What do you think the future looks like?

Living in Australia for a short time was a real eye opener for me in how many around the world live compared to us in this country. Some examples:

Grocery store had no "paper or plastic". Everyone brought their own cloth grocery carrying bags. Shelves were not stocked with rows of convenience foods. Canned veggies and fruits were in glass canning jars that were recycled. Meat was selected and wrapped in paper that was recycled and no styrofoam. If you wanted a cake and didn't want to bake it from scratch, you went to the baker.

Natural fibers. Australia requires all fabrics to be a natural fiber (linen, silk, cotton, wool or some combo of) and clothing is recycled into upholstery fabric and carpets.

Tiny, tiny houses. Average starter home is 400 sq ft.

Public transportation. You can get anywhere without a car there except maybe in the Outback. How the US will handle this problem is yet to be figured out. We built this country on cheap oil. Continuing with expensive oil will be a real financial burden.

People there have a mentality of buying quality and keeping it for life and handing it down. WE have a mentality of buying cheap and throwing it away when it breaks or we are tired of it.

TV is not on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Programs are not distasteful either.

All schools require uniforms.

At some point, people in the US are going to have to reduce their consumption and waste. If you read the goals of the United Nations, it is that all member countries will be equal in quality of life. That means that the rich nations will become poorer so the poor nations can become richer.

The perception of us in Australia is that we are a nation of "peddlers" and "wasteful brats".

The transition will be painful.

oops.

What is going on with this male child "failure to launch" syndrome???? I have a son who is heading for 17. He is constantly in need of prodding in order to keep him moving on a track to success. This really doesn't bother me as I was a teenager once, and guilty of the same games. The issue here is his circle of friends. Several of them are quite clear that they will be allowed to continue to live in their sad, little state of delayed development for as many years as they chose to. One family friend is agonizing over the "need" to add an apartment to their upcoming retirement house (for their 16 YO boy) What the heck is wrong with parents who drill into their son's heads that failure is acceptable and you can be a loser for life if you want? Why would you make it clear to your son, as a high school student, that you DO NOT want, expect or demand any type of sucess as a adult male in our society? This is not only deeply disturbing, but amazingly prevalant. If you see yourself in this rant, WAKE UP. The world doesn't need more "man-children" it needs responsible men with stable jobs and families. Making junior's bed and having supper on the table for him as he turns thirty ain't gonna' cut it! It used to be the occasional loser that still was living with mom as they hit thirty, now it's an epidemic and something that kids are starting to expect at 15 or 16. How sad!

Empires rise and fall.

BooBoo

Couldnt agree more.

BooBoo

What Jena said!

This may be a bit of a generalization, but in my experience, people today, especially younger ones, seem to want instant gratification much more than we did when I was younger and just starting out. When I had my first full time job I worked 80 hours a week, with no overtime compensation. I saved most of my wages and later went to college and between my savings and the four part time jobs I held while in school managed to get through 2 1/2 years of college with no loans, no debt. I dropped out temporarily when I ran out of $$$, got a good job and expected to return to graduate, but found that the job I had gave me immediate entree into the field I intended to work in after graduation, so I decided a degree would be redundant.

While working at that job I earned high wages, but since the job schedule was sporadic I continued to live as if I was still earning minimum wage. I was touring with rock and roll bands and was paid per diem in cash on the road. In addition, I always did extra work for the production for which I was paid cash. I used to come home from every tour with at least $5k cash in my pocket, which I would immediately use as a downpayment on a new house. I would live in the houses for awhile, then convert them to rentals. At one time I owned 6 of them. Yet, I never owned a bed until I was 28 years old and in my third home- until then I slept on the floor. I never owned new furniture until I was in my fourth house and thought I had "retired" from touring. I never owned a new car until after I had been touring for several years, and only then because I had let an acquaintence borrow mine and he blew up the engine. I did not have enough $$$ to have a new engine put in, but my credit was excellent and I was able to use it to finance the purchase of a new vehicle, which I then drove for over ten years- still have it in fact and will be passing it on to a nephew in two years when he turns 16. I later purchased another new vehicle which I drove for 7-8 years and only sold when I married and moved out of state. Right now I don't even have a vehicle, unless you count the '54 Chevy pickup which we are going to restore.

But, for me, all that delayed gratification has paid off. In spite of the fact that I worked very little for 8 years after my sister died because I was helping care for her kids, I was still able to "mostly" retire in my early 40's and live on my "dream farm" with my like-minded husband. We do have some income from the farm and I still have two rentals, but there is no way we could be retired and live as well as we do if we had any debt at all. And being frugal helps, too.

Right now we are renovating our new home, and pouring lots of $$$ into it for improvements which will allow us to live more self-sufficiently in the future (wood heat, attached greenhouse, root cellar, pantry, more energy efficient insulation, etc). We figure that if the economy crashes we will still be able to live pretty comfortably here. And, if the economy doesn't crash, it won't make any difference to us either way- our lifestyle will not change dramatically.

I do feel somewhat, for people who are struggling now, and can't imagine how they will manage in an economic downturn. But at the same time, I figure that we all make choices, some of us make good choices, others bad, and we have to live with the results of those choices. I find it hard to fathom why more people don't do more in the way of saving $$ and preparing for hard times. I especially find it curious that on this forum, we have so many posters who write to say how much they are struggling, yet they still have their computers and internet access. I love my computer and the internet is a source of both income and entertainment for me, yet if I were hurting financially, it would be one of the first luxuries to go. I'm making a bit of an assumption here, but my guess is that if those people have internet access, they may well have other luxuries as well, like cell phones, cable/satellite tv, etc., and maybe that is part of the reason they are struggling. If I were me, I would cut out all the luxuries at least until I had one or two years' worth of groceries/supplies on hand, medical insurance, and enough cash saved to cover at least a year, two would be better, of expenses. THEN I would think about luxuries.

Wow, there have been a lot of great posts here. I agree with a lot that has been said already so won't bother repeating; however, while I don't think that "the sky is falling", I do think that things are going change quite a bit because of our dependence on oil. Whatever price fluctuations may happen in the short-term, in the long-term they will only go higher. As gas becomes more expensive, our lives will change. However, one positive thing I see is that locally produced products from our farms will become much more in demand as trucking things cross country will no longer be affordable.

Today,
for the very first time in at least two years, I feel really positively about the future. I have no idea what will happen to the economy or to our country or whatever. Honestly, sometimes I think that the information age is a psychotic break waiting to happen. 100 years ago, even if the country was at war, you were still really only aware of what was going on in your little microcosmic world except in the general sense. We are grappling with global questions that are HUGE compared to any generation before. Consequently most people think they are far more important than they actually are, and far more able to affect change, too.
I have spent the last year attempting to learn how to take care of myself and my family in a SHTF scenario. I am not there yet, but I have an idea what needs to be done. I have a plan. I vote. I quietly work toward the plan, then I LIVE. I choose to be happy. I love on my family. I don't dwell on what could happen. There is nothing I can do besides be prepared and vote (nad pray) anyway.
The future is not entirely up to "what happens out there". It is about what "happens in here"... in my little world. That part is up to me. If the world goes to you-know-where in a hand basket, then my kids are going to have fond memories of our time together, and be as prepared as they can be. I honestly don't know what else I have the right to expect of myself. And guys... the plan... IS FUN! That really can't be all that bad.

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Mom to 5 cool kids and wife to 1 great guy. Life is good!

But if you live about 40 miles from the market as I do and gas is $10 a gallon that will really cut into my bottom line.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

You know I just took a bunch of flak on the single forum for staying married just to keep the health insurance. One guy called me a fraud and a thief, despite the fact that I haven't lied to anyone about anything. Whatever. I don't want to die and if that means I need to stay married, then so be it.

I have an appointment today to see the surgeon for a surgical biopsy. I got the paperwork and it stated that if I did not have insurance, I would have to pay a 50% deposit to get the surgery. Near as I can figure, that is probably about $2000-3000. I don't have that sitting around. If I had to do it, I'd either sell my little truck, borrow from my family or head straight for denial and hope really hard that I didn't have cancer. Of course, if they found cancer, I wonder what the deposits are for a masectomy or radiation treatments?

I have met a lot of people in the last year who have faced situations such as this and decided that there wasn't anything they could do about it. They simply accept the fact that they have a life-threatening condition about which they can do NOTHING. I find myself having a hard time believing these people because it just goes so far against everything I was ever taught about this country, but deny as I might...it is true.

There is already a market for Americans who go overseas for needed medical care. If insurance won't cover it, or there is no insurance, people save tons of cash by having prodedures done overseas. That blows my mind because the waitress I met who has uterine cancer just can't fly to India and she will likely die....because she has no insurance. She is 24, with a small child.

Our standard of living, if you count the things that count, has really gone down the tubes. Healthcare is one really major area, but so is the costs of necessities. Energy is up. Food is up, but you can go to wally world and buy a TV for far less than I paid for one five years ago. The fun stuff just gets cheaper while the needs get higher. It's all going to collide at some point. Never mind the worthless money, how about all the worthless toys that will litter the landscape.

"Trade you a wide screen TV for a tater!" Now why would I want to do that when I can get a new one for $20 and taters cost $50?

The middle class is being placated with cheap consumer goods while the big boys are expanding into the global market to ensure their own fortune. I don't know about you, but I can't really compete there. I am disadvantaged in that regard and so are most of us.

The problems are huge and planting my own garden won't solve them. I don't know what will, but I have enough social conscious that I can't cover my own butt and forget about it. It just ain't right. So what can we do????

Jena

Jena

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...to be a rock and not to roll...

It might not solve them but atleast it will help a bit and atleast you and your family could be well fed, And will not have to try to trade the Big screen for a tater.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

minnikin1

I'm with you. People will survive with out the large box stores like walmart around.

Time to learb some skills people. Blacksmithing, harness making, Raise some livestock, like mules and goats.

We are going back to a time when your neighbor will be happy to trade you some furs for a block of goat cheese.

People will work all day puuting in fence for a bag of taters.

Get as self suffiecient as possible and wait for a time when the local community is again more important than the global political scene.

I for one say that will be a good thing.

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away

WVPEACH (paula)

==> if every person alive right now was given a sq foot to stand on, we could put everyone within the city limits of Jacksonville florida.

<boggle>

???!?!

You can't be serious.

How comfortable would you be with a single ft squared as "living space" -- you'd be *seriously* uncomfortable with 100 times that. Now ... think about how much land is needed to grow the food you eat. Think about how much land is needed to grow the pine that makes the framing for your 100 square foot house that you'll be seriously uncomfortable living in. Think about how much land is needed to grow the cotton that makes the shirt you're wearing right now. How many mountainsides are gobbled up to scrape out the coal that feeds the generators that cause the electrons to cycle through the copper running in the framing to that nice 100 sq. ft. house.

How much land does it take? I can't answer for sure but I'd bet my next year's income (all of it) that it's far larger than 10,000 times your ludicrous number of 1 sq ft. per person.

Another poster was more to the point -- all of this is *secondary* to the bigger issue of running out of fuel. None of the other industries that consume land can operate (effectively) without a constant supply of cheap fuel. That's TheBigOne(tm) to be worrying about.

When the second generation of the GM electric car,the EV-1 came out,it got 160 miles per charge!FACT!
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"No driver of a '97 EV1 would never dream of a drive like this in a lead-acid pack-equipped car. I drove 163.3 miles on one charge....."

"On flat roads and highways the 99' EV1 with NiMH should routinely get 140 to 180 miles. Its a sensation. We can't wait for our new car.

Huge congratulations to everyone involved. A revolution in Electric vehicle range. Now, for crying out loud, lets tell everyone about it! ..........."

"I don't know how hard the Porsche driver was driving his car. I am sure he wanted to leave me behind.
He could not do it!
The improved EV1 with NiMH handles like a true sports car. At the same time it has the power reserve and the acceleration to exploit it's strong suit. It doesn't have as much cornering ability as some cars but it has instant acceleration. This means that in even in a small straightway you can close almost any gap. The Porsche didn't have a chance at loosing me. As the elevation got higher the EV1 performed better and better while the piston engine car was producing less power."

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They pulled em from the market and CRUSHED EM!
Bet you didnt hear much about a viable,fast comfortable electric car with a 160 mile range,but it was out there.
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The EV1 could accelerate from 0-60mph in the 8 second range. Top speed was limited to 80 MPH, though the EV1's propulsion system and aerodynamic shape were theoretically capable of 190 MPH with modified gearing. Speed, range, and various other numbers were displayed by digital readouts spanning a thin curved strip just under the windshield and well above the dashboard.

A modified EV1 prototype set a land speed record for production electric vehicles of 183 mph (295 km/h) in 1994.


The home charging installation was about 1.5'x2'x5' with integrated heatsinks and resembled a gasoline pump. Charging itself was entirely inductive, and accomplished by placing a plastic paddle in the front port of the EV1.
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We can make all kinds of electricity without fossil fuels that can power a lot,including vehicles.

AND CHEAPER THAN ELECTRIC FROM FOSSIL FUELS,a proven FACT!

If or when fossil fuels get scarce,we already have options,both proven and sitting on the shelf,ready to take the place of fossil fuels.

One is coal to liquid fuel.The Nazis did it during WWII.Clearly it works,and we have a LOT of coal.

I dont gloom and doom about energy,I see it as a politically inspired economic rape of the masses,nothing more.We arent going back to the stone age.

BooBoo.

I totally agree with this entire post, my thoughts exactly!

What MoonWolf said. (As far as more folks living off the land, there isn't enough land for that!

PLenty of land in the dakota's that use to support people that is empty now as a result of farm subsidies that reward big land owners and restrictive laws such as no raw milk sales, Those places once supported homesteaders and are empty now, If they eliminated land taxes and let people live a subsistence life there, I bet there is plenty of land that could be homesteaded on.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

I think things are going to go down hill but I am not sure that is all bad. Does it mean some people won't be able to afford the 3,000 sq foot house they didn't need in the first place, yes. Does it mean you might have to drive a Chevy instead of a BMW? Maybe we can get back to living with what we really need and not what Madison Ave says we need. Maybe it will mean not having gas money to run all over and peole will actually have to spend real time with their families.

I see economic collapse triggered by inflation. Everything is in place, all we need now is for the Coyote to look down and realize he's not on the cliff anymore.

A few years ago I would have guessed an energy crisis but I think the economic ramifications will arrive sooner. Funny thing is, the economic crisis should eliminate the energy crisis because Americans won't be able to afford 23 million barrels of oil per day.

1. Our currency is backed by nothing
2. Our economy is 75% services which produce no wealth
3. We are the world's reserve currency which is masking the problems and creating most of them too
4. We have future obligations that are estimated between 50 and 80 TRILLION dollars- will we work for $10/hr to pay them off or will we print them?
5. Baby boomers are retiring, pulling their money out of the stock market instead of adding to it while requiring trillions in social security and medicaid/care.
6. Everything is made from oil and since 2000 oil has gone up 500%, ready for inflation?

Buy silver, gold, guns, and get a serious education in feeding and fending for yourself. Of course, this is old news to you homesteaders. If it makes you feel any better, even if you're broke, you're 10 steps ahead of me.

Look, when a moron like me that grew up in the city, was brain washed by the system, worked for several major corporations finally decides that it's time to get the hell out of the city and pull all of my money out of the stock market to invest in precious metals, THERE IS REALLY SOMETHING GOING DOWN.

I agree with you, Citiot.

I think everyone's first priority right now should be to get out of adjustable-rate debt, highest rate first. Follow that by getting out of any fixed-rate debt that is higher than what you can get in a 3 month CD on the same amount of money.

I'm waffling about paying off my car, on a fixed rate loan; I'm expecting a windfall check in the next few days that (after taxes) almost exactly matches the remaining balance on the car loan. Wondering if I can find a CD that will make more money than the interest I'm paying on the car. Also wondering if I have the self control not to fritter it away frivilously if I don't use it. "Car paid off" is more a 'need' than new clothes or toys. I'm just wondering if the economy will push me to the 'car vs food' stage, or if inflation will devalue the sum if I keep it as cash. Also, if gas becomes to expensive to drive, do you care if your car is repossessed?