mountain lions!!!

No... ....they don't keep moose out, LOL. But moose are thick headed big galumphs that bowl anything over that's in their way whether it hurts them or not! When I first moved here, we got some moose meat. It was from a moose that had charged a train (guess who won?!).

Cats are more cautious, nervous critters with a brain that remembers pain and avoids it. I honestly did read that somewhere about electric fence...I will look for the source.

I had a good friend who was nearly pounced by a cat that had preyed on their goats for years. He just happened to have a loaded gun with him, and the cat is now mounted in the local pawn shop. But I still think that simply killing any animal that might present a threat to ourselves, our gardens and livestock is an irrational, short sighted way of doing things.

I have read that if mountain lions are a problem, then only the larger LGD's should be used (Anatolians), and that they should be used in grouips of 3. Because on lion may overpower one LGD.........supposedly 2 of the LGd's will go after the lion, and the 3d sill stay with the animals to be protected.

I wonder if any of you have seen the pictures and read the story about the Mule killing a cougar?

Here is the link:

Mule Kills Mountain Lion

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The human spirit needs places where nature has not been rearranged by the hand of man.

It's easy to say that something is BS if it hasn't happened to you. Having lost animals to a cougar, listened to the attack and screaming in the pitch dark when there was no chance of shooting the attacker, I can tell you - it isn't BS.

And yeah, the cougar wasn't stopped by a properly charged and working 4 strand electric fence that runs along the inside of 60" livestock fencing.

http://users.frii.com/mytymyk/lions/intro.htm

I could give you multiple links. I have 2 large notebooks full of information on big cats and their predatory nature. But I will let you start with this one.

My sister is the one some of the other Arkansas folks are talking about, and I found her body. That is as close to a link as I can get you. Old Vet who has been critisized on this site was the one who found the first cat tracks the night of the attack. We have plaster casts of the tracks measuring over 5 inches long. We had the Curator of the Memphis Zoo verify they were cougar tracks, we had a world renouned big cat expert examine the autopsy reports and verify it was a big cat. I could go on and on, but I won't.

The Arkansas game and fish idiots persistantly stated there were no big cats in Arkansas, but finally enough proof and public pressure made them change their statements. Now they admit there are no "native" cougars, but there were breeding populations of cougars who are offspring of captive cougars, or ones who wandered in from other states. (Guess cougars don't read state line marking signs).

In any case, those who have never dealt with a REAL cougar and only are familiar with the Disney version, have no idea what they are talking about.
They ARE at the top of the food chain. An electric fence would be no deterrant unless it were 16 feet tall. Cougars have an amazing ability to hunt.

I think one reason there are fewer attacks in Idaho, and other western states with large populations of the lions, is a matter of population density. While this area of Arkansas is still fairly rural, it is not nearly as open as the west. There are still a lot of people here, and it is growing. Maybe part of it is because of the heavy, dense woods and caves...lots of places for the cats to hide. I don't know. I do know that everyone in this area has seen cougars.

I had seen a big cat a year or so before my sister was killed, but bought into the "they won't bother you if you don't bother them BS". My neighbor saw the cat the day after the attack and said it was at least 6 feet long excluding the tail. The meter reader said it was as long as his truck bed. The curator of the zoo estimated it's weight as approx. 200#.

As far as guard dogs, mine did the best they could, and we believe they chased the cougar away, leaving most of my sisters body intact. Our back door was literally knocked off of the hinges and left wide open. The dogs, who had always been so brave, would no longer go outside without the flood lights on, slept in the closet or under our beds and still have nightmares.

Sorry to go on and on, but as you can see, I do have a link to this story and it is very close to my heart.

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Take your time, or someone else will.

Sorry, DixieLee, didn't mean to dreged up memories, but it's very hard for me to let uninformed statements and posturing pass without comment when I know there is more to the facts than what was posted. I was trying to nicely get LIsa to not be so critical of where we chose to live and some of the situations we end up facing even when we ARE aware of the surrounding environment and wildlife.

Gee, I didn't think I was posturing and I wasn;t being critical of where you live. Did you not get the "Shoot it if it is a nuisance or kills people" point I made? I am critical of people who live in the wilderness and think it's okay to blast any predator they see on the assumption that they are all man-eaters.
Good grief. I'm curious as to why you think it's okay for Old Vet to call people who aren't afraid of predators, "not so bright".

Why would a state deny the presence of cougars? That is just too weird and irresponsible. Here in Oregon we know they're here, it's a big story on the news if one is sighted, and they(the news) review proper people behavior, and track one that's been in the suburbs till they find it. Brochures about cougars and how to coexist with them are handed out by fish and game at fairs, outdoor stores, etc.

I live in a "bushy" area of the state, the cougs are here(seen one, found tracks), and luckily (?!) we are on the fringe of true uninhabited cougar habitat, so they have room to roam naturally, plenty of healthy natural prey and rarely take livestock. So what people need to be aware of is how much natural prey is available in their area, and how much "natural" habitat there is--I think the less natural for the cougar the more human contact(people attacks or livestock killing)there'll be.

I've heard a rumor that the state will try a measure to allow dogs to hunt cougars again, people are finding out that was a bad idea to stop that.

On the other side of the story, many years ago a neighbor of mine had a momma cougar raise several litters in a den at the end of her driveway(a few 100 feet from the house). SHe always had a gun ready, but let things be. The cougar had more than enough wildlife to eat, and moved out when my neighbor got more neighbors. I don't mean to offend anyone by this example, but the "answer" is somewhere in the middle. I do think captive cougars are an abomination(love that word), as well as any captive wild animal(I feel sorry for the ones in zoos too!!!!!!!!!!!)--and that whole thing needs to be outlawed right away(personal pets).

Goatlady, no problem. I was trying to stay off this thread until someone asked for "proof".


Lisa, Old Vet was at our house the night of the attack on my sister. He saw what we went through, and is not nieve about predators. I think anyone who is NOT afraid of predators is "not so bright", and they clearly don't understand how serious the threat can be. Anyone who has come close to predators, be it cougars, grizzly bears, poisonous snakes, or bad guys with evil intent etc. should have a healthy respect for the possible dangers. That does not mean we are not aware of our surroundings. On the contrary, we are even more aware. It does not mean we do not enjoy living in in the woods. I don't think anyone here has advocated the wholesale slaughter of predators. I for one, feel more comfortable with the 4 legged predators than the 2 legged ones.

Our ancestors were afraid of predators, and that is why we are here. If they had not been afraid of predators, they would have been dinner. I think Old Vet was probably referring to the ones who believe in only the Disney version of the animal kingdom, and not the realistic version. We have been thru hell and back with this situation, so try not to judge us too harshly unless you have walked in our shoes.

There are two types of animals out there....predator and prey, and we have to decide which one we want to be.

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Take your time, or someone else will.

Big HUG sent your way Dixielee. I know it's hard to talk about.

When this happened it set us all back on our heels. It really changed the way we all approached the country life. The more we found out about sightings around the state the more unsettling it was to hear the F&G deny their existence. Personally I think it has a lot to do with a possible effect on tourism. I envy those states that openly accept the existence of these preditors and educate the population.

The sad thing is that DL's sister was killed in her yard, with her dogs there and the cat is still running loose...it's only a matter of time before someone else is attacked. As I said before people make easy prey and as the cat population increases I'm certain there will be other attacks. Any cat that is comfortable coming close enough to humans and prey on their livestock is a threat IMO. It takes a deer a week to feed a cat and when they find an easy alternative food source it's likely they'll be back for more.

Lisa, I was mostly "objecting" to your posting which stated..."It's plain stupid to move out where there are predators and then whine about them." Nobody is whining about this, just stating facts and personal experiences. As I said, most have been here a loooog time, definitely NOT newbies to very rural living situations, but the times have changed as have the animal's behavior, and we would be very foolish, not whiney, not be be aware of those changes.

I do understand where you folks are coming from. In Lisa's defense, though: we live in an area that is inundated with new arrivals who move here because it's "beautiful" and then want to shoot or kill or bulldoze most of what they see. If they see a coyote, it's a threat- bang! Same for any rodents at all, weasels, insects, bats, skunks, owls, hawks, etc etc.... I have no idea why they move here, but we do get burned out on them.

See Old Vets post later.

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"Have faith and be of good cheer." God, June 23, 2000

Laugh loud, laugh often

Well I posted this earlier under Mrs Vets name.

You can take my advise or not. If you kill the preators that are atacking livestock around where you live you will save livestock and possible a human. If you don't then you will have what you brought on yourself. I live way out in the country and are not snivinling about predators. I live with them and kill the ones that are becoming a necuance. What do you do call 911 and wait for someone else to do it for you?

Thanks Dixie Lee for taking about this. I hope that no one ever has to go through what you did in this again.

I moved to my homestead over 25 years ago. Never had a problem with cougars, or raccoons, or any other predators. Then the state passed a law that disallowed the hunting of predatory animals with hounds. Combine that with increasing number of hunters from urban areas and the predators start running out of room and game to eat. Sounds great, right? Add logging, and the animals are being pushed into areas that are, and have been, populated for a long time. I was here first, the cougars had plenty of area, and game, and now they're eating my horses because they're fat, sassy, and overpopulated. There are more cougars now than when there were no people living around here - explain that. Eastern Oregon is on year 5 of zero elk population growth - over 50% of a calves are being killed by cougars.

Don't talk to me about "why did you move here" - I lived peacefully with the cougars for 2 decades, and now it's stupid laws and overwhelming greed (logging) that is causing me problems - I am not the problem.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister, (belated). It must be especially infuriating to know the truth & have a cover up, topped off with your moarning & sorrow. I can't even imagine what you must have gone through. ((hugs)). It must be equally hard to speak of the tragedy and may be beneficial to others, so thank you.

I visited the website & was reading for quite a while. I didn't realize they were so common. We have a few bears but have not heard of any mountain lions(yet) in our area. Makes me wonder.

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Getting back to the original post, I still beleive lgd's would be a good deterant/protection. Plural. Enough to equalize the threat-whatever it is. As was stated locking up animals is not always an option. IMO they are better than nothing, and they are bred specifically to protect their charges (be it livestock or people). I've seen a video online of of 3 Pyrs being used to run bear(s) out of an area (overseas). I don't recall the link but it was interesting to see the teamwork involved. The link may have been on lgd.org. Not sure. Has anyone seen that video or have the link?
HF

I live on the edge of a VERY rural town (7 small blocks in one direction) Near Enid OKla

3 years ago I was swimming in our backyard pool and less than a block away I saw a huge Mountain Lion....my German Shep and Vizla went to barking and it got startled and ran away.....I was very glad that it did....the time was between 4-6pm....

the night before I had heard what sounded like young teenagers trying to imitate cattle....someone had some cattle in the field 2-3 blocks-worth from our backyard

Rachel

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If at first you dont succeed.....click undo

Wow.... The experiences people are describing here are so diverse. It's a real eye-opener! We see cougars quite often when driving along the road but no one around here has had trouble with them. A rancher lost some calves a few years ago (He said it heaved a calf up over it's shoulder and ran with it. Thats how big it was) Still, all in all, they seem to be pretty shy here. I know there's lots for them to eat, (deer, wild boar, etc.) our topography is very steep and rugged, and we have a small number of people living here. Who knows what the future holds though.

Dixie I am so sorry to learn about your sister. Let me say that any animal that can be dangerous does not belong close to ones home. When they come around they soon become used to people and then the problems begin. We keep a gun close and loaded so if needed we can pick it up on the way out. We have goats in a fenc that connects to our house and one night my wife turned the lights on and looked out just to look and there was a cyote walking around the fence not 30 feet from the house. To me that is to close but he left before wife got back to the gun and back to the door. Well the next afternoon it came down an old logging road that goes up the mountain behind our house and he was tracking something. Needless I took one step out the door and he stood and looked at me like how dare you. Well that was his last look as the 44 mag took him out. So if I can shoot them from my door they are dead critters. Just my feelings. Tamsam

While I agree that wholesale extermination of predators is unwise, it is just as unwise to allow predatory wild animals to become accustomed to humans and daily human activity. I grant that many species are very adaptable creatures, but that adaptability can become a danger in areas of higher human population density.

My philosophy is that a predator can exist wherever it wants, but if it comes within my limited inhabited territory where my livestock have their housing, then it has become a threat that needs to be dealt with. I don't want the entire 45 acres free of predators, but the fraction of an acre that is cleared out for the homestead and livestock pens and coops, my protected territory, that is my small "no predators allowed" zone.

Additionally, there are other people in my area with small flocks of poultry as hobbies who are also impacted by the same problem predators that may affect me.

Ideally, livestock guardian dogs would work 100% of the time in 100% of the situations. However, they may not. Some people may not be able to afford them or may not be able to easily find them in their local area or surrounding region. Some may not be able to use an electric fence due to terrain or vegetation or financial issues.

In my particular case it is better to terminate the threats on sight as they appear than allow them to run around and have additional opportunities to cause problems. For nonpredatory wildlife, I live trap and relocate it when possible when it is a problem for my small territory as it is more of a bother than a true threat to livestock.

What predatory animals I have terminated this year were sick or unhealthy 75 percent of the time, indicators that the populations were exceeding the local carrying capacity. The nonpredatory animals have also shown the same signs and I'll be culling the local deer numbers for venison to help with that, though the squirrel and chipmunk populations are larger than years past, they still seem to find enough to eat though I may thin some out that are getting a little too close for comfort to avoid possible disease vectors.

There is a balance somewhere between total acceptance without question and total extermination without question.

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I would challenge anyone here to think of a question upon which we once had a scientific answer, however inadequate, but for which now the best answer is a religious one. – Sam Harris