or off farm sales. I also stated that raw milk dairies are legal in Wa state and tehy must be liscensed as and conform to the standards of a grade A dairy.

No where did I say that raw milk should be illegal.

Spinach is pasteurized when it is cooked, killing the pathogens. There have been serious reprucussions to the California growers and processors who packaged the tainted spinach. Natural Selections/Earthbound Farm has tens of billions of dollars in lawsuits filed against it for packing tainted spinach.

All I did was inject some actual facts into the discussion. You can rail and rant against the facts, disagree with them to your hearts content.

I didn't rail and rant, I just added some facts.

And yes, I'm sorry, I misread. You said the dairy needs more stringent testing. I would personally, say that they simply can't get away with the unhealthy animals or lack of cleanliness that a "regular" dairy can. Sorry if my posts are dry, I'm not yelling at you, I just usually post in a hurry.

Patty0315 · #77 03/20/07, 12:39 PM

Being adults I feel we should have the right to eat and drink what we want and also to raise our children they way we want.

They Goverment has way to much control now . It needs to stop some place.

Patty ~ who's family drink raw milk daily and are still living !

MullersLaneFarm · #78 03/20/07, 12:42 PM

When this guy was (legally) shut down because of interstate sales, we were contacted by the WAP Chicago chapter and asked if we would consider offering cow shares and transporting raw milk into Chicago.

We told them that cow shares were not needed in IL. That we do sell raw milk at our farm and would not break the law and transport it into Chicago. If any of their members wanted to come to the farm with their own containers and get milk from us, we'd be happy to supply it .... within IL laws. They kept repeating that if we had a cow share program, that would could legally transport it. WRONG! IL is one of the few states that allows the sale of raw milk. We like it that way. We are not going to break the law to make it easier for folks to get raw milk. If they don't like the law the way it is written, they need to do something about it, knowing that pushing the existing law may just shut down raw milk sales in IL altogether.

hoofinitnorth · #79 03/20/07, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocM

Obviously I meant that raw COW'S milk doesn't benefit anything other than a baby cow. To interpret that sentence differently is just plain... stupid. Take that personally if it fits, but it's not an attack, it's an observation.

Raw milk has NEVER been proven to be beneficial to any mammal other than the one it was originally designed for. However, many pathogenic diseases in milk HAVE been proven to be harmful.

You must have missed all those studies then. Try reading "The Milk Book" for some enlightenment. Milk is pasteurized to allow people to run dirty dairies, nothing more. Clean dairies have no more instances of "pathogenic diseases" than any other similar operation. It's all in the preparation & maintenance.

And by the way, not all meat is cooked prior to consumption and humans have eaten raw foods for many, MANY generations before pastuerization and cooking came along.

I do agree with you, however, on the issues of the law.

hoofinitnorth · #80 03/20/07, 01:16 PM

They fortify commercially pastuerized milk with vitamins like A and D because it is no longer present or is destroyed by the pasteurization process and the govt. thinks you should have these vitamins in there at X amount even if it isn't easily assimilated into your body (if at all).

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Because milk seems relatively innocuous, it's more difficult to make the connection in its case, but raw milk -- particularly the kind we're talking about here, milk that presumably is produced commercially, in quantities sufficient for sale to many customers, which makes it much more difficult to ensure quality -- may well be just as dangerous as those mushrooms.

Raw milk itself is NOT at all dangerous. The dangers lie in what can get INTO the milk if proper sanitation practices are not in place.