Off grid..........why?
 

I see a lot of folks talking about being off grid, and I can't help but wonder what the attraction is?
I'd like to have a place, a little cabin or something for weekends that was "off grid" so I could "rough it" on weekends or when the mood struck me, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be off grid full time.
I need running water, dependable heat and AC in the summer.
I'm not being a wuss, I just work too hard to live like that.
What's the attraction of going off grid for those of you who are striving to achieve gridlessness?

The idea isnt to do without ,its to do with for less.

I want to be off grid but I will have all the things I want. I will use solar and wind.

It is about being not reliant on the power company and not adding to global warming.

I think it depends where your location is, how long of the year you stay there, and your basic lifestyle goals.
For example, in this area there are submarine power cables linking to some islands and mainland across the lake. Depending on your cabin, or year round home for that area, you might be able to have power linkup without much cost, but if the distance to bring in more cable from the source, you'll pay through the nose to get power. Therefore, it makes more sense to have solar pv panel power in those places....and a fuel powered generator for backup.
Where I reside, the hydro line is already here to hook up to, within a hundred yards or less, so it's more feasible to have electric grid power. Some people also may choose to integrate 'off grid' power that they generate to sell back to the utility to offeset the cost of their grid power use for things they wish to have like clothes dryers, air conditioners and such.

The places we most want to be seem to consistently be the place where the grid isn't.
Nonetheless, we wound up in a compromise. Our farm is is grid connected but we are planning to add a reverse meter.

Energy rebates here in NY are not available unless you are on the grid and selling back you excess power.

Off grid doesn't necessarily mean no electricity, it usually means producing your own and being efficient with it.

Utility companies are regional monopolies. We're at their mercy for what they charge and subject to outages due to their lack of investment in infrastructure. I don't like that. When you can invest in your own power production, you're free of that dependency. If it wasn't for AC in the summer, I'd be off grid right now. I hear on the grapevine that there is a breakthrough in solar panels comming up. I'm waiting until then to invest in solar and also in more development in DC airconditioning units so that power won't be lost converting DC to AC. Why not do it if you're able and willing?

I'm with you Cornhusker. Our electricity bill averages about $35 per month. If we tried to produce (and store) our own electricity it would cost many times more than this amount.

I can see not wanting to rely on someone else, but is it a money thing?
What's it cost to set up solar?
Is wind feasible?
Wind we got.

That's what I wondered, if it was worth the expense and work.
I'm getting on in years, and I'd like my life to get easier as I get more decrepit.

I understand what you're saying, but to nitpick could you restate saying you want to minimize global warming, if such a thing exists? The second you utilize the power from solar or wind, current flows generating heat, thus however miniscule compared to a power plant, nevertheless contributes to the rise in ambient temperaure in addition to the heat load created by whatever appliances you use in addition to the 450 watt computer you type on. I won't mention the gases released when charging and discharging batteries, or their ultimate disposal. :)

Before the liberals in their expert and infinite knowledge insisted public utilites be deregulated, we operated as efficiently as safely possible. We were regulated to make only so much profit and any excess had to be returned to the customers. After Enron and other interests suckered them into insisting on deregulation, now everyone gets to keep all their profits while still generating at the same heat rates and efficiency. And we wonder why our bills are higher? That being said, if there is a technical and economical breakthrough in solar, I will go for it just to be able to.

it depends on all your questions.

Cost? depends on what you want, how much you need, what you need to operate on your stead to function.
For example, I took a quote to set up for Solar pv panels and controls for a moderate sized home to operate the deep well pump, lightiing (low wattage), run the heating system (forced air furnace), but not to include heavy appliances such as clothes dryer, air conditioner (we don't need that in this climate), dishwasher or range. Propane would be needed for the oven and maybe better even for a fridge.
Basic estimate was for 4 large panels and all the conrol mechanisms, inverter, etc. and a 20 year warranty battery bank. about $9,000.
Not bad, with a payback of only a few years, so it was feasable. But, we have short daylenght winters, so a generator would be required to power and recharge batteries. That made it prohibitive for me to use fuel that would cost more than my electric bill to supplement.
Wind is an option. A neighbor has both wind and solar. On windy winter days, there is little solar power generation but a few thousand watts of wind generated power. On summer 'still' days, the benefit is long daylenghts and solar PV generated power.
The more pv panels you can install to store more power, (more batteries too), the more you will get for energy, and the more it will cost....in a nutshell.

the only thing I would consider as an argument to minimize greenhouse gases is to plant as many trees as you can. They are natures carbon sink to help absorb CO2.
I have no idea about what a solar/battery setup produces for pollution with gases coming out of the batteries. That wouldn't be my motivation to get off grid alone.

Basic estimate was for 4 large panels and all the conrol mechanisms, inverter, etc. and a 20 year warranty battery bank. about $9,000.



You'd be better off investing the $9,000.00 in a good dividend paying
( 5% ) utility stock and applying the dividends to your electric bill ..

Triff ..

the main reason i am relocating off grid is to live within my means.and to simplify my life. I may change my mind after some time. I am looking forward to it very much though

no, not in my case and where I live, it would make sense.
the thing that put me off the decision to go solar was as explained. Short daylenghts in winter would cost to use a back up generator and burn fossil fuels that would cost more than the grid electric bill does now.
The investment in solar makes good sense where one does not have close access to hook up grid power.

perhaps one way of looking at it but
no, not in my case it wouldn't but as explained already it depended on the decision vs. the short winter day lenghts and use of a backup fossil fuel operated expensive use generator that would cost more than grid bills.
Solar pv makes good sense for out of the way places in this area where it costs too much to hook up to grid, but one has to be judicous as to what to expect for power for such a small investment. Most people invest much more to get more power they want.

The position of my particular location would suit better to make a small investment in summer solar and winter wind power generation to feed back to the utility company. The components, once set up are long lasting, and a one time investment. Once you generate enough to offset a 'free' or negative utility bill, the years after that are worth the investment IMO.
If you need to operate a fuel generator for any lenght of time, I'd reconsider seriously off grid solar or wind as a viable investment...UNLESS you have to pay a huge amount to connect for distance to a grid setup.

When we were off-grid we basically did it because that was where the cheap land was and we wanted to be "out there." We did a solar system like the one someone described above (4 panels, 2200-watt inverter, large battery bank, and generator) and our system $6100 for the solar part and $2000 for the genny. We really liked it for many things but not so much for others. Going off-grid involves either a major change in lifestyle or lots of money, both of which we found we were not really willing or able to accomplish realistically. We have decided now that while our new homestead will have grid-power, we would most certainly consider a solar system as an adjunct and feed back what we don't use to the grid. Also, as someone else mentioned above, we live in a very northern climate (both currently and when we were solar) and sun is something that we don't have a plethora of. Now, in the southern states I would think it would work really well.

We originally did it for 2 reasons: anti-nuclear protest (didn't want to use nuclear generated power) and it was cheaper than hooking up to the local REA utility.

We bought our first used wind generator, used telephone company batteries, and DC appliances and lights, and hooked it all up, for less than the $3000 that the utility would have charged us to run the wires in to the place. Then they would have charged us about $30 a month minimum electric bill (this was 1977, and our electric bill at our previous on-grid place was about $12 a month). So I figure our first system paid for itself as soon as we started using power from it, and saved us money every month after that. We later added PV panels (starting in 1981), got a better generator, moved it all to a grid-connected place, and are still using most of the system, although we did buy new batteries and add more PVs, inverter, better controls, etc.

We are in western Wisconsin and find that solar electric (PVs) work well here, and wind is marginal at our particular site. But even buying it all new today, our system would pay for itself in 20 years or so.

Bravo! I agree. Have both and smile if your meter runs backward.

Installing solar and a backup generator (it's Northern Alberta, I run the genny every couple of days for a few hours in winter) cost me about the same as getting grid connected ... but now I have no power bill (actually, I pay for gasoline for the generator, but will be able to hook it up to natural gas shortly).

I am connected to the natural gas pipeline for heat and cooking, as it runs under my property, but power was far, far away and you pay by the pole to get it to your house, THEN you pay a bill every month!

I will add more panels and a wind generator as soon as I am able, and that will reduce the need to run the genny ... I like not having a power bill, and I like not worrying about power outages if the grid goes down.

Mostly, I liked paying for infrastructure that would keep me going all on my own (maintenance is minimal - put water in the batteries every month) and NOT paying the same amount and THEN paying a utility bill! :D

I'm on grid and spend very little for electricity, but for the barn I'm planning to build, I want to use dual sources: both an on-grid hookup and a small solar powered DC set up. Part of the reason is just a security/independence thing, in case the grid goes down. Part of it is to just start experimenting with a renewable energy source. In terms of dollars and cents, the math would say (for me anyway) stay on the grid.

I too, wouldn't want to be off the grid. Our electric now costs about $40 average a month for 12 months. For us, I would not want to change our life style that much.

I would love to supplement our electric though. I think it would be great to at least be able to run lights from a solar or wind unit. Getting something for free and saving the enviroment (after investment) shows the homesteader inside of me.

I take my hat off to those who can make this lifestyle work for them, especially those who are able to create a system on the cheap, using ingenuity and creativity to accomplish the task. I have the upmost respect for them.
clove

The initail reason we went off-grid is that the local power company wanted somewhere around 20K to bring power to us. Also, my husband is an electrical engineer and setting up a solar and wind power system was a fun project for him. Since we moved from Phoenix and had horrendous power bills (all that AC in the summer), it's been fun not having any power bills and we have the added bonus of never losing power when the grid goes down in storms, etc . We do spend some money on propane for appliances and the generator in weather like this rainy and overcast stuff we've been dealing with. I imagine at some point we will bring power lines in here and at least be grid-tied.

Going offgrid was neither cheap or simple. If I wanted any semblance of modern life, like a radio or a tiny tv watched sparingly, I had to go offgrid, as the grid wasn't going to get to my place for years, if ever. Co-op quoted me 89K + R.O.W. issues (probably another 100K). So solar saved me.

But it ain't cheap.
And it ain't simple.

I had to spend ~4K for a very very basic system. And I had to monitor the system on a daily basis.

If someone think's they're going to simplify their life by going off grid, forgettaboutit. To get a system large enough so you don't have to monitor the status of power in/out and battery/inverter status, you'll pay more for the system than your house (well, at least my house :p ) is worth...

My system's still operating, but I'm on the grid for electricity... I still conserve as much as possible... my bills are always less than 2$/day, even with all of the fee's added on.

We were looking at property that had no water, electric or gas.Basically hunting land because we could aford the price/ac.

I ran an estimate for having the electric co. run electric it was going to be $20,00+. I ran a solar budget on what that would give us. I found out it would give us almost everything (lighting and small appliances) except air conditioning,cooking,furness,hot water, dryers, ref. would be on propane. Air was the deal breaker. Okla. is not fun in the summer w/o air. If air was not a problem we could have lived VERY comfy w/o grid electric. I would have done it in a heart beat.

we had to stop looking at places that didn't have electric. I limited our choices for "cheap" land.

For me, being off grid is very attractive because of the independance gained by it. For now, I live in the city on a nice sized lot which cost us a lot for electric and water. Water alone cost us around $70 to $100 each month and the Electric cost between $150 and $300 each month. This is not cheap!

I hate the thought of what would happen while living in the city if we had a total lost of OIL from outside of the USA. It would devastate all city dwellers! I can not get out into the country fast enough!!!

It has always been the consensus that being totally off the grid only made $ sense if the cost of getting the grid to you was astronomically high. Now if the extra costs don't bother you because of moral reasons, then go for it. I am in the net metering camp, it seems to me that the grid is a great way to avoid batteries and all thier associated problems, and avoid the emmisions/nuclear problems. Also, nobody ever mentions the inverters/ battery banks they have destroyed, that cost/benifit analysis changes a lot when take into account replacing equipment prematurely.

Thoreau
 

I was brought up "off grid" and lived more than a few years that way. It was a way of life that was enjoyable - I was a child - but I wonder how my parents "enjoyed" it. I know that it would be possible for me to live that way today without any problems - well, maybe water quality would be vastly different now - but truthfully, Walden Pond should be strictly read about and not necessarily experienced. I love homesteading but know that it doesn't have to be "that" primative. I enjoy the evolution of man and our 21st century life styles - aahhhh air conditioning.....central heat....refrigeration...

Hi,
Its not using the power that contributes to global warming. Its generating the power by burning fossil fuels. Its the carbon dioxide emmisions from power plants (and other sources) that is causing the climate change.
Its the carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases that reduce the amoutn of heat that the earth can radiate to space that is causing the warming. Any warming from heat produced by the power plants or your own use has a negligible effect on global climate.

The only global warming contribution that solar heating and solar PV are responsible for is whatever was generated during their manufacture, and this is a very small fraction of what they save over their life.

There are about 100 new coal fired power plants in the works for the US now. These are big 1000 megawatt size plants that EACH will generate 6 million TONS of CO2 per year. A big problem I think?


Gary

I'm not off the grid; I'm grid-tied. :)

While electricity is affordable now, we feared the future rates (when we are in retirement). It might not make the most econominal sense, but it felt right to us. (But then we're really not homesteaders; probably more like wannabes.)

When I look to the south I see plumes from two coal-fired, mercury-spewing power plants in New Mexico. They are building a third: I didn't want to be part of that.

Besides... I love seeing my meter go backwards! :)

Now you are just braggin'! :)

Some off-grid considerations:

An engineer friend calculated “payback period” for a solar home installation he considered building. It was thirty-seven (37) years. So – financial considerations may not be the greatest motive to go “off grid”.

We are “solar when necessary” – by having adequate capacity for reasonable comfort if not plugged in to AC. That is only basic – water pump, lights, recharge batteries, run computers. Cooking and refrigeration are propane (though we do have a solar oven too).

Being a little less than totally dependent upon “the system” appeals to us. We also like being able to comfortably inhabit areas that are not served by utilities (and have done so for many years).

That said, being able to plug into “shore power” (110 volt AC) is always pleasant.

Off grid doesn't mean having to do without, but it does give you an element of security in the event of grid failure.

While failure of the whole grid isn't a common occurrence, local outages can be common in some areas, so having your own power so that you don't have to worry about it has advantages. Also, you are not at the whims of the power company or oil companies to raise rates. And if you worry about natural disasters like earthquakes or avian flu, being without modern conveniences like power and running water is one less consequence to deal with. Also man-made disasters like social unrest or war. The shorter your supply lines the less likely you are to have a problem--if you have your own power plant, that supply line is pretty darn short!

I do think that with the proper technology choices it can also reduce your 'carbon footprint' and ecological impact. But consider if you go solar all the resources used to make your technology; its hard to say how many years of use to 'pay off' that 'debt'.

How long it takes to pay off a solar power system in money terms depends on where you live and the cost of energy in your area.

I guess. Talking about it prompted me to take a walk to the mailbox, just to see it spin.

Funny story, the day after it went on-line I was looking at it and I had no clue what direction it was spinning. I mean I could see it going but I didn't know if it was forward or backward. (Our previous meter was digital.) So I ran back to the house, put in a call to our installer, got on the internet and posted a question about how meters run to some frugal friends, and finally found a picture on the net of a meter that had a directional arrow on it. Lo and behold, it was going backwards!!! I now have the directions memorized but if I ever forget, the arrow in the picture is is the forward direction.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46...ity_meter_.jpg

We also lucked into a pretty good rebate program, not from our local utility (although they did give us $2000). The Denver electric company under state voter mandate must either get or support a certain amount of alternative electricity. They were unable to get enough from their customers so mid-summer they opened a program to all state residents. If you were grid-tied they offered a certain dollar amount per watt you could produce. Xcel Energy sent us a check for $10,021. And of course we'll be getting the tax incentive in 2007.

Even with rebates and all (and net metering) I must admit we will probably never recoup all of our costs on this system.

We are off grid because, when we moved here, the expense of having the grid come to us was way too expensive 10k+ and we didn't want it anyway. Now one of our neighbors payed 14+ to get it brought in and it is only about 300 yds away. But, if we connect, the poles will come right across my property and I don't want it. Besides, the power here (from the grid) is very undependable so why depend on it. We have 10 or so days a year when it would be right nice to have A/C. but a fan is sufficient.
And, the gasses given off by charging batteries are oxygen and hydrogen. :)

Here are a couple of the reasons I'd like to be off grid.
 

I would like to be off grid to skirt all of the franchise fees and other add ons that make a bill so high.

As an example I recently cut a voucher for a natural gas bill for my employer. The cost of gas was 61 cents while the total bill was $18.65. The meter dial hasn't budged all summer long even though a hot water heater is in use.

My energy charge at home on the bill I received today was $8.85. Add ons brought it to $21.43 total.

Rate increases will go into effect shortly.

For decades the city owned the trash trucks and used city employees to man them. Private firms also hauled as options to city hauling.

A couple of years ago the city sold out to one of the private companies and agreed to let the rates be raised then, and again. We have gone from $6+ to $8.50 currently. The gave a monopoly to the company and shut the other haulers out to residential service. I have opted to haul my own since I am only two miles from the landfill when I am at work. Kind of a pain, but we do a lot of things in life that are a pain. An extra $100 in my pocket each year for a little extra work.

At home I opt to clandestinely use LP gas rather than pay monthly add on fees to the gas company. Doing thusly I control when the gas is purchased rather than allowing someone else to purchase at will. I now use a room heater to heat my entire home rather than using forced air to heat my home and half of the outdoors from the warm air being pushed through any air leaks. While natural gas may be cheaper than LP if you figure the add ons, I now do winter heating with less money each year than 5 years ago on natural gas. Albeit with much more work filling bottles at my farm and transporting them and checking for leaks with every bottle hookup.

Liberals deregulated the power companies? Gee, I didn't know George Bush was a liberal.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0815-07.htm

Hi,

I noticed that some people listed not contributing to global warming as a reason to want to be off-grid (which I think is great).

If this is your main motivation, then consider this alternate approach to going off-grid:

- For Electricity: Do all the things to conserve electricity that you would do if you were going to go off-grid. The stuff that I have read indicates that people faced with paying $8 to $10 for each installed watt of PV power manage spectacular reductions in electricity use -- way, way beter than half.
But, don't actually put the PV system in -- this saves you the $10K to $30K that a PV system would set you back.

- Use part of the saved dollars to reduce your heating and cooling energy use by improving insulation, cutting infiltration, adding shading, adding a sunspace, adding solar water heating and solar space heating, .... These things all have good payback times -- as little as less than a year up to maybe 8 or 10 years -- far better than 20+ years for PV. And, since space heating and water heating are the bulk of most peoples energy use, you will be reducing your energy use and green house gas emissions more than if you put a PV system in -- not to mention saving quite a bit of money each year in the process.

The down side of this approach is that if you are after indepence from the electric utility, this does not do it. But, it does give you independence from rising energy bills (electric AND heating).

Just a thought :)

Gary

Ive given up trying to convince people who dont get it.

Its a whole process from the planning stage on up,from water heating to appropriate building for cooling/or heating if thats an issue,to a complete re-assessment of appliances that dont require massive amts. of power(relatively speaking) to function.

It can be done,and at a reasonable cost when building,but to retrofit a 'normal' house,and not make extensive re-evaluations of the complete,total housing system,aint gonna happen for a reasonable price.

To argue the point,forget it.If you dont understand you can ....

A-Not do it
OR
B-Educate yourself fully and understand it.

Cant be done here in the context of a thread,it entails years of study IMO.

BooBoo