Laws about SS number?
 

Who can refuse service if you refuse to provide your social security number?
I thought it was illegal for businesses to force to you provide it, but if they can refuse to do business with you, what good is the law?
(Specifically, Im talking about TV cable - a pay in advance - not credit - service. )

FYI I had MAJOR problems filing a crime report with the Alaskan State Troopers.
The form giving to me to report the vandaiziation and a stole Mail box was unreal.

I filed out all of the legal questions and turned it in.
the first line was blank--it asked for my SS#.
Clerk informed me that I needed to compleate the form.
I rechecked the form. I informed her that it was complete.
She pointed that the SS# was blank.
I asked her why would the troopers need that to investgate the crime.
I informed her that the SS# was for tax use only or if I wanted to recieve state or fed Benifits I would have to "vol" the information first. I asked if the State Troopers were now a "benfit"
NO
Then I asked if learning what my income was helped to determine the quality of service I was allowed to get from the troopers.
NO
Then I next informed her that it was not lawful to demand my SS# to file a crime report.
Well many office people later and on trooper I was finally allowed to leave the report with out the SS#.
Result. NO trooper action. For a week till the post master got involed.

This has always confused me also. We opened a new bank account last year and were told we HAD to give our SSN. We were told if a large enough deposit was made it had to be turned into the IRS so it was the law that we had to give the SSN to have a bank account....

So I'm wondering how illegals can get a credit card without an SSN if they have a bank account with no over draft for three months. Where did they get the bank account?? Not at our bank.... unless there are different laws for them than there are for us.

here in canada its a social insurance number..I was refused a phone because i would not supply this number.. I explained that it was for INCOME tax purposes not ID.BUT..If they were willing to pay me for something I would be happy to provide the number.I finally got the phone by using other ID..Other ID is not a problem.

My kids doctors keep asking for their social security numbers, but I won't provide them as they are not financially responsible. Unfortunately in order to have our medical insurance pay for the services, we have to provide my husbands number.

One of the problems though is that although the law says you don't have to provide the number, it allows businesses to refuse to serve you if you don't.

You are required to provide it to banks, as interest is taxable income therefore the banks must have a social security number to report the interest to the IRS.
Dawn

Some information on this is provided on this site:
http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm

And here are some quotes from the above site:
Am I required to give my Social Security number to government agencies?

It depends upon the agency. Some government agencies, including tax authorities, welfare offices and state Departments of Motor Vehicles, can require your Social Security number as mandated by federal law (42 USC 405 (c)(2)(C)(v) and (i)). Others may request the SSN in such a manner that you are led to believe you must provide it.

The Privacy Act of 1974 requires all government agencies -- federal, state and local -- that request SSNs to provide a "disclosure" statement on the form. The statement explains if you are required to provide your Social Security number or if it is optional, how the SSN will be used, and under what statutory or other authority the number is requested (5 USC 552a, note). The U.S. Office of Management and Budget, Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) provides guidance and oversight regarding the Privacy Act of 1974. The text of the Privacy Act can be found at the website www.usdoj.gov/foia/privstat.htm.

The Privacy Act states that you cannot be denied a government benefit or service if you refuse to disclose your SSN unless the disclosure is required by federal law, or the disclosure is to an agency which has been using SSNs previous to January 1975, the date when the Privacy Act went into effect. There are other exceptions as well. Read the U.S. Department of Justice's explanation at this website, www.usdoj.gov/04foia/1974ssnu.htm.

If you are asked to give your Social Security number to a government agency and no disclosure statement is included on the form, complain and cite the Privacy Act. Unfortunately, there appear to be no penalties when a government agency fails to provide a disclosure statement.

Do I have to provide my Social Security number to private businesses?

Usually you are not legally compelled to provide your Social Security number to private businesses -- including private health care providers and insurers -- unless you are involved in a transaction in which the Internal Revenue Service requires notification. (MediCal and Medicare are government health plans and can require a Social Security number.)

There is no law, however, that prevents businesses from requesting your SSN, and there are few restrictions on what businesses can do with it. But even though you are not required to disclose your SSN, the business does not have to provide you with service if you refuse to release it.

If a business insists on knowing your Social Security number when you cannot see a reason for it, speak to an administrator who may be authorized to make an exception or who may know that company policy does not require it. If the company will not allow you to use an alternate number, you may want to take your business elsewhere.

Credit card applications usually request Social Security numbers. Your number is used primarily to verify your identity in situations where you have the same or a similar name to others. Although most credit grantors will insist on having your SSN, you may be able to find a credit grantor who will provide you credit without knowing your SSN, especially if you are persistent and can provide other forms of identification. But such instances are rare.

The reason everyone wants your SS# is because it is the most effective means of tracking you. If you leave a debt unpaid, your easier to find; plus your assets can be readily available through an asset check. It is also used for identification purposes since SS numbers are not duplicated. Banks need your SS# because, under Federal Law, they have to provide IRS with interest and (sometimes other reports) on your banking status -- including not only interest you made, but any deposits over $10,000.

I just went thru this with the HIPPA form at the oral surgeon. I even showed them my card that says NOT FOR ID purposes. But, they won since I needed the oral surgury. But I did go thru 3 office workers first.

Angie

I think I'm going to start making them up...
um, well, no I would never do that....
but I am noticing my memory is not all that it used to be....
it seems likely I'll get more forgetful in the future.
Maybe I'll forget I ever had a SSN.

I think I'll wait and see how "forgetting" works for Scooter Libby and then decide! :D

bank told me
 

That any transactions 3,000 or more now had to be reported , might justa been to social services though..:-)

Just transpose some numbers and go on. No one seems to verify the SS # for accuracy.

I don't understand all the hoopla. I'll give anybody my SS#.

I'll even post it. Its 279-09-3875.

NO wait. Its 392-89-3266,

No thats not it! Here it is: 286-86-5995.

I think I should go double check, just to be sure. :rolleyes:

Giving out my ss# scares the (*#$*#^ out of me. It can be used to find out ANYTHING there is to know about you. When I am hunting one of the lost sheep of my flock (I am a probation officer), that is the first number I plug in to find out their life history.
Be vary wary of who gets hold of it!

galump

In New Jersey, the socialist state run by Democrats who claim one's privacy is paramount, one cannot obtain a drivers, hunting, or fishing license without submitting one's SS number. We are told this is for security reasons due to 9/11 which may be somewhat true, giving some of the terrorists obtained NJ drivers licenses from crooked state employees. Also it is to find deadbeat dads under the Child Support Recovery Act, although we suspect hunters and fisherpersons also must fill out a Child Support certificate each year, as if most of those who do not support their kids actually hunted or fished.

Karen is exactly correct on this. No matter what the Dr or Dentist office personnel tells you, they only want it for when you don't pay the bill. This is how they can successfully refer you to collection. I actually had a Dr's office clerk tell me (very nastily I might add) that I was required by law to provide my ss #. I told her to call the sheriff, and I would wait. After she made a beeline for the "back office", she came back and told me they didn't want to get involved, and would I please take my business somewhere else. I told her that I would be happy to do exactly that, especially given the hateful way they treated patients who were not sheep. I also told her that there would be letters going to the bbb, my insurance co., and the medical associations complaining of their behaviour. And then I went home and wrote those letters. I copied my Dr. funny thing...never got a response from anyone. I'm sure they all went to file 13, but I got a measure of satisfaction I suppose.

Given all that, I will continue to refuse to provide my ss# to the medical community because based on statistics, the medical community is where "most" identity theft occurs. Think about it.....they have your ss#, drivers licens #, address, phone #, and very possibly your credit card # and exp date. How much additional information do you think it takes to successfully steal someone's identity?
The only entity you are required to provide your ss# to is your employer, and your bank. ( or anyone handling your money in a way that they are required to report to the irs.)

I absolutely abhor dishonesty, but, in this case, if I'm pressured and I need the service, I just might have a senior moment and make a 1 and 7 indistinguishable. 8 becomes a 0, 2>5, 6>0.....dang but my handwriting CAN get sloppy in my old age........

Besides, it will never become an issue, because we pay our bills, and they will never need it to find me or mine. This may be way to much information...

G'nite all

Dianne

The original SS card had a note at the bottom stating it was not for identification purposes. You still see a few of them.

Texas demands a SS# before they renew DL. My husband refused to give his and told them his DL had nothing to do with SS - as they would not be involved in his retirement. The lady kept getting nastier and nastier and finally a DPS man stepped out with a smarmy 'what's the problem'. My husband told him this lady was refusing to renew his DL because he was refusing to giver her his SS#. The DPS officer told her to issue the DL.

The government doesn't duplicate, I don't think, but they do nothing for you if someone else is using your card.

With your SS#, they can get a DL, credit cards, borrow money, etc., etc., all in your name. Just think of all the people you are giving access to your personal ID when you give your SS#.


Most banks don't demand SS# from illegal aliens. They accept the Matricula card. That is the card issued by the Mexican government, proving they are illegals - but banks and Homeland Security seem to be OK with that.

Actually, however, most illegals have several SS cards, as well as DL - all fraudulent - but who's checking.

That's really weird KCM...those are MY SS #'s. :baby04:

You have to provide your number when you go to have your drivers license renewed, it's unfortunately got nothing to do with $ purposes anymore no matter what the laws say...it's simply a way to keep track of you.

Tami ~ Heritage Corner Poultry

Sounds like a real good reason to stop watching the idiot box.

My Amish neighbors don't have S.S.#'s but they do have money (lots of it). They do business at the local bank. Come and go with amounts of money that would amaze most of us. They walk into the bank with their money on a "take it or leave it" basis. There is another bank across the street, you know. :rolleyes:

Thanks for links, Pony.
Interesting food for thought..

On his radio show, Clark Howard recently suggested writing "123-45-6789" when docs ask for the #. ;)

I have assisted US servicemembers in revoking their SSA accounts. The IRS issues an alternative number for ID purposes. If You go that route.

And for the curious what would that process be? What are the good and the bad about it? If there is no longer a ssn then what happens with the filing of taxes? Do you get that money back since I assume you will not be benefiting from ss then I'd wonder why would you have to pay into it? :shrug:

SSA is an insurance policy.

Once you cancel the policy, all money in the account is gone and forgotten. You can never go back to access it.

You are paying into an insurance policy, if you should become disabled, or if you should live to be old enough then you could draw a pension.

You can revoke your policy. Folks do revoke their policy, though it requires that you have a bona fide 'belief' established through a religion, that you can not rely upon the government to care for you.

You send in the form, and your account goes away.

You can then file with the IRS for an alternate number to use for filing income taxes.

How do the Amish get away with it - religious grounds?

Do they have an alternate number and do they pay taxes?

If it's servicemen, could they get their military retirement if qualified?

But the way the insurance company is being run right now......there won't be any insurance when I get of age.

1- okay fine.

But see I 'applied' for my account.

You applied for your account. If not you then your parents applied for you on your behalf. Nobody is required to apply, it is not mandated.

Amish simply never apply for an account.



2- yes.



3- yes. Our military pensions come from the DOD. Sailors from the Philippines may apply for a SSA, but generally they do not. They enlist, serve 20-years, and they get their pensions. However very few of them ever ask for a SSA.

Now days we have US servicemembers who are coming in from many other nations. I have served with Brazilians, Peruvians, Brits, Italians, and one guy from Georgia.

:)

Thanks.

As for the military people, I knew there were soldiers from all over. There were soldiers from other countries in the AF with my husband in the 50's.

I had a man, from Brazil, tell me his parents wanted to imigrate to America. They had a business and wanted to sell out and start one in America. The government told him they could if he, the son, agreed to serve in the military.

Not sure how I feel about that.

Children born in a hospital after 1985 are issued a ssn upon birth. I never applied for dd's but got the card in the mail before I ever got the copy of her birth certificate.

I know of people who have refused to give out ssn's when registering their child for public school (I did, "oh I forgot the card") who found out the ssn was already in the schools computer system!!!!!! I won't give mine to doctors offices, and have never given the childrens out except when dd was on Medicaid. I purposefully never carry their cards just for that reason. I have never been refused services but then dh's number is used by the insurance co as an id number.

I've worked at a bank for about 6 years now and it is federal regulation for us to obtain a ssn. It is for large deposit reasons and also to check federal lists as to whether or not you are a drug trafficker, terrorist, etc. We have a lot of foreign customers who go to school here (I live in a college town) and they can open an account with us but they have to provide their visa and fill out a W8 form. They can not get a credit card at all without an actual ssn.

I doubt the situation is as you percieve it. Banks and credit unions are required by FEDERAL LAW to fill out a form called a Currency Transaction Report (CTR) each and every time the institution takes a deposit, gives a withdrawal or changes currency in the amount over $10000.00 when the transaction involves currency. Federal auditors come in at least yearly to make sure these policies are being followed. So, either these Amish people are not exceeding $10,000.00 in currency transactions per day, they do in fact have a ssn, or their bank has an alternate way to fill out the form (substituting some other number for the ssn). There is no possible way the bank just does these things outside of regulation just to get the money. They would be shut down.

Not Bank Of America... you can open a checking account without a SSN.

Bank of America! Bah!
I recently took a NIMS class through a local community college that used a Scantron type of form to grade my test answers. On the back of the form, there is small print that informs you that any information on the form can be released to the government, the legislature, etc etc. So, knowing that 'government' refers to an awful lot of random people doing various necessary and unnecessary tasks, I refused to give my SSN. Was therefore refused credit for having taken the class.

Illogical to think that criminals that are supposed to be tracked with their SSNs would use their REAL SSNs. Come on! That's the purpose of identity thefts.

And if you get an alternate ID from the IRS, I was told that alternate ID # is cross-referenced to your SSN, anyway - so how does that help matters?

Bah, again!

BTW -- health providers now have "NPIs" - National Provider Identifiers. since I'm a provider I have my NPI and it's mandatory to use it now. :soap: -- any day now it's RFID chip implantations (just to make things 'easier', of course.)

Where's the revolution? People are happy the way things are, I guess. If anything should unite various different opinions (political and otherwise), it ought to be this issue of encroachment upon the freedoms that were so hard-won.

Bah again :flame:

I was filling out an online resume yesterday for a large university. They requested a SS# for tracking purposes. Thankfully it was not a required field or I would not have finished the form. Still, I'm willing to bet 99.99% of applicants fill it in without thinking twice.

In Lancaster Pa, the Amish are officially "exempt" from social security. The don't pay into it, they don't draw from it. (btw, the Amish version of SS is moving in with your kids or other family. Often the kids put-up mom/dad in a "doughtyhaus", built onto their own home.)

As are any member of any religion where has is a recognized part of their doctrine.

Here in IL, they only issued me a sticker to go on the back of my DL when it was time to renew. Now the actual card I have is about 7 y/o. When I sent in my app. for a FOID card last year, I had to supply a photo that was to be "no more than 6 mos. old". When I got my card, it didn't have my PP photo, but my DMV photo AND signature! What the heck?!?!

[QUOTE=ROSEMAMA]When I sent in my app. for a FOID card last year, I had to supply a photo that was to be "no more than 6 mos. old". [QUOTE]

What's a FOID card?

Firearms Owners IDentification Card

So that when a disaster occurs they will know where to go to confiscate the firearms. As occured in New Orleans. Unfortunatly all my firearms were lost in a canoeing accident.

Wow

I never heard of such a thing.

I guess tha twhen living in them big cities they have got to do something.