Options for dealing with trespassers?

Its easy to get angry when we work so hard to pay for our land, and keep the taxes paid, then see some jerk wandering all over it, but I think yours is a good level headed plan

__________________
http://lownfamilymaplesyrup.com/ max@lownfamilymaplesyrup.com
Professional Tool. 1220 Woodmere Ave,Traverse City, MI. 49686. 231-941-8003. http://professionaltool.com/

Ted thats the point I do and Ill explain it to you but remeber I dont know about everything else there could be LOTS of other circumstancses that would be he same in that the dogs could do damage that you (or I ) cant concive.

Think of sheep as a bunch of exciteable sweet little old ladies a lot like your faverite aunt or grandma.(thats how a lot of shepards see them) Now remeber they are preganant,hopefully with quads think of them in thier 9th month put them all in wool coats good for -40degrees and stand them out in a hot humid pasture at 100 degrees and 99%humidity. Now have the scaryest moster from godzilla or somthing come running into the scene. How far do you think these little ol ladies will run before they drop dead from heat exhaustion or heart attack? I know this will seem silly to you but alot of sheepherders will see what I mean. Its very acurate

Ted, I'm not saying you aren't a nice guy. I don't know you personally other than what you post here. What I am saying is that no matter what your opinion or my opinion is regarding other peoples property, it doesn't count for beans when we come to that persons property line.

I have a siberian husky who used to be part of a (competitive) dog sled team. He is a digger and a climber and an escape artist. But we do keep him from escaping, running,etc. He has a fenced in area where the fence extends into the ground with heavy stones in front of it. It wasn't cheap. It is my responsibility to keep my dog(s) under control and it is my responsibility to accept the consequences if I don't keep my dog under control.

When a person intentionally lets their dog(s) run then there are certain things that go with that choice. To blame other people for the consequences of your choice simply doesn't make sense to me.

If a person blusters threatens or gets aggressive because I don't want them on my property (regardless of my reason) then I will deal with it. I don't go to other peoples property looking for trouble but I will certainly deal with trouble if it comes to me. It really is that simple.

Someone like Mike2379311 will call me names because I have strong feelings about random individuals deciding that they have more right to decide about the use of my property than I do. What he conveniently forgets is that they weren't invited (and in fact explicitly told through my "no trespassing" signs) to come on my property in the first place.

If you came up to me and asked in a polite way to cross my property to get your dogs I might say yes or I might say no. If I say no then the reasonable thing for you to do is go around my property - whether it is following a public road or asking someone else for permission to cross their land. When people say it is impossible,too difficult, whatever to ask permission they are really saying that their interest is more important than the interests of the person that owns the property.

It sure does amaze me how many people think they have a right to decide about other peoples property. Why do I have a feeling that they would sing a different tune if some random armed person decided to come in their house uninvited.

Mike

It depends on how large your property is, or at least the border between your property and the hunting land that the hunters claim they hunted on. If it is less than a 1/4 mile, I'd just put up a good field fence with gauge small enough to keep dogs out. If you find them on there, they started the hunt on the wrong side of the fence to begin with. Cameras are a good idea. Call the law on them - just make sure your own affairs are in order first - if you catch my drift. A lawman on your property will notice things like a still or a semi-auto rifle sitting in your truck.

even if you know them? every now and then, horses get loose here... sometimes cows. I know if I see the neighbors in my backyard carring a lead line, they are looking for a loose horse.... or a cow. it isnt rocket science and I dont require prior notice in triplicate. assuming you have reasonable neighbors....

I walk across my multiple neighbors properties all the time, and rarely do i SEE them, but when I do we wave and know, that no one is up to no good.
sometimes I'm picking berries... sometimes I'm taking a dog for a walk.. sometimes I'm looking for another neighbors loose stock.
they know I wouldnt be there to make problems, and I know they have better things to do than walk across my backyard for no real good reason.

not long ago, one neighbor had a huge rottenwieler who was pretty freindly... one afternoon it ripped another neighbors beagle to shreds in her front yard and she marched out and blew the dogs brains out. No one got angry. we all understood how it works; friendly dog, we take it back home or shoo it back in nthat direction. dog killing something we shoot it.
that happens rarely. we had a pack of feral dogs loose killing sheep and cats and ect ect, I saw more neighbors that summer than I ever did normally... everyone made an effort to see who owned what dog so the didnt make a mistake and shoot a domestic pet by accident, and in a few weeks we had shot all 5 of the wild pack.

somehwere... somehow.... bad neighbors got to be that way from poor community relationships.

I think I better stay here... the rest of the world sounds a bit screwy... not to mention ---- unfriendly.

that is untill the yuppies move to close who dont feel the need to talk or associate wirh the unwashed locals.

I agree that having a few big mean dogs of your own will solve the problem. My dogs know the fence lines and they do not allow anyone or anything to cross those lines. I haven't had a tresspasser since the dogs learned where the property lines are.

__________________
.
.

Mike in Ohio, I think I understand where you are coming from in all your posts, and the above summarizes how I feel about it. When a person owns property, it is THIER property and someone intentionally trespassing on property is pretty much the same to me as someone walking through my front door unannounced and uninvited.

In Virginia, the law allows hunters to retrieve thier dogs on posted land, as long as they are unarmed when they do it. I have to live with that. But they will certainly know they're on OUR land. They won't be threatened or treated ugly, but they may be greeted with rifles pointed at them if they surprise us. I would hope they'd remember and tell thier friends to watch thier dogs around THAT property because the people are crazy!

The thought of someone wandering on our land uninvited makes me feel violated. We have very friendly neighbors - and we've had many of them stop by from time to time to bring sausage from a slaughtered hog, or just to say hi. That's fine and we enjoy and appreciate it. But if those same neighbors were to start wandering on our property to pick berries, walk dogs, or hunt without asking if they could, I'd be ----ed. I wouldn't do that to them, and don't want it done to me.

We bought 65 acres for a reason (and it would have been 2000 if we could afford it). We want the right to escape to it and choose when we have interaction with people. It is our fortress - and whether you have 1/4 acre or 4000, you should be afforded that right.

Penny

__________________
Live Free!

Penny

Life is tough, but living doesn't have to be. Get back to basic living!

Back to Basic Living Website
Back to Basic Living Blog

Some neighbors we have given blanket permission to come on our property and others we expect to ask explicitly if they want to come on our property. Some we have told flat out no for various reasons (drinking and using a firearm would be one example) Total strangers we absolutely expect to stay off our posted property.

And that works for your neighbors and yourself. Based on your other posts you seem like a straight forward kind of person. I'm sure there are people in your area you wouldn't want on your land and there are others you don't mind. If you post your land then the burden is on other person to make sure you don't mind (unless they already have a relationship with you). The issue that Randy raised is about people coming on his land against his wishes.

And that makes sense. Now if the neighbor whose dog was killed said she didn't want any more of the neighbors rottweilers on her property because she didn't want to have a repeat with her new beagle fluffy, why would anyone get upset if she shot a rottweiler that came on her property? Should she have to go through a repeat performance just to accommodate the other neighbor? Is fluffy disposable and easily replaced so what the heck?

And what if that wild pack nominally belonged to someone who came up huffing and puffing about what they would do to you if you shot their dogs? Somehow CN I don't see you stepping back and accepting that.

And their neighbors should tolerate it if their bad behavior crosses the property line? I don't think so.

It's not about not talking or associating with the "unwashed locals". In fact, most of the issues (as far as I can tell) stem from the more recent arrivals. Most of the long time locals accept that there is a time for privacy and a time for socializing. They hello the house and chat a bit. Or they might leave a note that they stopped by.

The ones that tend to be more problematic are the ones who moved into the country, bought their little piece of it and have decided that their little slice entitles them to everyone elses. The one hunter I had real issues with wasn't a local and hadn't lived in the area for very long.

Don't ever confront someone with a gun if you can at all help it. If you can't be polite, you don't know what brand of nut you might be dealing with. Just last week one of my coworkers caught a trio of local hillbillies hunting on his land. Rather his nephew caught up with them first and he saw the older guy waving his rifle around screaming. He was caught at a disadvantage and was glad to beat a retreat with everyone still breathing. He said the guy kept massaging the trigger and breathing hard ect. Scared the crap out of him.
In 1977 I almost killed a nut job in a similar confrontation. Didn't know who he was or where he came from just that he came running up on my partner pointing a 12 gauge at him and he hadn't seen me farther back. I can still see that rifle dot on his right ear. He lowered the gun and we all backed off never knowing what it was all about. I think he was crazy by the way he was acting. I have drawn down on a couple other guys over the years on the job but it was never nearly as scary as squaring off with a 12 gauge from 40' away. Do yourself a big favor and leave it to the cops. Get their license plate or better still a picture of the car or them from a distance but leave the confrontation to the police. I have met a lot less nutty drug dealers than hill billies which is truly strange.

Fact is, people can get along or not get along. Manys the time while growing up on a farm that I'd see a figure on our property from a distance. Turned out it was so-and-so with a lost cow or lost dog or such. No problems there of course.

Several years ago sitting in a tree stand a nice buck went running along the fence line across the field with an obvious arrow sticking out of him. Half hour later here come a couple people following up. I approached, and they were nice young kids who didnt know who owned the property but they were following the deer. Knowing the terrain I knew where that deer laid down and we talked for an hour or so and smoked and let the deer bleed out, and after dark sent the kids back to get their truck and we hauled that deer out. Nice, respectful kids just doing what they thought was right under the circumstances.

I've also stuck a pistol in a man's face and told him to knock it the hell off. I've escorted people at gunpoint straight to the cruiser.

The start of this thread mentioned an armed person threatening a landowner. Good luck with that attitude with me. My land, my family, and you've got the cajones to threaten? Dead man walking.

If people are respectful and need to get their dog or need to track a hit deer or such, no right thinking person would give two hoots. Threatening a person and their property rights is not respectful.

One commenter mentioned that they had been "flipped off" and cussed by a man on an ATV who was ripping down their NT signs. ROUND THROUGH THE GAS TANK!!~ To hell with people like that.

Its all about getting along and everybody being reasonable. I'm reasonable, and I think it's reasonable to let a hunter trespass to get his dog, and to let a hunter trespass to get that deer over the fence, and to shoot a man down if he threatens me with a gun.

But maybe that's just me.....

yrs ago, we never tied or fenced our dogs... it was an alien idea. our dogs wandered and we didnt worry. that was back when there was just us, and maybe 2 other neighbors on the whole mountain. as the people moved in, we had to make some adjustments. fences... dog cable runs... not even so much because of neighbors but more from the heat from the county, who all of a sudden noticed, OMFG, people out there in the boonies leave their dogs run loose.
once the rottie was shot, the owners got a new one, and a pitt bull. they keep them contained from then on... it shocked them as much as flufys owner.

in contrast, switch to a yuppe scum bunch who moved iin a ways doen the road. during a thunderstorm my old auntie caled terrified, becuse a huge dog was clawing at her front door, she said it ripped thru her screendoor... so i walked down and indeed, this poor critter had broken 2 windows, ripped a door off its hinges... blood al over the place. nuts? mean? no the dog was terrifed of thunder. I know Ive seen gunshy dogs, no E=MC2 there. I took the shaking dog home, let him hide on my porch under a table and he went right to sleep. next day i took him back to the owners on the tags. they told me they got the dog at the pound and when it went crazy they "set it free" out the door... it was destroyin the bedroom. I explained to them, the dog needs a hidey hole, and that all it took to make him calm. they agreed and thanked me and well next thunder storm a terrifed dog found ME, and my porch. Realy nice big dog too. anyhow... I took fido back, they SCREAMED at me for harboring this dog, and screamed at me I should leave it alone so it will run away, they dont want it it frightens them... yes, they set it free a second time. SO I took the dog to a farmer I know who knew how to handle him, and he made an A1 farm dog. lots of places to hide, and I was told later of he was with cows, he wasnt afraid... go figure that one out. anyway... see what I mean? yuppie azzhole builds a cute country home, adopts a dog and then sets it free when they cant take its personal dog-problems... and yells at me for interering with nature by molly coddleing the dog the set loose. where did they think this dog was gonna go? Morons.

and more morons are coming and I know, and the neighbors know.... you cant really deal with morons, and its far easier to put up a fence... and live with it. yup... if i saw those moron in my yard I would ask them --- are they doing in my yard because they dont like me and I sure dont like them. that friction keeps us apart, fortunately.
I have been laboring under the impression all these neighbors know each other or live close by.... I didnt think strangers drive in and go hunt where they think "the wild backwoods are"... sorry bout that. Yes, we all here expect strangers to stay out, no questions asked. we dont let strangers hunt here on the hill, they are morons and careless.

my mistake.... you are talking about strangers. sorry.
it wouldnt be an issue if we discovered it was a pack of farmer billybobs dogs from the valley, who he doesnt keep track of. his dogs shouldnt be that far from their territory. and if it was someone who just trucked in a truckload of dogs to "run somewhere open and wild", and didnt ask around.... he may very well get his dogs shot IF they are caught killing stock. No one would shoot them if they just noticed them running a deer or something.... we all would be curious to where they came from, because its pretty odd to have a feral pack of dogs, that are all the same breed with orange collars. lol if billybob from over the hill was told "your dogs are far off your land, contain them or we might have to shoot them" he can huff and puff all he likes.... he is in violation of the law we can do as we please as landowners to stray dogs. personally if he huffed and puffed anything I could constrew as a personal threat of harm to me.... I have a cell phone... I have the local cops on speed dial... he would have some fancy exlaining to do about his idle threats. You cannot threaten people with harm, its a crime. take the law and shove it in their behind with a sideways twist when they get that brave. and do it quietly, it drives them insane.
I make good use of my tax money.... I call the JBT. lol.
it depends on the long term cost to you in aggravation and repercussions from morons. MOST ALL issues you have with a neighbor, the law somewhere has taken pains to outline who can do what. in this county... we can shoot any animal regardless of season or time of day, that aare actively attacking/chasing livestock. we all know this, and know if we let our neew rottenwieler loose to roam, it might get picked off by someone not knowing where it came from and mistaking it for a stray. [collars...tags... make them visible so we have a reason to ask "whos dog?" first] so really, there is very little that crosses a property line, here anyway, that one cant quietly address elsewhere and nip in the bud.
for example... my buddy has a large place, and a few yr ago a large storm knocked down a dozen or so huge timber quality trees. it was a few feet from his exsisitng fenceline. and he kept an eye out.. drooling over the potential timber he had to saw up, and a few trunks he was ready to sell to his amissh friends. well one day he came up the hill and the trees were gone... quad tracks and sawdust.

right past the line where the yuppie hordes live, were about 12 full cords of cut and stacked new wood.
he had a fit... oak and maple, 100+yr old trees... trunks that were almost perfect.... cordwood!! we took photos... 100s of em. he had the cops go ask the neighbor where he got the cordwood. "we boought it" and then the cops asked why the quad tracks and the stumps and the story changed and changed.... well, in the end my budddy didnt have to ever talk to the offending yuppy morons, they were fined for trespassing, theft, vandalism, and a whole slew of fun things. they were ordered to pay him compensation for the lost lumber, clean up their mess. and give the cordwood back....
it took time... 2 yrs almost. but no one in that yuppie tide crosses his fence now.
no.. you dont have to swallow bad neighbors crap, but now and then, its easier to put up a fence and watch your own dog a little better.... and sometimes, you cut them down with the a lawsuit.

a good thing about america is, we have so many laws on every darn thing.... its not hard to use them as rocks to fight back.

I see that now I took for granted the issue was people who always were there.... kinda.

the "new" neighbors are easier to slap around with litigation... you cant let them get away with things right off, and reading back it seems like the problem is..... someone has just endured the problem and hasnt actually done much to use the law to their advantage, now the problem is a deep set one.

I dunno now I am really confused...

listen... just go file charges... if they were on your land, armed and spoke above a hushed tone.... its tresspassing and assault. if the law says they can reteive their dogs, you let them, and take pics of them coming and going, and the dammage they cause doing it.
once they get served a few dozen times they will keep away.

dont wait 3 weeks to call 911... call then while they are yelling at you, holding a gun... in your yard.
I think that might be the problem.

tresspassing, rippig down signs... if you said you SEE them do it, and they yell at you and flip you off doing it.....
videotape is a wonderful legal rock. Use it!

oh you want to really get them where it hurts? I dunno how restraining orders work in your state but here... they are nifty.

go file for a protection order against your neighbor who threatened you.
the police will show up to serve the order at this ome, confiscate all his weapons, search his house for drugs.
then he has to wait till the hearing, where it may or may not be made a permement order.

this can take several weeks. in the meantime he is forbidden to have any contact with you, even via a third party, or to come within 500 yds of you or your home.

if he violates the order, he can be put in jail till the hearing comes around.

a friend of mines wife AND is GF got together, got PO at him and they BOTH filed orders on him, their reasons were from insignificant tthings that happened almost a yrs ago.... it doesnt mater, they got a temp order and they tossed his house and confiscated all his guns and weapons....
he will have to hire a lawyer... of he is smart...
he has to hop thru lots of hoops, and its a royal pita.

The neighbor really threatened you?
temp order of protection..... a wonderful legal rock to throw.

you do fear for your life now, walking in your back 40? I would if someone threated me, while tresspassing and holding a gun....

screw em.... hard. with a twist.

I think the problem is that we aren't always dealing with reasonable people (as seen in this very thread! lol). There is a fine line for some between using and abusing the laws and minding and skirting them.

On the issues of filing charges - don't you have to know who they are? If they don't have plates on their ATVs or nametags on their hats, how will you do that? Unless your local police come instantly from just a mile or so away...

I guess I don't understand why people aren't more concerned about their own liability - in most cases in the US, even if someone trespassed to get there, if they are hurt on your property or by your animal, YOU are liable. That's a good enough reason for me to tend to my pets and keep people OUT. It's really sad when land OWNERS have to take so many steps to protect what's their own and that others think they can abuse it. Responsible hunters will get that permission in advance as much as they can or they will hunt lands they are damned sure are public.

It's kinda strange to hear people say that the problems they've had were with the newbies coming from the city to the country. While we've had a few little issues with that scenario, most of the trouble we've had are from people that claim to have used our land for years without any complaints (not so, we talked to the last owners and the other neighbors and these folks were always trouble!). Or the prople that "always come here" to hunt or dump their trash. Well buddy, the town dump is only a couple of miles from here, you either missed the turn or didn't drive far enough, depending on the direction from which you came! If you think it's ok to dump crap on vacant land, why not do it on your OWN? Hmmmm.

FWIW I talked to the Lieutenant in charge of the local game wardens today. He told me point blank that hunters have absolutely NO right to trespass on anothers property espeacially if it is Posted. For any reason. He actually apologized for the poor behavior of his "constituents" - ie hunters who act in such a manner, and says he unfortunately hears similar stories all the time. He went on to say that I should go before a local magistrate and swear out a warrant for this guys arrest for threatening me with bodily harm and contact the sheriffs department. I have yet to decide what exact course of action I will take, but I will no longer be a victim of a lawbreaker on my own property.

None of these problems existed before people started moving from the cities to the country. There is a fair number here (HT) who have done so, and for the most part instead of "getting away" from the city they bring it with them.

tinknal - I totally disagree! Land use wars have waged for centuries with neighbors that didn't come from the city! There's a little place called "The Middle East" that might interest you.

As I said in my last post, we have problems with locals all the time. They think we've moved into their area now (even if they never lived over here). This property sat vacant with an unfinished house for years and now they are just ----ed that they can't do the stuff my neighbors say was going on here before we moved in. Drug deals and drops in the brush, shots fired at horsebackriders, fields torn up, hay stolen, etc. And no, we're not new to the area, just fairly new to these lots.

Thinknal I think you summed it up best, I would like to apologise mike in ohio for my last post I did get a little short with you. I live in what was once a rual area that is being taken over by the city folkes especialy since the hurricane. There is so many people moving a 15 miles or so inland from the coast and a large number from Chalmete, and New Orleans LA. There have been 17 new houses built within 3 miles of my home. Each time more and more of the lands we hunt on falls to development. It can be quite fustrating to rural born folks. I grew up being able to hunt where ever you wanted,no one really cared.

ive spoken to my family lawyer about this, concerned about my homeowners ins. I was told if the property is POSTED... and there is some spacing req. for the signs its like every 35 or so feet of fence or line.... as long as its posted, the landowner is not liable for any injury while they are trespassing... at least here in PA.
or so the attorney sez... I half believe him until I see it in writing.

randy it is good to read, you now know how to get r done. good for you.

and some of the old locals can and do get pretty nasty, or dont understand new owners mean they need new handshake deals.

they can be lawyered to death too... lol

Maybe I should have used the qualifier "here". You seem to belong to the group I mentioned.

Fwiw-

I have owned my land for 8 years with no significant problems like this until lastyear. Then the surrounding 600+ acres were sold to a developer who had it rexzoned into tiny little lots- over 1200 homes will be next door to me some day- and now the developer has had giant brush hogs come in and clear cut darn near everything in sight down and is using the land for his own private hunting club. He is from out of town. And the city. Not that it matters to me. I grew up in the country hunting, working on a farm and later moved to the city for a time while going to schoool and in the service. Now I am back on the land. This time the land is MINE and I will protect it and my family. Another posted about rare and endangered plants on here place. I have some of them also and it happens to be the favorite place of this bunch to run their dogs and do their 4 wheeling.

From the country or the city- rude, obnoxious, and lawbreaking people come from every walk in life.