What do you think the future looks like?

Four Deuce,sent you a PM,its a bit OT for this thread.

BooBoo

Most financial advisors I have listened to have stated that our middle class will all but disolve in the next 50 years. Our middle class in based manufacturing, one way or another, and as someone who works in that enviroment I see it happening now every day and I do believe its only a matter of time before we lose most of the "down and dirty" type production facilities and only retain the more technical/difficult manufacturing processes. When our job market is flooded with those folks who were employed in these facilities then the wages of the middle class laborers will decrease, it is all about the laws of supply and demand. Which brings me the question as to what to reccomend to my 12 year old son, college or no, Is the cost of this formal education going to be offset by a much larger salary in his generation, or will he be like some I work with that are still paying college loans at 35 years of age. I will help all I can but to say he will come out of school without a fairly large chuck of debt is unrealistic.

There is an article on the internet written by a young man living in Argentina at the time of their economic collapse. He touches a bit on the use of gold and what type they used for "exchange" there.

http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/arg.html

This article might clarify a little bit what a real life use of gold might be be. I also couldn't wrap my mind around its use until I read this. It also made me rethink that type of gold I would buy (haven't done it yet!).

Below is from the link above
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GOLD!!

Someone hit me in the head please because I messed up about the gold issue. Everyone wants to buy gold! “I buy gold. Pay cash” signs are everywhere, even on TV! I can’t believe I’m that silly! I just didn’t relate it to what I read here because they deal with junk gold, like jewelry, either stolen or sold because they needed the money, not the gold coins that you guys talk about. No one pays for the true value of the stuff, so big WARNING! Sign on people that are buying gold coins. Since it is impossible to determine the true mineral percentage of gold, small shops and dealers will pay for it as regular jewelry gold. What I would do if I were you: Besides gold coins, buy a lot of small gold rings and other jewelry. They should be less expensive than gold coins, and if the SHTF bad, you’ll not be loosing money, selling premium quality gold coins for the price of junk gold. If I could travel back in time, I’d buy a small bag worth of gold rings. Small time thieves will snatch gold chains right out of your neck and sell them at these small dealers found everywhere. This is VERY common at train stations, subways and other crowded areas.

So, my advice, if you are preparing for a small economical crisis, gold coins make sense. You will keep the value of the stuff and be able to sell it for its actual cost to gold dealers or maybe other survivalists that know the true value of the item. In my case, gold coins would have been an excellent investment, saving me from loosing money when the local economy crashed. Even though things are bad, I can go to a bank down town and get paid for what a gold coin is truly worth, same goes for pure silver. But where I live, in my local are small time dealers will only pay you the value of junk gold, no matter what kind of gold you have. So, I’d have to say that if TSHTF bad, gold jewelry is a better trade item than gold coins. Forgive me for not talking about this before, but I didn’t realize this until today, when I visited my local market warehouse and saw a “Buy Gold” sign.
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Also consider silver ounce coin is 12 bucks,a gold ounce 600+.

Junk silver,90% silver US coins,established value and well known content in this country.Recieves high praise as an economic collapse coin.Also no premium to speak of,you are buying silver content and nothing else.

Something he also doesnt mention,Krugerrands have almost zero premium and are well recognized.

That would make metal investing a little different here than in Argentina.

I definitely would prefer coin or bars over jewelry.Most coins or bars list actual metal content,a good thing.Those that dont will list a price on them,that price is known to represent x amount of metal.

No guesswork,value is stated.
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Junk silver
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Junk silver is an informal term used in the United States for any silver coin which is in only fair condition and has no collectable value above the value of the silver it contains. Such coins are popular amongst those seeking to invest in silver, particularly in small amounts. The word "junk" refers only to the value of the coins as a numismatic collectable and not to the actual condition of the coins; junk silver is not necessarily scrap silver.

The most commonly collected junk silver pieces are U.S. dimes, quarters, and half dollars, minted in or before 1964 and theoretically extending back to the Barber period. These coins had a 90% silver composition ("coin silver"), and when minted contained 0.7234 troy ounces of silver per dollar of face value. (Learn that,BooBoo)Less common as junk silver are half dollars from 1965-1970, which contained 40% silver. Peace Dollars and late Morgan Dollars in especially poor condition may also be collected for their silver value, but are also less common. Junk silver can still be found in casinos.

Junk silver coins may be a desirable method of investing in silver for several reasons:

Low premiums
Junk silver can often be purchased for little or no premium over the spot price of silver, particularly during periods of economic stability.
Legal tender
Junk U.S. coins remain legal tender, and will always be worth at least their face value, regardless of the price of silver.
Recognition
Though not as common as they once were, junk silver coins are still somewhat well-known, and may be less likely to have their value disputed than silver bars or rounds.
Divisibility
Junk silver coins can be easily spent or traded in small amounts; as of June 2006, the silver in a silver dime was worth less than US$0.75. In contrast, silver bullion coins and bars are rarely smaller than one ounce, while gold and other precious metals are highly valued in even minuscule amounts.

For some of these reasons, junk silver is popular among survivalists. In the event of a crisis or catastrophe during which traditional currency collapses, it is speculated that silver coins could provide a viable alternative, temporarily or indefinitely.

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I like junk silver(Jeez,just holding it makes you 'feel' what America was once,compared to now).Personally,I really like Mercury dimes for some reason.

Even in metals,consider diversification of different kinds for different goals and degree of disaster.....

Junk silver,small purchases

Silver coins-wealth protection and purchases

Gold-LARGE wealth preservation,easily hidden and easy to carry a large amount of value if you have to bug out.

BooBoo

I really don't understand anyone's complaints here. I don't have many bills at all. Why? I don't go into debt. I am not rich, but I sure can save and work. We live by the "FICO Score". You can do anything. You just have to want to. I see very few people who want to do something, just "get by". There are many inspiring people out there with many good methods... My favorite, "Act Your Wage"....

Thanks for the info on gold. I will take the time to do some research. Although, it will just be for the information, as I doubt I will have cash to buy any. We will be too busy trying to buy a little more land, and all the other things necessary.

Someone said, about oil, if they know how much there isn't, they should know how much there is - and where. I think they do - to a great extent.

Just in my uneducated mind, it makes no difference to the oil companies if we import oil or use our own. So many of our oil companies are foreign owned as it is. What difference does it make to them if it is imported or domestic oil. So what is the incentive for them to use American oil? Maybe I am being too simplistic.

From what I have heard from those in the oil business, they are finding more and more oil. Also, there is no way I am going to believe that the oil corporations would put more oil on line and bring the price down. Why would they? They can sell 1 gallon of oil for what 3 were selling for not long ago. I think I see an incentive to say there isn't enough oil. I believe there is a lot of oil they know is there and just aren't touching it yet - to keep the price up.

Now I would like to see us wean ourselves from oil -= for a lot of reasons.
First off, so we would not be at the mercy of any despot, politician, and greedy corporation.

Secondly, you don't have to accept global warming to know that drilling, transporting, refining and burning oil is not doing us any good - enviroment wise. We need to be cutting back and soon.

So why are there no corporations working to make solar energy available to individuals at a price they can afford?

Because the same folks that own Big Oil also own the central banks, the media, and a good portion of the government.

Once you start looking outside of the box, at history, and at world politics at large, you will find that this is true.

I don't know for sure who the "top" is. But almost every major event, group and policitcal person in last 500 years or so has had a connection of somesort to another person, group, or event that you wouldn't think to associate them with. It is one big spiderweb.

I personally think that the primary PTB are the Rothchilds along with their associates (Rockerfellers, Rhodes, etc). Look at the members of the Council of Foreign Relations and the british money power for a whos who.

Other theories include a "Zionist" plot, masons, etc--all theories I don't subscribe to other than these are good examples of disinformation.

Although I do not rule out a Illuminati like group--if you ever see the Bohemian grove documentary (google it) you will see why.

I see only medical jobs and service jobs in the future as our good jobs have gone overseas. Our country now owes so much that we will never get out of debt. The rich will have money and the foreign people will have our jobs but we ( regular american family ) will NOT have the money to buy their goods .. so we will all loose !

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3 LaMancha does and boertrekfarm.com
[COLOR=Red]GOT MILK ?[COLOR=Red]

At one point in time, I was an outdoorsey fiscally conservative ditto head who bought the republican mantra hook, line, and sinker. I laughed at the "tin foil" crowd. The only "conspiracy theory" that I gave any credance to was Kennedy assination. I still think 75% of conspiracy theories are hog wash. However the remaining 25% have a great deal of validity.

I started out here, at homesteading today. My parents were a little into the homesteading thing prior to 2000 (and still are to some extent). I got more interested in it simply as lifestyle choice. I was disillusioned with the corporate rat race lifestyle and the cheaply made, consumption driven lifestyle. I wanted to live a "purposeful life."

I was deflected over to the Goldismoney forum and have since educated myself; there are some crazy VERIFIABLE things going on or have gone on in this world.

Now I understand why I never was able to save much; zeros and ones and paper never really made since as a form of wealth. I would always rather have things rather than "money." Saving money made sense only in theory. I soon understood why this was and now have a significant nest egg built up in real money.

I don't know; I really hope I'm full of it and the economy will keep plugging along, we won't turn into a fascist state, the middle class will continue to exist, and everyone can keep their 3000 square foot house, good job, 3 weeks a year vacation, and 1.5 kids. But I'm not betting on it--I would rather be safe than sorry.

Land is a good thing; never can have too much (if property tax is low). Since before bliblical times 5 things have historically held wealth and safety. Land, water, gold, silver, and livestock. Pluses and minuses (my opinion) are given for each below.

Land--They can now tax you off it with severe property tax increases or simply seize through eminent domain. However, you can still grow your own food if you are able to retain it. Gives you a place to build shelter.

Water--Regulated; lots of places you must be hooked up to government/corporate water systems and/or they control the water rights for any rain or wells. Look for the water rights issues to become more intrusive in the future. Can be had for free if still in an unregulated area or you are good a concealing cisterns and wells on land that you may own (for the time being).

Silver--good for currency collapse to buy smaller items; however, bulky in any quantity thus making in harder to transport or hide. TPTB are afraid to let the price reflect the true scarcity--threatens their fiat currency and the knowledge that their fiat is super inflating. Historically Money.

Livestock-NAIS makes every animal chipable and traceable. The food source can be controlled. Plus there is always the chance of death due ordinary disease. Cattle, horses, sheep, and goats have historically been used a Money in various cultures for large ticket purchases (land, wives, etc).

Gold--Highly valuable is small forms. Can transport enormous amounts of wealth on the body. Easy to hide. Historically subject to seizure (U.S. 1933). Great demand by Asian and Middle Eastern banks and people. TPTB are deathly afraid of it due to the same reason given for Silver (inflation of fiat). Still used to settle transactions between federal reserve banks and national central banks to some extent. Historically Money.

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Here is another link from a guy from argentina--I belive he posts at Frugal Squirrel

http://www.buildanark.net/survival_s...ferfal1_1.html

I will do some research on gold.

Silverback, I do understand the plus and minuses of property, etc.

There was a time in Texas that you kinda did what you were big enough to do unless you were hurting someone else. That has changed dramatically in the last 40 years. It began before that - but it sorta came out in the open then.

Of course, there are still those that don't see it. There is an entire generation, maybe more, that was raised with these restrictions and they dont' see it as a danger to their freedom. If you have been hooked up to city water all your life, you don't see any danger in the government not allowing someone in the country to have a well, dig a pond, or catch rain water. In fact, they probably see it as a good thing - 'for all our good'.

The same goes with food. I am sure you would be hard pressed to explain to 75% of the American people the danger in chipping all livestock. Their eyes glaze over when you even mention that it might not be in our best interest. After all, they, and possibly, their parents have lived quite well with the government in charge of their lives - so why worry.

Anything you have can be taken from you by the government. That goes for food, land, whatever - gold.

If we have something like the depression and the government institutes measures similar to what they did then, gold could be declared illegal tender and it would have to be used in a black market scenario.

The closing of banks during the depression, is something I never really understood. I do know that some of them were solvent, but the government closed them to keep that money out of circulation.

Insurance companies were forbidden to give people the cash value in their insurance policies. The government felt it had to have complete control over the amount of money and goods so they kept money out of circulation.

The government bought up livestock (cattle) and slaughtered and buried them to keep the price of beef up - while people were starving.

While I wasn't around during WWI, I have heard there were laws against hoarding food, etc.

So I do know the potential problems and we are looking for land with as little restrictions as possible - not that they couldn't change that with a stroke of the pen.

Gold, some research is needed and I will read the links everyone has given.

My thinking is that things you can eat, keep warm, and medicate yourself are worth more than gold. In a bad situation, I would never sell food, etc., for gold. My scenario for the future may be a little more dire than most.

As to conspiracies - boy that's a whole 'nuther can of worms. I do not believe these things happen by chance.

As I understand it, Trixie (and my understanding is hazy at best so folks please feel free to jump in and correct me) corporations ARE working to make solar energy available at an affordable price. Shell and BP are two big players in the solar panel business, as is Kyocera. Many electric companies allow "net metering" where an individual can buy electricity when they need more energy than their solar system produces, and when they're producing more energy than they can use the electric company will buy the excess from them.

The problem with "affordable" solar is that the batteries, panels, cables, inverters, etc. all require fuel to build, assemble, transport, etc. As the price of fossil fuels goes up, so do some of the costs of creating solar solutions.

Technology typically decreases in production expense and cost to the consumer, and I'm sure solar will, too. The trick is getting enough solar on line to be able to produce the next generation of cheaper solar. Right now solar production is dependent on petroleum energy.

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Our homestead-in-the-making: Palazzo Rospo
Eating the dream

I have talked to my 19 YO son concerning this. He is in college, but he is currently buying land and his plans are to build a house without a mortgage as we did using his paychecks. He drives an old beater car and has no debt. I am encouraging him not to make any. As I can't really predict the future, I want him to be prepared for any possibility. He manages our stored foods right now, and helps with the farm we are in the process of starting. He is buying land that is across the street. My other three adult children all have land there, even though they do not live there at the moment since they are either in the miltitary or married to military. I agree with you that it is important to actually talk to and help the next generation understand what they need to do. It is equally important to get them to understand without making them feel there is no future for them.

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Christanie Farm...living life as it was intended

If there is some world crisis or the US economy tanks, gold or silver will do you no good. Food and water will be what everyone barters for.

Lets hope we never have to find which survival strategy is better gold vs. food, water, land, etc. I can only afford one so I am working on getting a self-sustaining homestead.

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“When I think of what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think, there are no little things.” -Bruce Barton

Sounds like a real smart group of children you raised. You should be proud of the great job you did raising them.

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“When I think of what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think, there are no little things.” -Bruce Barton

EXCELLENT comment!
Our kids know our assessment and our plans, and they know to come here if things get bad. They think we wear tinfoil hats, but once in a while they see/hear/read something on the news and I think they're glad to have an escape plan. Just in case. Not that they really believe this stuff. But not that they don't.

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Our homestead-in-the-making: Palazzo Rospo
Eating the dream

They really are...I didn't always think they would turn out so good ( 4 little ones driving me crazy all at once )...but you just keep plugging at it everyday and then one day you sit and listen to them and are amazed at how many things you taught them are part of their everyday life.

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Christanie Farm...living life as it was intended

Somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. If you read the links posted about the IMF raping Argentina, you will see that they did use Gold somewhat as a medium of exchange. The same holds true for pre Hitler Germany. These are both hyperinflation scenerios. I don't know about a deflationary scenerio alhough Gold and Silver should at least hold their purchasing power in absolute terms.

However, in a complete SHTF scenerio with complete collapse Gold would probably be close to worthless initially, However 20-30 years later, with civilization rebuilding it probably would again have value.

IMHO