A Big WHAT IF

it could be made from hemp seed oil. that would still be another industry though.

i think the things that would happen are happening. as was already mentioned, there would be scare tactics concerning the safety of food and the need for regulation. NAIS comes to mind as an example. there would be other controls on food like the white list and discussion of taxing vegetables grown as it were income. that is happening as well. if a person cannot homestead, grow his own meat and veggies, he needs a job. if he has a job, he makes an income that is taxed.

i think many of the other issues, like the funding of highways, could be done via consumer based taxation. toll roads should be brought back. forget about fuel tax, use milage based taxes.

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this message has probably been edited to correct typos, spelling errors and to improve grammar...

"All that is gold does not glitter..."

Probably, you are right, we will never be free of oil. But could a group of people decide to turn away from all that? Live without it, as it was before plastics and fuel changed life so very much? How would we know for sure unless a group tried it?
The Amish have come close to getting away from that, but even they are dictated to by government and corporations. As far as using horse power, (which I think is a good idea) even the Amish have to buy a plate and sticker for their buggies now. The government finds a way, don't they? And they will use a tractor to turn a pto shaft for some power. Just won't use the tractor in place of of the horsepower.
No offense, but I don't think making the effort to keep ones animal shelters clean is telling my neighbor "what to do". I don't think it matters what kind of shelter is used, nor would I presume to tell someone what they should use. I think it's just an obvious, common sense thing to keep the shelters and pens cleaned out on a regular basis. I loathe people who are micromanagers. But, I do appreciate sharing ideas with someone who may see a better, more efficient way of doing something. Each one has a way that works for them. Personally, I think if someone won't take care of their pets or livestock, they ought not to have them. Could I stand back and watch that animal suffer for lack of caring? because someone might think I was telling them what to do/deciding how they should care for their animals? No. We're also speaking of something that people want to pull together to do. Being less dependant on governments and corporations deciding on how we should live. That, I think is a bit different than asking your neighbor if he needs help spreading the built up rabbit poo under the cages, on the garden. donchya think?
Plastic is something I rabidly try to stay away from. I have cleared out 99o/o of my kitchen of those things. I use glass as much as possible. The few pieces I have left are used in non food situations. Giving thought to my environment, first of all, I try to make what I need myself. Shopping at thrift stores and taking my own cloth bags or baskets is another way of not encouraging the plastic bag thing. Making my own baskets is next on my list of skill learning. I try to consciously buy items that are not packaged in plastics, although, I will admit, that is getting harder to accomplish. Still, I keep trying.

There is plenty of good land. There is just a shortage of people willing to do what it takes to be independent, even partially.

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

No offense, but I don't think making the effort to keep ones animal shelters clean is telling my neighbor "what to do". I don't think it matters what kind of shelter is used, nor would I presume to tell someone what they should use. I think it's just an obvious, common sense thing to keep the shelters and pens cleaned out on a regular basis. I loathe people who are micromanagers. But, I do appreciate sharing ideas with someone who may see a better, more efficient way of doing something. Each one has a way that works for them. Personally, I think if someone won't take care of their pets or livestock, they ought not to have them. Could I stand back and watch that animal suffer for lack of caring? because someone might think I was telling them what to do/deciding how they should care for their animals? No. >>>>>>>>>

No offense taken - just citing what jumped out at me.

I realize you were pointing out you didn't want anyone telling you what to do as in have an outhouse. Yet, things like neighbor's trash would be a problem.

So see if I have a well and you have an outhouse next to me, I might have a problem.

I guess what I am pointing out is this is just a 'what if' - not even a planning and already someone's ideas are right and some are wrong - and some regulations are needed.

It isn't so easy.

I'm up for it. You are pretty much saying you want to live like they did around the turn of the century. Only problem i see is population.

1900 76 million Americans
today over 300 million Americans

@ some point oil output WILL drop to lower and lower levels. @ that point people will have to find alternatives. I call it walking/biking/and horseback. Economy will go to hell @ that point, and i'm sure MORE resource wars will come about (trying to get that last barrel). Time? Who knows, but it's coming. The movie "Children of Men" could be something like were looking @ here.

ah. Yes I see what you mean about the outhouse and the well. If I were a considerate neighbor, then I would definately try to find out the location of ones well.
I would think that any group of people trying to live peaceably together would have some sort of "regulation" system in place. Groups of people have always had some sort of "rules" in place. It just didn't seem to be as invasive to living as it seems today. Seems like pretty soon we'll need permission or certification to go to the bathroom. Way back when, one didn't need to ask permission to build a sod house or have a barn raising. Also, at one time craftmanship was a point of honor and pride, not some of the shoddy work we see today. As country loving and town living loathing as I am, I'm not sure I want to be so "self" sufficient as to turn my back on others. We need each other.
There is a museum of sorts in the area I live in. The Funk home and rock museum is located in Shirley, IL. I don't mean in any way to put these folks on a pedestal, but I do admire their, I can do attitude and seeing how they dealt with life and made it good. These people were alive in Lincoln's time, they spent time with him and David Davis and others. They were VERY self sufficient, they made their own electricity for their home. Here on the prairie, they had it and had Christmas lights. It's not part of the tour, being down in the basement but I would love to see it. There are many inovations in the home that they made themselves. But they were not so self sufficient that they shied away from their neighbors and their community. A lot of what they did, they shared with others.

I can see where the population brings it's own problems. I think people in the larger cities could bring things together if they wanted to. Don't some groups band together and maybe buy a lot, specifically for sharing gardens? I believe I've read articles sharing this concept, even buying a lot to turn into a neighborhood playground that they police themselves to keep it safe and clean? I realize apartment living would not be conducive to raising a garden, or livestock, but just having a few herb plants would help in buying spices from the store. a start, right?
Supporting a local grocery rather than a corporate chain? or buying or trading for food from the groups who have the garden in the lot?
You know, I'm not so much opposed even to paying a tax. It's the over taxation and misuse of the funds that get my goat. It's the idea that I have to help support a president even after his term is over, for the rest of his life that grinds my gears. It seems we are expected to live within our means, but why can't the government do so as well?
Here in Illinois they are trying make it so that people who are using a system such as Samaritin Ministires instead of "regular" insurance may have to use a state mandated insurance. What is so wrong with people helping other people themselves, person to person? My daughter is in this program and she received a letter from Samaritin to be aware of this going on.
I think we need to have more folks who are brave enough to go "dump the tea overboard" as they did long ago.

That's micromanagement. You don't want the government telling you how to spend your money, but you think you have the right to tell your neighbour how often he should muck out his barn??!!!!

Go figure.

Pete

I've picked enough canning jars out of the garbage to can 2 cows, 3 pigs and 2000 jars of fruit and vegies. No buying jars here, every other idiot is throwing them out!

Pete

Lessee; Mushrooms and Tilapia from China, clementines from Spain, roasted peppers from Greece, grapes from South America, asparagus from anywhere but the US, beef from down under, and on and on and on....

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United states of America

Born July 4, 1776

Died November 4, 2008

Suicide

Throwing out canning jars? Oh, that hurts, but glad you found them.

I am trying to replenish mine. We sold our 'farm' , and almost everything else. My jars went also.

We do find them at yard sales sometimes. It seems I found a lot more when I wasn't buying!

Actually, the Dollar Store, Fred's, and Alco all sold jars much cheaper, this summer. I was just checking.

The new jars are so much thinner than the ones I had.

Keep rescuing those jars.

That may be because recyclers don't want them for some reason, maybe the type of glass. Maybe some folks don't think they have the ability to can their own food, especially low acid tomatoes which will go bad quickly if not done properly. Besides one cannot sue one's self if one poisons one self. Maybe some folks just do not have the time, or really do not know what canning food is, being exposed to commercial food all their lives. My sister, who was a full time music teacher showed us how to cook down seasoned tomatoes first, put into ziplocs, flatten them and freeze them. Yes freezers use energy, but so does hot canning.

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United states of America

Born July 4, 1776

Died November 4, 2008

Suicide

Well Pete, no, I don't go tell my neighbor how many times he should muck out his barn. I'm not the "muck" police. How does spending my money.. or what does spending my money have to do with my neighbor and how deep his muck is? I also don't tell my neighbors how to spend their money. I'm sorry if I touched off a cord here, I was just trying to add to the conversation in a meaningful way.
Wow. I guess my idea of micromanagement and yours is very different. As an example of what I think micromanaging is is when I need my children to do something, I may tell them how I do it or give helpful hints but often times I don't care how they do it as long as the job required gets done. And I leave to let them do the job. Micromanaging would be staying to tell them each and every move and critiquing it along the way. I'm proud of the way they've come up with some very creative ways of accomplishing things. Is this your idea of it or could you explain?
Well, maybe it's time I bowed out of the conversation. Have enjoyed the thread. No ill will at all.

I didn't mean to offend.

Somehow, some of the posts made me wonder if we just how much we really wanted less or no government.

When the first rule is decided 'for the good of all', then it is easier to decide the second one, etc., etc.,

Government will always find ways of taxing us - no matter where we are, its their only skill!
Try using vegetable oil in your diesel vehicle, I know of someone who gets it free from restaurants and cleans it up for use. If you use veg oil as fuel in the UK it is taxed (well what would you expect?!)
Here in Ireland plastic bags are taxed, so you hardly see them now - everyone carries their own cloth bags
Hardware stores are starting to sell solar panels and wind generators as electricity and oil prices are rising so fast and we're due another huge increase soon. I think in ten years solar and wind turbines will be as common as satellite dishes now.
They won't be sold by the environment or self sufficiency angle but by the cost of the alternatives.

By the way, that brings up a funny argument I see people make. They say one should use a cloth bag instead of paper or plastic. I disagree. I go shopping about once every two to three months. I buy a whole van load of groceries, staples, when we go shopping. I can't have that many cloth bags. The cost of that many cloth bags would be absurd. More importantly, since I'm not shopping every few days like the people with cloth bags I'm saving gasoline that far outweighs the paper bags and I use the paper bags. They are a useful item for me that I get when I go shopping which I want. Part and parcel. If you just go shopping for a little bit at a time then the cloth bag makes sense. But not for everyone.

Cheers,

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

I think not only will the government find ways to tax - they will find ways to restrict.

If a large amount of people were growing their own food, enough to make a difference, you would soon find that we had to have a permit to grow food, maybe even health certificate, etc., etc.

I swear I heard a congresscritter say people didn't know how to safely grow food and the government needed to look into some regulations, etc. Maybe he had been inhaling or whatever - or - maybe it was to see what kind of reaction he got.

Yes, I can see it now. Already they want to keep track of the animals - and I am sure you will have to have the up to date vaccinations, etc.

Your property tax may even be more if it provides you with food, etc.

We had a couple of calves processed. They said the government now demanded that meat hang for 2 weeks before it could be cut and packaged.
The meat does not taste as good as meat we have had processed in the past that we got back in a week.

It doesn't have any smell when it cooks - I mean it has no good meat smell. It is kind of 'mealy'. I can't explain, but the texture is all wrong. We have raised a calf from the same dairy, using the same feed and same methods about 2 years ago and it was as good as I remember.

I really thought I would just eat until I was sick of meat when this got back. I don't really even care to eat it. It doesn't taste bad - it just doesn't taste.

In twenty years the "land of the free and the home of the brave" will be Brazil.

Canada has already lost it, the USA is only steps behind. I'm thinking of moving.

Pete