PETA Types, Defending Your Farm?

I'd have let them take the rabbits and while they were getting them out of the cages I would be writing license plates numbers down and/or getting a camera.

Bobg

I hope you "shoot 'em up" people aren't giving sincere advice. Do you realize that somebody's life could be changed forever, and NOT for the better, if they shoot at or otherwise threaten some punk suburban kids with probably rich parents and good lawyers?? And over what? Some rabbits? It WILL be "he said, she said", and the gun wielding farm owner will be painted as a violent maniac compared to the cute, innocent, perhaps misguided, but certainly unarmed and non-violent kids who clean up real nice for court (if they're alive to be there--otherwise you and the jury will be seeing some tear-jerking videos of their cute chubby cheeks and sparkly blue eyes and parents crying over their coffins and everyone saying how smart and sweet and promising and loved they were). This is just ridiculous.

No. What you do is use common sense methods. First of all, making a show of calling 911 is probably enough of a deterrent on its own, even if the cops never show up. These are not crackheads and PCP addicts who have nothing to lose and more guts than sense. They are punk kids who will most likely be scared off with any kind of credible threat of negative repercussions to them. Second, I would do what Spinner said--don't invite questionable strangers out to your property in the first place. If that's not possible, at least don't have strangers over while you're alone--a husband, male friend/neighbor, adult kid, whatever. And taking your big dog with you never hurts. And in the end, if you do all this, and they somehow still manage to make off with a few rabbits--again, call the cops and take down license plate numbers. If the local law enforcement is really on your side the way some of you all are saying, they'll make it a project to make those punk kids regret trespassing, stealing, threatening you, and whatever other charges you can come up with.

I don't know offhand of ANY state where it is legal to use deadly force in the protection of property, and if you say you were protecting your life, you better have some pretty darn solid evidence that those kids with no weapons and no violent records were really any kind of credible, immediate threat to your life. I don't know how you could possibly come up with such evidence, and you can bet there would be a long and costly legal battle over it in any event. You can bet that that battle would cost you more than the price of a thousand rabbits.

__________________
And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb.. And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all my holy mountain For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

When the situation is many against one, and the "one" is on his/her own property, the law sides for the "one" if everybody ends up roughed up a bit.

I know I don't carry my gun or shotgun around when I have clients on the place; if I was showing my rabbits to some strangers and they put their hands on them without my permission and announced "we're taking these rabbits", I would be well within my rights to physically assault them. A feral scream from one ----ed-off woman and scratching and biting commences! If they defend themselves? Good. I can take a hit, especially when the adrenaline's pumping. They're just adding to their criminal charges, is all....

Disabling their vehicles is a great idea. I would gladly face the music for "beating up a Mini Van" if it got the PETAs in big fat trouble; caught red-handed on my property! "Officer, all 6 of us were just looking at the pretty rabbits when psycho, here, attacked our cars! What? oh, the PETA flyers in the back seat and the cages lining the floorboards aren't mine.... "

__________________
...'o shame on the mothers of mortals, who have not stopped to teach; of the sorrow that lies in dear, dumb eyes; the sorrow that has no speech... from -'Voice of the Voicless', Ella Wheeler Wilcox

Here in Texas, if I FEEL threatened; in immediate danger, I can blow anyone's head off and I am justified. Period. Some one approaches me in my driveway, makes a threatening comment or simply get's in my "space" so that I feel they could grab me and mortally hurt me, I can kill them. Yes, there will be an investigation. I am innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law. And the only witness is now headless.

If someone crosses my threshhold; actually enters my home uninvited, they don't even have to say a word; I can drop them where they stand. The one second of hesitation while I "ponder" wether or not I'm in "mortal danger" or just "really really really scary danger" could be the difference between MY life or death, and, as you may have guessed, I value mine more than to err on the side of caution due to fear of POSSIBLE inquiry or jail time.

__________________
...'o shame on the mothers of mortals, who have not stopped to teach; of the sorrow that lies in dear, dumb eyes; the sorrow that has no speech... from -'Voice of the Voicless', Ella Wheeler Wilcox

Go for it, then. At least you can't say you weren't warned. Still sounds like a terrible idea to me over some rabbits (and that IS what we're talking about here, not a gang of rapist/murderers or something), but it's your life. Someone's gotta keep us defense lawyers in business....

__________________
And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb.. And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all my holy mountain For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

Well, if it were the chickens or the goats, that's one thing, but the rabbits...

I know a couple of good lawyers.

Hey, I know where you're coming from (I might make some life-altering choices over my dogs), but these are meat rabbits--the owners in questions were selling them for the purpose of them being killed and eaten. All of a sudden these same people are willing to risk life in prison, or losing the farm, for these little doomed rabbits who probably aren't worth more than a few bucks to them--go figure.

(oh boy--"a few bucks"--no pun intended, LOL )

__________________
And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb.. And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all my holy mountain For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

first of all, never be unarmed unless you feel your life and loved ones aren't worth defending.

if they showed up on my place, all i'd need to do is call the meatwagon

appeasing evil just gets ya more evil. either stand up or lay down and let them do what they want

Well, that's true - this situation is more like someone abducting my turkeys, who are destined to be turkey sausage and turkey tacos. Not worth shooting and killing for, I agree...and yet.

I take my responsibility for my animals very seriously, even if they are "just" meat animals, even if their financial value is minor. They are living things and I am responsible for their welfare while I am their guardian. I have to assume that politically motivated activists are not going to take care of these animals as well as I would. So I would be motivated to put up a fight, partly because they're my "property" but also because I have assumed the role of their guardian and I should live up to that.

I think some are missing the bigger picture in this.
It is not about the rabbits it is about someone coming onto your land and trying to take your things.
What if it was your car ? would you then think it was OK to shoot them ?
rabbits may not be enough to shoot someone over but would a horse be ? or a cow ? The point is they was going to take something that did not belong to them. It does not matter what it is they was in the wrong and the law is on the side of the right.
In the first post it was said that they gave the impression she would be hurt if she resisted, That right there would make it shooting time in just about every state. No one can come onto your land and make you feel fear and get away with it. If they do then it is your fault for letting them get away with it.

There is a post in the poultry forum, about 7,000 chickens being killed. I wonder if it was animal activists in that case as well?

__________________
Please take the time to watch this video about Cerebral Palsy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0mrs4fpRv8

trixi--yes, yes, absolutely. I don't mean to imply that people here raising animals for meat don't or shouldn't care deeply about their welfare. But life in prison/losing the farm or whatever? If history is any guide, these PeTA folks, if successful, would probably release the rabbits 100 yards down the road, and the rabbits would live a nice free range life for a short time until they were killed by predators, squashed by cars, ate something poisonous, or starved to death (not so likely for rabbits as dogs, I imagine, but...), or captured by the humane society and adopted out to people like me. A good outcome? No, not really. Worth life in prison...? You be the judge. I'd sure put up some kind of resistance to them taking the meat rabbits if I could, but it would NOT include firearms, maulings, or any kind of sharp, stabby implement.

__________________
And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb.. And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all my holy mountain For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

Car? No. Definitely not. Horse or cow? Would depend on whether I had a deep enough attachment to the animal that I was willing to risk losing everything over. I generally say probably not. If they were only going to hurt her if she resisted them taking her things (and I very sincerely doubt that they would do even that), then it seems to me the clear solution would be to let them take the rabbits, while she took down as much identifying information as possible. Nobody gets hurt, bad guys (probably) get punished by law enforcement, good guy doesn't lose freedom and/or all worldly possessions and years of their life in the trial process. Easy question. Next?

__________________
And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb.. And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all my holy mountain For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

I would hope cooler wits would prevail and I would take the sensible, legal route to get my animals restored to me. But I'll tell you what...our turkey pasture is on the far edge of our property, near the side bordered by railroad tracks. Some teenagers were walking the tracks one Sunday and I guess they thought it was fun to wing (big) rocks at my turkeys. I was in the goat pasture at the time and luckily heard my tom "loodle-oodle-orp" his alarm, so I headed over there...and the sight of me grimly marching over there was enough to scare the kids off.

But I can't remember when I've been that angry. Put those kids in electric chairs, and I'd have flipped the switch. Sometimes our protective responses to things are not always wise and coolheaded, and my animals are the one area in which my emotions are likely to win out over my reason.

They can have the geese, though...free of charge.

uh....wise and coolheaded went out the window once they not only trespassed, but actually touched anything of mine then theatened me?


this cool head nonsense is exactly why these cretins think they can do these things. they know that backbone got bred out of most of us years ago.

just mail them the keys to your house on yer way out

step on my property....i'll greet you and ask what ya want

touch my stuff? nope

threaten me? just once then the threat will be removed.

it's so not about chickens at that point

and yes, i'm armed as long as i'm awake and when sleeping, it's less than a foot away from my hand. same with my wife.

if you don't confront evil, evil is what you'll always get. trying to justify the refusal to stand for oneself just cuz they were chickens leaves me weak

BD40, like I said, knock yourself out. I wasn't planning on stealing from or threatening anybody, so it's no skin off my back. I guess I overestimated some people here--I said the PeTA kids probably do NOT have more guts than sense, and I assumed the same was true about people here. You stamp your foot at the PeTA punks and make a scary face and they'll probably run away--I really don't see the need for guns in this instance, but whatever. Have fun in court.

Trixi--I know what you mean. In fact, just seeing people litter on my property is enough to make me want to punch them in the head. I think I can imagine how you felt. I've described in other unrelated threads about some of the unpleasant and offensive things the neighborhood punks have done to me and my fiance--it makes me fuming mad and sometimes trembling with rage and I can't stop thinking about it for days. But it's not worth me getting in trouble for. It's just not worth it. My life is more valuable than that. So I watch, and wait, and call the cops on them every chance I get. They can go to jail, not me. It's nice when you've done nothing wrong and the law is on your side. I guess this is just one of those instances where laws and law enforcement really do have an effect on (some of) our behavior.

__________________
And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb.. And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all my holy mountain For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

i never said you did.

as far as court goes....ever hear of the castle doctrine? it's the law here.

in the op, she was outnumbered, alone,threatened and was being robbed. what if they escalated things? she supposed to just sit there and take it?

i guess some just choose to get walked over. lemme know how the stamping thing works for ya if some cretins decide to rob or threaten you

uhuck

It seems that several people on this board equate PETA with relatively harmless nuts. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are ruthless bullies who are well connected politically, extremely well funded and who are in bed with eco terrorist groups such as ALF. They are not above threats, nor are they above carrying out the threats they hand out. Rather than a few kids having a bit of misguided fun, you should see these people as what they are - a dangerous threat to our way of life. Not just because of their beliefs, but because of the lack of ethics they show in following their agenda.

Have any of you been following the trial of the two PETA employees that took animals from a vet hospital, under the pretence of finding new homes for them? They killed those animals within hours - illegally and with illegally possessed substances - then dumped the bodies in a dumpster behind a store. They got a few days suspended sentence and a slap on the wrist fine for - wait for it - littering... It was not the first time that they had done it. Just the first time they had been caught. So any fuzzy notion of them taking those dear little bunnies and rehoming them in a loving pet home is in the realms of fantasy. They beleive an animal is better off dead than enslaved.

See www.Petakillsanimals.org

They conduct systematic terrorism on farmers, meat processors, meat packers, fur producers, pet breeders, anything to do with animal reproduction or husbandry. Their belief is that ownership of any animal is animal slavery.

Ingrid Newkirk (look her up - particularly look up her last will and testament) said "a rat is a pig is a boy" she thinks that all animal life is equal. One of her cohorts, asked whether if he would save a drowning child or a drowning dog said he would not have to think twice - he would choose the dog. Another said that he felt it was perfectly justified to commit arson at a laboratory (wherein all the animals were burned to death, incidentally) to make their point and draw attention to the "horrors" that were happening in the lab. Apparently burning to death was a minor inconvenience compared to whatever was happening prior to that.

OK. I'll shut up now. Just wanted to point out that this lady was not likely dealing with a few naughty children. She was almost surely dealing with a very real threat.


Mary in OK, who is usually a LOT quieter than this

BigDaddy, I'd say it comes down to realistically evaluating the threat. If she really had reason to feel in danger, the use of some force might have been justified (and "alone" seems an inadequate reason to me; I'm alone a lot and rarely see it as an excuse to haul off and harm people, though I have my moments ). If someone's doing it just to "prove a point" and swing their ego around? Silly, IMO. Legal channels exist, and if choosing to use them gets you the same result with much less personal strife, why not use them? What can I say - I'm a pragmatist.

Which doesn't mean I would necessarily react sanely...but I would hope I had better sense than to go completely ballistic. Most of the people who wind up in court over silly things like this are, well...turkeys.

As noted earlier, a 12 gauge makes a pretty loud boom, be a shame if those beemers and mini vans got peppered with buck shot.