bale houses

snoozy,

would you mind my posting pics?

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"Ain't nothing worse than the smell of mendacity"-- Big Daddy, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof

The most successful technique? That'll be a tough one to substantiate.
It is certainly not very successful in terms of
history. 1000 year old cob homes are still standing strong in many places.
I guess "success" is relative to what you are comparing with.


The current housing industry may be too "fractionated" to be pushing an agenda, but historically they were very successful in influencing building codes - and many were written in such a way that folks had no alternative to purchasing their materials from "the industry". (example: Codes requiring "graded" lumber even when timber was available on location for free.) Those same codes remain in place today and are a bear to change.

We're going to experiment with strawbale and cob technology on some our outbuildings - I'm with those who love that cotswold cottage look and feel.
We don't see that moisture is any more an issue for straw than it is for that
wood-splinter-glue-board they're using on all those mcmansions out there.

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Hut on the Hill Farm
http://www.hutonthehill.org

Interesting and well thought out post. I agree 100% with 50% of your thoughts. You are correct in the limitations of materials,and techniques that are easily approved in the world of modern codes. I think this has a lot more to do with comfort with the status quo and inertia that any effort on any particular industry. Anybody who wants to blaze a new path in the construction industry in North America has got a battle. Builders and code officials have little interest in innovation, they want continue tommorow, that which worked yesterday. In my job, I have literally spent well over 1000 hours walking construction sites with code enforcement officials. The true bureauocrats can be scary, almost soviet in there passionate desire to avoid thinking and reason, and their devotion to following the letter of the law. Two quick examples. An electrical inspector who made my company remove work that was done according to the owner's design, drawings, and specifications. Work that was properly installed, as per the latest national electrical code. I had to remove and reinstall the work to conform to a version of the code that was seven years outdated. The thinking of this mindless drone? The township he works for hadn't approved the last THREE code rewrites so he could not allow them to be used. In my township the building inspector enforces strange requirements that I was able to determine came from the local volunteer fire department reccommendations, written several decades ago. He will not even discuss this sillyness, Valueless rules that defy logic and current practice, it's in the book, do it, or else.
My response to the original post was not based on the fact that codes can be skewed against anything outside the mainstream, they absolutely are. My issue was the paranoid suggestion that it was a conspiracy from the stick building industry. The industry presently has no fear of competition from alternatives. Once oil hit $100 a barrel, and electricity is 30-40 cents a KWH, things will change. But just as GM builds as many giant SUVs as they can sell, builders will continue to build oversized, underbuilt McMansions as fast as they can sell them.
As for my claim that stick building is the most sucessful technique of modern times, it's not tough to substantiate, it's indesputable. First, cob, timber frame, stone or any other medieval technology are off the table. I said modern for a reason. Sawn dimensional lumber became an affordable reality in N.A after 1850, so there is no real argument as to it's ability to last 1000 years. We will have to look back in 850 years for a review. Secondly, after WW2 stick building wiped every other competitor off the map for a good reason, nothing was a cost effective, fast, alternative. The post war housing boom was a huge coast to coast effort to house millions of GIs and address the shortcomings in our national housing stock that started with the depression and lingered from '29 to the war. Stick building provided a way to quickly and economically build millions of homes that the average person could afford. One of the common, and deeply flawed, "facts" tossed around by many proponents of alternative building styles, is that stick building is inferior to whatever they are pushing at the moment. Sorry, but there is a serious lack of evidence for that claim. I have remodeled 100 year old structures that were stick framed and were perfectly servicable. I have repaired timberframe structures that were far older, and in serious trouble. Does this mean that one method is superior to the other? Absolutely not. Good design, construction techniques and maintanence can make a low cost, lightly built structure last for hundreds of years. Poor design, construction and maintanence can ruin a high dollar timberframe structure in a few decades. I'm not a proponent, or detractor of any type of construction in particular, I just have a pretty good understanding of the good and bad of most systems. Stick framed structures will continue to dominate the market for many years to come. For better or worse, they have made an enormous contribution to changing our landscape and culture, from WW2 to the present. The low cost, and high speed they brought to the table, created and contributed to, the sprawl that created the millions of square miles of suburbans we have today.
To really got a first hand look at how this happened, find a Fine Homebuilding article that Larry Haun wrote recently. Larry is a 70+ year old master carpenter from Southern California. He writes of the explosive post war growth of SoCal. Fifty five years ago he would take two helpers and completely frame a 900 ft. ranch house in a day, with hand tools. and no plywood. He speaks of looking across open fields, as far across a valley as you can see on a good day. Then looking a few months later and seeing houses as far as you can see from the same view. Can you imagine trying to build thousands of quick affordable homes like this using straw or cob? The thought of it is funny. The more things change, the more they stay the same. One builder in my area builds a fairly decent home today, sells it at a competitive price, and takes six weeks from the day he pulls the permit, until the customer takes possession. That is why stick building is the predominate force in North America, and why it clearly is the most sucessful technique of modern times. Is it the best way to do the job? It depends? Will it last for hundreds of years? Possibly. Are there stronger, more energy efficient techniques? Yes. Are there more enviromentally responsible methods? Absolutely? Do most proponents of other techniques claim that their method of choice is better by every measure? Absolutely! Has any other technique made significant in roads into the marketplace? No.

One of my sons works for a builder specializing in energy efficient houses (I mean really efficient, super insulated, no furnace needed in Wisconsin or Minnesota kind of houses), and many people want straw bale houses, so he has helped build a number of them in the last 4 or 5 years, and the fellow he works for has built many more in the last decade or so. My son's opinion, based on his experience, is that to hire someone to build a strawbale house for you will cost as much or more than the same size and quality house that is stick built and super insulated, but it will be a quieter and somewhat different feeling house (very deep windowsills, etc.) If you do the building labor yourself and find a source of good quality strawbales, and don't consider the cost of labor, you can build the strawbale house for somewhat less money. If you don't get good bales, and have to hire someone (like my son) to straighten walls and do the plaster on the inside and the stucco on the outside, it is going to cost you more again to finish the bale house.

So if you want to build a strawbale home, read a lot, take some workshops on strawbale building to learn some of the secrets, and then, if you can find a local source of cheap good bales, get going, but don't plan on moving in real soon.

I always figured I would use pole type construction and then insulate with the straw bales, (I figured the bales would be cheaper (and certainly more green) than the alternatives), so that I wouldn't have to worry about the bales being load bearing. I havn't looked at R-Values for bales in a while, but I seem to remember the numbers being a little less than advertised, although I am sure they are still excellent.

My brother was just telling me about someone who told him (eek, 3rd hand info!) about a strawbale house he took apart after 20 years. Where there were metal things (rebar, wires, pipes, cables, etc) passing through the straw there was mold and rot. He thought this came from the moisture condensing on the cold metal surfaces and then rotting the straw.

I can see strawbale being a good option in the dry areas but would not want to build with it in our climate here in Vermont where we have quite a bit of humidity. Winter would be fine, but the next summer would kill the straw.

On the other hand, I've built many a temporary winter strawbale / haybale animal shelter. The bales do fine over the cold of the winter and then in the spring the animals eat their homes when they no longer need them. Storage of the hay doubles as housing and wind breaks.

Cheers,

-Walter
in Vermont

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

I'd like to make a paperbale house someday. Paper bales are free (except for the hauling), ecologically better than straw, since they save tons of paper that can't be recycled from winding up in a landfill, loadbearing, more fire-resistant, and have better insulation properties than straw since they're quite a bit larger. Heating costs are fantastically low with paper bales.

I'm not knocking straw, exactly, but I defnitely would not want to live in a straw bale home where the bales were load=bearing. I have seen too many hay piles collapse- with heavy, tight, bales of alfalfa, not feather light and slippery straw bales.

It's unfortunate that misinformation, myths and poor construction seem to spoil what is really a good way to build a house and possibly turn off people before they even start. I can't tell you the number of wood frame houses that I've lived in that also suffered from poor construction and therefore moisture problems of rot, mildew and insects and yet as pointed out, the majority of North America rave about wood frame houses. Leaks and mould in wood frame homes and apartments in wet climates like Seattle and Vancouver are ongoing, as well as in much drier climates like Vermont or Ontario. Does that stop folks from building or buying wood frame homes? Perhaps it should? If one accused wood frame of being susceptible to moisture problems, which can easily be, then those building wood frame properly, would likely say that the construction methods were the problem, NOT the materials. The exact same argument goes for strawbale construction.

Poor workmanship with ANY type of materials is just that, poor workmanship. Good builders don't blame their tools or materials. There are MANY people in all sorts of climates living in perfectly dry strawbale homes. Nelson BC, quite a wet area, has lots of successful strawbale homes and lots of excellent builders. Why would they build strawbale homes in a wet, cold and snowy climate, load bearing and non load bearing, if the construction were not sound? How could they get coding approval or financing if it were as faulty as these rumours in this thread claim them to be? A few people build crappy homes and so of course the materials are to blame?

Moisture in strawbale construction is NOT a problem unless JUST LIKE in woodframe construction, the builders are sloppy. So please don't perpetuate the myth unless you also perpetuate poor workmanship at the same .

Load bearing strawbale construction is not to be feared either and Chamoisee, your comments ARE in fact knocking straw. The bales DON'T slip when built. There are several types of reinforcement in the process and together, they make extremely strong walls, much stronger than many types of wall construction. Are wood frame or paperbale walls built without nails or reinforcing, cause if they were, they'd slip TOO, not to mention, not even pass inspection? Sheesh!

It just doesn't make any sense to throw out comments unless you know about the construction and have worked with it and or with good workmen or you've learned proper building techniques, to just throw around heresay stories about the negative things that you believe to be true about strawbale construction.

There's also a huge difference between hay and straw. Hay is what animals eat...straw is nutrient deficient so animals DON'T want to eat it and is perfect for strawbale building. Has to not have some kind of mineral in it to be considered straw..the name escapes me at present time.

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Ted H

You may all go to Hell, and I will go to Texas.
-Davy Crockett

I guess some people like to do things the hard way. Stick is way cheep, easy and the path of least resistance. Plus your home will actually have re-sale value. Im guessing that maybe one in 5,000 people would even consider buying a bale house.
So there may be some benefits to bale houses, People choose to build stick at about 100,000 to 1 for a reason. They arent all fools beholden like sheep to the building supply companies.

Now if you want to make a statement, do something different or just like the looks then maybe straw bale is worth looking into.


Stick is an incredibly strong and reliable method and when being practical is most important then it wins hands down if for no other reason that your home will have value. Thats a big deal!

Dear Spam, do you have PROOF regarding your theory or opinion that strawbale homes have less re-sale value? Do you have proof in your statement that strawbale homes will hold their value less easiliy or even lose value compared to a stick house? Can you provide us with sales statistics of a variety of strawbale homes that have been extremely difficult to sell as you elude to, or have sold for less than they were built for, as you elude to, or cannot sell at all, as you elude to? If you can't, then fear mongering based on mis-information does not help this thread.

Of course there isn't a conspiracy going on in wood frame building to dupe the world, I aplolgize if my earlier thread insinuated that to rankle you, but the industries forces as mentioned earlier in the thread, are substantial in control and have MUCH to lose, as is each component's ability to advertise, as they MUST sell a lot of product to remain viable.

My anology to McDonalds "food" (I hesitate to call it food) also sells billions and billions and is cheap and easy and reliable (read the same, availible), but that doesn't mean that it is what everyone should be eating, or that it is the right thing to do or that it undermines the saleability of other quality foods, or organics, or even a steak in a fancy restaurant. It is affordable, convenient or tasty for many, but volume doesn't automatically make one thing better than another.

But mainly, please do back up your re-sale value claims with serveral facts and figures. You might be able to convince me with facts rather than fiction and fear mongering. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Everyone always says the resale value is "unknown". There aren't that many around, and there aren't that many for sale. One reason is, of course, that people who build strawbale homes build with permanance in mind and don't just flip it and do another. The other reason is, we like our homes!

I did a search here: http://www.greenhomesforsale.com
of strawbale homes, but since they are all over the map, both literally and with regard to size of house & acreage and other outbhuildings, it is really hard to compare if you don't know the local market. Like comparing apples and oranges in different countries.

I would submit that if someone appreciates the value of a particular method of construction, they will pay what it is worth.

[QUOTE=tiogacounty1. Code acceptance. There have been cases of homes that never left the drawing board, to homes that never were occupied due to the lack of a C.O., All a result of local and state code officials that refused to accept the method.


Sorry but I disagree that is a product of some highly inefficient and profitable industry with a hidden agenda. That sounds pretty paranoid to me. .[/QUOTE]
You said it yourself if their is no conspiracy then why the "codes" that prevent people from building the way they want on their properties with better materials at cheaper costs themselves?
Personally I would never live in a place with Codes and such that are enforced.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

Im not picking on you but you just sound silly!
Ive been involved in the realestate biz in one form or another since 1996. I can tell you a huge amount of folks wont even buy a used house for fear of the unknown. The more a house differs from modern construction and tecniques the smaller the buying pool. I have never encountered a straw bale house for sale, but can tell you its a fact most home buyers are nervous know nothings and run at the first whif of any thing scary. The slightly less standard constructed homes I did encounter like cinder block, log and modular all were very slow sellers that sold for less than stick framed of the same sf. These were pretty standard tecniques too, bale is much more obscure and frightening to most then those three. No person in their right mind would spend huge $$$$ on something they were unsure of because of resale value or possible building problems. Your market would pretty much be folks who want a straw houses and that is a very very small group like it or not!
I dont care if its the best tecnique ever, it would be a rare buyer who would touch it with so many other homes for sale. People are super carefull with their big investment and the FACT that it will be an odball with low resale value will scare that very rare buyer who has an open mind away. If you want to live in a delusional state thats your right.

If you can't admit that no more than about one in 5000 people are brave and educated enough to consider a bale house, then pay the same price per sf. as stick built (remember market determines price and stick built will have a bigger market) which would make no financial sense since a bale house WILL be worth less. You would have a hard time convincing anyone but yourself that a bale house would have good resale value.

So, even if a bale house is a better system (I dont think it is, but I dont hate it eather) To build it only makes sense as a labor of love for unusaul tecniques or eco friendly reasons. Its a very poor choice if real world things live value, speed and ease of construction are what your goal is.

I dont know the poster's wants. But if he is one of the many who think "stacking bales sounds easy" simply because conventional framing looks scary to them and they think they have found a tecnique that will be easier and quicker. Then I think its fair to warn them that it will cost the same or more to build and alot more if they ever sell. Most folks dont stay in a house forever. It also wont be faster to build.

So if you are into bale houses simply because you think it is quick, cheep and easy......RUN!!!!!!!!! Thats not the reason to build with bales as almost everyone agrees stick is easier, faster and more valuable.

In Austin,TX strawbale houses sell like hotcakes due to the influence of hippies and enviromentally friendly folks with a more open minded mindsets I've seen alot of those houses and they look quite good and are in excellent shape so you haven't seen them in person so do not judge unless you've actually built and owned one. Perhaps elsewhere people are more close minded.

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Ted H

You may all go to Hell, and I will go to Texas.
-Davy Crockett

I would think that humidity levels would be too high there...is that not true? Since our house is now about finished, I was looking for a new project and would love to build a smaller stawbale home here in NW La..but always figured the humidity levels would be too high.

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Christanie Farm...living life as it was intended

THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT. PEOPLE ARE CLOSED MINDED AND JUDGEMENTAL. Most buyers havnt built or owned one. Definately less than one in several hundred thousand have. HIPPIES AND ENVIORNMENTALLY FRIENDLY FOLKS ARE FAR AND FEW BETWEEN AND FEW HAVE MONEY (some do, I know). Maybe bale houses would have a "niche" market in some hippie spots. Ill give you that. But your post kind of makes my point for me.

Actually, things are changing -- this is from the BBC:

"Ethical spending has out-stripped retail sales of booze and cigarettes for the first time. What's driving this green spending spree?

The words "ethical" and "consumerism" would once have looked like an unlikely pairing.

Consumers wanted to consume stuff. They wanted to get exactly what they wanted at the best price. Ethical shopping was strictly on the green fringes, where a small band of enthusiasts banged on about animal rights and fair trade.

But in the past decade, the concept of shoppers exercising an ethical choice has become part of the mainstream. Supermarket aisles are devoted to organic products, energy companies promise greener power, banks advertise their ethical investment policies.

Free-range eggs used to be a niche market - now there are supermarkets that sell no other variety. Fair-trade drinks were once marginal - now if you have a coffee in Marks and Spencer, it's the only type they serve.

Eco-awareness

The annual survey of ethical spending in the UK, compiled by the Co-operative Bank, shows a record level of £29.4bn. This means that green spending has overtaken the £28bn spent on alcohol and cigarettes (excluding pubs)...."

More at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6187338.stm

The idea that one's house must appeal to every buyer or even most buyers is kind of absurd. NOBODY'S house appeals to most buyers. You must merely find the few to whom it will appeal. Thanks to the internet, ecologoical awareness and modern communication, it is much easier than it was a decade or 2 or 3 ago.

Aintlifegrand,

Sir, you've not been to Austin, I take it? That area is very dry and very little humidity with alot of rocks (limestone). There's alot of humidity in East Texas due to lakes and such but not for most of Texas. Austin is actually a neat area to live but I moved out of that area due to high cost of living. The average house costs around $160k and jobs in that town didn't rise enough to match your living expenses. I was working for the state of Texas and making $9.75 an hour and I had to have roommates for the last 5 years I lived there. State of Texas very rarely gives pay raises like the private sector but gives nice holidays and days off, etc so I basically quit and moved to Wichita, KS where cost of living is much lower and I am working a part time job right now and being happy. Austin is a very much a single person's dream town because it's in top 5 places for singles to be. Many outdoor/indoor activities. It's a runner and biking delight for those who are inclined to use bikes or run.

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Ted H

You may all go to Hell, and I will go to Texas.
-Davy Crockett

Values and stuff, I think, are location based. If I were to build a straw bale [for myself] I would talk to the banks and insurance companies. Ultimately they're the ones that are going to lend on it or insure it. If you find a bank that is aminable, it's probably more common in the area.

If they shy away, there's probably a good reason. Doesn't mean bales are good or bad. But if banks don't want to lend on them that means, they don't know them, people around the area won't buy them so the bank doesn't want to get stuck with one in the event of forclosure, if someone won't insure it, it's a problem. It doesn't matter what the market will bear. If you go to sell it in an area where banks and insurance co.s don't want them it will be hard to sell to someone else.

You can say you're building it for your own pleasure, but, there's is a practical side to consider also. (wouldn't want to leave a white elephant to the grand kiddies would you?)

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