pyr pair killing goats

off topic, but michael w smith, that may well be a selinium deficiency-the weak legs-try giving selenium a couple of weeks before the goats kid. i think it's selenium i'm thinking of...


on topic-fil needs to be released from his responsibilities to those goats-he's obviously incapable.

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I actually fully support the "let the animal live or die on its own" argument, provided that the animal is WILD. If I own the animal, I have an investment in it, financially for sure and likely emotionally. It would be ridiculous of me to ignore my investment when it's under immediate risk (like a tough birth). Regardless my immature (or ignorant) thought that the "animal should know what to do", I help, because I am protecting my interest in the investment.

Of course that's just me...

R

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For a temporary measure, muzzles on the dogs when nobody's around to supervise (loose enough that they can still eat and bark and such) may provide some peace of mind.

My Pyr puppy wears one when we aren't around as he likes to play with the sheep (he pulled enough fleece to leave a couple half naked, and bit the ram's neck in a play hold that would've been trivial for another Pyr pup, but sure hurt the ram). As he grows he'll stop this behaviour, I know, but the muzzle helps keep everyone safe from his play. He can still bark and chase coyotes off, so it works well for us.

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Apple Jack Creek
near Edmonton Alberta
author of Just Keep Knitting: a journey of healing through forgiveness, faith, and fibre and The Rookie's Field Guide to Supported Spinning

I had a Pyr who was 4 months old when we got him, and had been trained to guard (raised with) alpacas. We also had some pygmy goats. When kidding came around, he killed a couple baby goats, and then 2 months later he killed a $30,000 alpaca. We didn't remove him because everyone said the same things, something must have been wrong with the babies, etc.
When we spoke to his breeders they said that of the litter of 12 he was from, 3 of them had turned out to be livestock "killers".
So, I have learned from this. 1st, never leave a young Pyr alone with animals, and 2nd, learn that when they kill babies it is a bad sign, remove them immediately.
I have a new Pyr, he is a doll, but he is 8 months old and is not left unattended with the animals yet. He is allowed out when we are there, and I hope to be able to gradually trust him.

I am sorry, good luck, Kimberly

Not meaning to rehash this, but I just ran across a rather interesting article and immediately thought back to this discussion. Not quite applicable to this situation but it might benefit some of these posters and readers at some point.

http://www.agprescue.com/lgd.html#ylgd

THE YOUNG LGD AND LAMBING TIME
By Catherine de la Cruz

Livestock Guardian pups are most often purchased during lambing season so there are young lambs for the pup to grow up with. So the first time she is left alone with lambing ewes is around the age of a year - a time when her own development is still incomplete. The following story is common.

The sheep grower comes out to the pasture and finds a ewe who has recently lambed. Her nose and ears are torn and bleeding, and the rancher's first thought is "dog attack!" The livestock guardian dog is found, often with blood on her fur and an uninjured lamb nearby. The rancher's first thought is usually that the dog has "smelled blood and gone crazy." Many potentially good livestock guardian dogs have their careers cut short at this point. However, had the sheep grower witnessed the "attack," this is the most likely scenario.

A ewe - usually a yearling at her first lambing - gives birth to a lamb. Confused, she wanders away to give birth to its twin. The livestock guardian dog finds the apparently abandoned lamb, licks it clean and begins to treat it like a puppy. (This is true whether the livestock guardian dog is a male or a female.) Something about "motherhood" gets through the dim processes of the ewe's brain and she decides to take care of the second lamb. Shortly afterwards, she vaguely remembers she has another one around somewhere and goes to look for it.

At this point, the young dog, not sure of its responsibilities, decides to "protect" its lamb against the pushy ewe who seems to think it belongs to her. In the unequal struggle, the ewe butts the dog and the dog retaliates with her teeth. The ewe is injured, and the sheep grower now has several problems on her hands - new lambs, an injured ewe and a confused dog.

It is of little comfort to learn that many young livestock guardian dogs go through this stage; it is probably more reassuring to learn that almost all of them outgrow it and it never recurs. The most immediate problem is how to deal with the dog's behavior.

Lock the dog up alone until ewe and lamb are cared for and penned together. Then plan to watch the ewes closely for the next birth, hoping to correct the dog's behavior before more damage occurs. When you see a ewe about to give birth, put the dog on a leash and allow her to watch from a distance comfortable for the ewe. (Some experienced ewes actually seek out the dog's protection when they lamb; others want the dog as far away as possible.) Before the lamb is on its feet, lead the dog around the ewe, keeping the ewe between the dog and the lamb. The dog needs to learn here not to separate the ewe and lamb. If the ewe charges, let her hit the dog, if she can do so without hitting you as well. Correct the dog sharply if she attempts to retaliate.

Repeat this supervision as often as possible during the lambing season; learning when not to interfere, and when to care for a lamb that has actually been abandoned, takes experience. See to it that the dog has the chance to learn this during her first lambing season. Encourage her to spend time with the "bummers" - lambs that are being bottle fed - as this will satisfy some of her curiosity about the newborns. Teach her, by physical restraint, not to get between a ewe and her lamb. If a ewe butts her, forestall retaliation with a sharp "No!"

Once she is through her adolescent period, your livestock guardian dog will be a calm and reliable guardian, even for lambing ewes. The "episode of the bloody ear" will be turned into a positive learning experience for both of you. One day, when your livestock guardian dog is older, experienced and sedate, content to sleep in the sun, you will see the old torn-eared ewe and remember when you were all younger and still had a lot to learn. And you will be grateful you had a chance to learn it together - you and your reliable old dog.

longshadowfarms, I lost a goat kid sort of like the article says this kidding season. The doe was a first-timer, and I was not present to see all this, but I put it together that my dog had gone over to check out the kid, which caused the new mother to shy away. The dog cleaned up and claimed the kid. But the kid never got the colostrum, and it was born on a cold night, and was dead when I found it the next morning. Nice kid, too.

I have since chained my Pyr until all kidding is done, which will be soon. I hold nothing against my dog for this behavior, and will wait to see what happens in a future kidding season as she matures. She is just now 2.

Unfortunately, all the advice about training is extrmely time-consuming, and I have found that the dogs I have experience with are hard heads by nature, no matter how much time you put in. All they learn is not to do it when you are there. Many do straighten up after 2 years old or so, but I do not have the time to train 24/7. I have a job and other responsibilities.

In talking to other locals with Pyrs, we agree there is a wide range of behaviors among them. As one farmer told me, "It's hard to buy a real good one...they don't come up for sale!"

I still hold out hope for my Sadie, though. I think keeping her chained has been a form of training for her. We'll see.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

thanks for all the great advice!!

update- i'm glad to report that these dogs got through this kidding season without any problems. it seems to have been an isolated incident.

My Pyr is in a slightly different situation, he is a poultry protector. He is double fenced in that he has a very large enclosure and my poultry pens are inside of his enclosure. That said, he is proving to be very good with the birds. He has never tried to even grab a feather. The most he has ever done is get the zoomies and if that happens, whatever is around him had better fly! If they are in his pen they can fly so it isn't a real problem. He was awesome when we got him through a rescue (he was an outdoor pet in the suburbs) and just gets better with each passing day! We have been incredibly blessed to have found him! I've posted before that he kept us up half the night and we found a new calf the next morning. That happened twice this calving season. He's not even technically there to guard the cows but he sure lets us know when something different is going on. I truly understand that someone would not want to sell a good guardian! When you've got one that works well, life is good!