Problem with newly bought property

LOL seems pretty obvious to me. Face it you found it so it could be found, you just didn't know what to look for before you bought the place. Its the price of admission to the school of real life with your eyes closed. Why is it a problem? You seem pretty excited about it. A lot of folks would consider it an asset. You keep saying he knew it was there But I notice you talk about him owning the place ,not living on the place. So maybe he never knew .Heck even if he did I know people who have lived in a house for years without knowing what certain switches and pipes were .
You also refer to "all the trouble this guy is now causeing me" Is that what this is really about? What trouble is that?
He may not have been out to shaft you maybe he is just stupid?

I am completely of the opinion that you should dig the tank up and dispose of it for scrap metal on your own. This is the path of least resistance and will allow you to engage in the quiet enjoyment of your property.

Consider this. If you pursue the prior owner in court, the cleanup authorities will INSIST that the cleanup takes place, at once, by the book, and at YOUR cost. 5 figure expenses are normal. Then come the attorney fees. Ever hear anyone sing the praises on how little their attorney charged them? Certainly you have a very good legal case and its doubtful a civil case would result in anything but a legal victory on your part. Winning in court and actually getting paid, unfortunately, is far from certain. Liens mean next to nothing for some people.

Twenty years ago a local farm got sold. It had an underground gasoline tank that had leaked. The outfit that bought the farm soaked over $30,000 in the hole trying to get rid of all the contaminated soil. Finally they drilled 5-6 shallow wells around it and have to check periodically to make sure the contamination is staying put.

Practically all of these old underground gasoline tanks will be rusted through. They make them now for gas stations out of FRP and they are double wall contruction to boot.

Good luck.

For every dollar someome makes, someone else looses a dollar.
You got the short end of the stick here! It happens sometimes.

1) Dont use it! It is likley rusted.
2) Call a lawyer.
3) Dont call epa or other athority!

Chances are it is empty or nearly empty. Gas is pricey and likley got used. Sometimes you just loose. I think this is one of those times. If it were not a possible hazmat issue then I would say sue! But you will walk away a looser either way I feel here.

What I would do is see if its empty. Then rent a backhoe and dig along side it documenting the process. If the soil stinks of fuel then you may have no choice but to sue and involve EPA.
But chances are you simply have an old empty fuel tank that you will need to remove on your own to avoid the risk of huge losses. Unless it proves to be more...just accept this will cost you a days work and some rental fees and add that to the purchase price. Would that price still be a good deal? If so smile and let it go.

Do you plan on keeping the property until you die? If you plan to sell at any time in the future, you will have to disclose that you know about the tank and the possible soil and groundwater contamination from the tank.

Go get competent legal advice.

What!!! You got to be kidding me, how can this be an asset; and yes it is a problem. You just don't understand the gravity of the situation! And no, this guy is not stupid, he runs a very successfull painting business. Nobody is going to convince me he didn't know. He and his wife, and his 2 sons and their families spent plently times there, espically since they only lived about 50 minutes away from this camp. Since you say he is stupid, let me point out another thing that "Oh, I guess he just didn't know". The heat for the cabin is supplied by a 240 LB. propane tank. He told me the tank was full and All I had to do was turn the gas line onin the cabin, hold down the pilot button and lite the furnace. So when I get there for hunting the place is naturally cold, like 44 degrees, I try to lite the furnace. After about 20 minutes I figure there is something wrong here. I go outside and check the line and lift the cap on top of the tank, and find something is missing, there's a 8 inch gap between the line and the valve. I have no phone, so I spent one really cold night in that cabin. Next day I go to the realtor's office and explain the situation. They call this guy up and naturally he doesn't know anything about the propane tank's missing piece and says it worked okay for him. I called the propane company from the office (I took their phone number off the tank) and explained the problem and told them I was the new owner. The girl looked up the guy's record and than told me they had to disconnect the tank (take the regulator off) because he didn't pay for his propane delivery,even after sending him multiable notices. She than stated they could send someone out to replace the regulator, but I would have to pay the $179.00 for the gas in the tank that he defaulted on. So you still think he's stupid??? He's just a lieing sack of crap!

I would be concerned if you ever plan on selling the property I have been involved in many cases here in California where just this happened. Typically the “damages” is limited to the cost to remedy the situation. However, the consequences here can be very expensive if the tanks leaked. It all depends on your State laws. I would definitely contact a real estate atty.

Oh, yes. Attorney. It's a big headache but you need this taken care of now. A gasoline tank is not like a fuel oil tank that has some protection against corrosion, so if it's leaked, this is trouble. Sue the SOB and let him pay for the removal.

Jennifer

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-Northern NYS

We do not know how big the tank is, this may be of some importance. You call it a gas tank, but is it gas or something else? In my state, Ohio, right next door one cannot remove an underground tank withour involving the EPA (legally). They are from the government and they are here to help, and help they will by the dozens.

Now you ask what to do, so lets take a look at the options.

You probably bought this property because you liked it and wanted it. Did you buy title insurance? Some have the idea that the property needs to be financed to have title insurance, not so. This is usually the requirement of the lender, but it is wise to buy title insurance on any property with or without financing.

The underground tank may become an encumbrance on the property and may cause the loss of use and enjoument of your property. I think that you are not enjoying this already. Title insurance would have an obligation to clear up this mess if the tank became an issue, and if you have title insurance. The tank will become an issue as soon as the wrong party finds out that it is there.

The lawyer is going to ask you why the tank is there, and how long it has been there. Good questions, do you know the answers? If you can prove (in court) that the previous owner knew that the tank was there you and your expensive legal team can sue him for the cost of the tank and soil removal, as well as the legal fees. I know of a case like this in GA. a while back that cost $250,000 for the removals to the satisfaction of the EPA. Remember they are here to help.

Big question here, If you win in court can the previous owner pay?

A solution that would work a little better in my neck of the woods would be this. On a sunday afternoon take a drive around the area. Look for a backhoe. When you find one go find the owner and ask him if he would like to have a free tank, and $200 for fuel. Show him where it is. Tell him he gets the money when the item is gone. When its gone pay him, in cash. No recipt.

Less said the better, and bear in mind this problem will not go away by itself. It will not get cheaper over time either.

Have you tried to stick the tank? It is possible that it has already been filled in and is no longer a hazard.

If your going to attempt to go after the previous owner first look at the heating system and see who installed it. Generally there is a sticker of some sort with a phone number. You may get lucky and discover that the previous owner changed from heating oil and you'll have him in the lie. What happens then is up to you and your lawyer.

Yup, That's what I meant. An attorney will help remediate the dollar loss by bringing the previous owner into the equation.

Disposing of it your self will not help you determine how much soil is contaminated, if any. Just getting rid of it with contaminated soil around it doesn't sound very organic to me. It's amazing how many people will squawk about organic living and then ignore something like a possible soil issue that a leaking tank like this can cause. Hydrocarbons are very adept at spreading and not healthful at all.

Edited to add: I know Bear wasn't talking about organic living, but many here do, and many here advocate just pulling and ignoring the rest of the issue.

I would start with your realtor or his/her broker. Tell them the situation and see if they can help. If not, then I'd move onto the sellers' broker. When we sold our house, there was something in the contract about the agents being covered by an extra insurance policy that paid us $25,000 if they made some mistake in the transaction that was detrimental to us. I forget what it was called, but you might want to check on that.

Look at the contract and see what it spells out for recourse if it's filled out fraudulently.

Bear-

You got shafted, plain & simple-I feel badly for you. I have no advice except to let the realtor know & find a great lawyer. That guy who sold the place to you is an absolute sack of poop w/no morals.

Patty

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It can be an asset if it is in good shape and you use it.
Why is it a problem?
You are right I dont understand the situation please explain it.
you say he lived 50 miles away, that would seem to give him an excus for not knowing the intercsies of the camp.
thanks for the propane story it gives a little fuller insight as to the situation.Id say you might wanna talk with a lawyer if you want to annul this sale but be very carefull,if this tank is the huge problem you think it is you dont want to alert anyone before you are assured you will be away from the problem.

In most states underground gasoline/ fuel oil barrels are a huge, huge liability these days. New ones can be installed with double (or triple?) construction, built in leak detectors, and state inspections.

Old ones have turned into a liability. If the EPA finds it, it will be removed, as well as soil, with much state help & expense. Whether it needs all that or not. _You_ (current land owner) will get the bill for it. Over time, the state may sort out who is legally responsible for it, and collect some of the money from them. If that happens, you get some money refunded to you.

From then on, your property will have a mark on it, and that spot may need inspections & testing every so often.

It truely can get very expensive.

If the tank did not leak at all, it still will be $8,000 min for the EPA types to sort that much out.

One would be a fool to use an old underground tank in today's world. It would only add to the problems.

And yes, back in the day, the govt types encouraged farm tanks to be burried, it was so much better because of the stable temp, it was state of the art......

--->Paul

why not take a soil sample somewhere down from the tank? i would atleast contact a lawyer and see what options i had.

dig a few places around the tank about 1 or 2 feet down do you see oil do you smell gas no ok now stick a stick in it is there anything in it if so pump it out then fill with sand sand is cheap and will keep it from floating up then cut off the pipe and cover 2 days talking about it i would have had it done with no mention

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Don't complain, just do it

We think along the same lines. I was thinking that gas is a little over $2 a gallon right now and can only go up. I'd fill it if I could be certain it didn't have a leak.

It WILL leak at some point or another. This is just courting disaster. That clock is ticking.

Did you have a home inspection? Did you have your own agent? Did you have an appraisal? Did you ever ask the question about tanks? The trouble with some disclosure forms is that they are sometimes ambiguously interpretted - if it said environmental hazards and the guy checked no he might not have considered it a hazard to have an underground gasoline tank, especially if it hadn't leaked, he wasn't aware of a leak, or he wasn't using it anymore. He could have also forgotten about it.

The trouble with just digging it up and taking it out on your own, beyond what others have said, is that then when you go to resell, you will have to lie about finding the tank and what you did to get rid of if. You will have to decide if that is a liability you're willing to take on. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

A quick mention about agents not having liability, in some states they have more liabilty than in others and they have to do some due diligence to check out the property. However, they aren't usually experts in the field of environmental issues and people are human and make mistakes (or just look the other way). The laws in most states, however, state that if you are going to sue, you will need to name EVERY possible involved party or run the risk of the judge throwing out the case since you left out another party to which others can point. As the case progresses they sort out who is really responsible and dismiss parties with no liability as that is determined. However, in many cases, the errors & omissions insurance policies that many carry would attempt to settle with you long before this ever gets to court.