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08/12/06, 08:11 PM
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Banned
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by emulkahi1
Bob--
The following quote from those conclusions gives the reason the "clinical efficacy of milk thistle is not clearly established."
It would follow that this statement would also serve to make suspect the conclusions of any other paper you might post....Because it could be that it would be among those that employ "poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications."
In addition, at no point did this paper say that milk thistle therapies were INeffective. Rather, the statement was made that "Available evidence is not sufficient to suggest whether milk thistle may be more effective for some liver diseases than others or if effectiveness might be related to duration of therapy or chronicity and severity of liver disease."
It also states that "available evidence does suggest that milk thistle is associated with few, and generally minor, adverse effects."
Erin
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that would also apply to anything you might post ...but I would check that out....
REcent Cochrane review (2005) found no change in mortality rates with milk thistle or placebo.....meaning it is no better than placebo and does not affect the disease process......your turn.....
WEstwood...you didn't answer the question but I understand.....
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08/12/06, 08:13 PM
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Unreality star
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York
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How about we put BobK, Qwispea, and Tsdave in their own little forum and see who comes out alive?
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Recognize the beauty in things, in creation, even when thats difficult to do.
Be loving, show compassion. Create while we're here.
Enjoy this life, be in this life but not be of it.
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08/12/06, 08:20 PM
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Question Answerer
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You gotta throw Tinknal in there for the "wine and cheese" comment.
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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08/12/06, 08:21 PM
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Banned
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shygal
How about we put BobK, Qwispea, and Tsdave in their own little forum and see who comes out alive?
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how about you posting something on hepatitis C?
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08/12/06, 08:27 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Central MT
Posts: 346
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Quote:
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Recent Cochrane review (2005) found no change in mortality rates with milk thistle or placebo.....meaning it is no better than placebo and does not affect the disease process......your turn.....
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But the question remains, could this Cochrane review (2005) be one of the ones that your other reference meant when it stated that "Interpretation of the evidence is hampered by poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications."...?
Could it be that this Cochrane review had study design flaws such as "heterogeneity in etiology and extent of liver disease, small sample sizes, and variation in formulation, dosing, and duration of milk thistle therapy." After all, it WAS your reference that said these were the problems that hampered the interpretation of evidence concerning the clinical efficacy of milk thistle therapies.
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that would also apply to anything you might post ...but I would check that out....
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No worries there, as I do not intend to post papers that "prove" (or not) anything concerning this subject. 
Erin
Quote:
Clinical efficacy of milk thistle is not clearly established. Interpretation of the evidence is hampered by poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications. Problems in study design include heterogeneity in etiology and extent of liver disease, small sample sizes, and variation in formulation, dosing, and duration of milk thistle therapy. Possible benefit has been shown most frequently, but not consistently, for improvement in aminotransferases and liver function tests are overwhelmingly the most common outcome measure studied. Survival and other clinical outcome measures have been studied least often, with both positive and negative findings. Available evidence is not sufficient to suggest whether milk thistle may be more effective for some liver diseases than others or if effectiveness might be related to duration of therapy or chronicity and severity of liver disease. Regarding adverse effects, little evidence is available regarding causality, but available evidence does suggest that milk thistle is associated with few, and generally minor, adverse effects.
Despite substantial in vitro and animal research, the mechanism of action of milk thistle is not fully defined and may be multifactorial. A systematic review of this evidence to clarify what is known and identify gaps in knowledge would be important to guide design of future studies of the mechanisms of milk thistle and clinical trials.
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08/12/06, 08:29 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,607
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BobK
that would also apply to anything you might post ...but I would check that out....
REcent Cochrane review (2005) found no change in mortality rates with milk thistle or placebo.....meaning it is no better than placebo and does not affect the disease process......your turn.....
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It's all subject to your interpretation eh bob...
From The Cochrane Library, Issue 3, 2006
PLAIN LANGUAGE SUMMARY
No evidence supporting or refuting milk thistle for alcoholic and/or hepatitis B or C virus liver diseases
Milk thistle (Silybum marianum (L) Gaertneri) extracts have been used as medical remedies since the time of ancient Greece. Alcohol and hepatotoxic viruses are the major causes of liver diseases. Several trials have studied the effects of milk thistle for patients with liver diseases. This systematic review could not demonstrate significant effects of milk thistle on mortality or complications of liver diseases in patients with alcoholic and/or hepatitis B or C liver diseases combining all trials or high-quality trials. Low-quality trials suggested beneficial effects. High-quality randomised clinical trials on milk thistle versus placebo may be needed.
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08/12/06, 08:31 PM
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Unreality star
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Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BobK
how about you posting something on hepatitis C?
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How about you NOT post something on hepatitis C?
This thread is about people who hijack threads, which is what my post was completely relevant to.
Yours however, are not. I think EVERYONE knows where you stand on things, why do you have to keep pounding and pounding at it? If you HAD a good message people stop reading it with the incessant beating it into the ground.
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Recognize the beauty in things, in creation, even when thats difficult to do.
Be loving, show compassion. Create while we're here.
Enjoy this life, be in this life but not be of it.
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08/12/06, 08:34 PM
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__________________
The human spirit needs places where nature has not been rearranged by the hand of man.
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08/12/06, 08:40 PM
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Banned
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Location: Dwelling in the state of Confusion - but just passing thru...
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[QUOTE=Shygal] How about we put BobK, Qwispea, and Tsdave in their own little forum and see who comes out alive?[/QUOTE]
I would be willing to PAY PER VIEW on a set-up like that; and BET that there would be many others that would do the same.......shall we propose such a venture to the owner(s)/moderators.......they could take a piece of the action!!!  
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08/12/06, 08:43 PM
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Prognosticator, Artist
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Location: KY
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Well....Hmmmmm....
I've read both threads and I've reached a few objective conclusions:
1. BobK definitely started out in kind, respectful, and concerned tones. He is obviously familiar with the disease, being a Pharmacologist and Toxicoligist, as well as being infected with it himself. His original posts sounded to me as if he were genuinely concerned for the patient's well-being.
2. BobK has a worldview that allows no room for "Faith" or "Hope" that is not well-documented by authoritative research (unless you're speaking of the fossil record, but that's for another thread...)
3. BobK has unfortunately developed a bit of a Superiority complex, due to his vast experience and knowlege, and that makes him sound a bit arrogant as the threads have progressed.
4. In his defense, I must say that his arguments have been rational and well-supported. In actuality, there probably is no known homeopathic natural remedy for this disease.
5. Although his posts were a bit argumentative and left no room whatsoever for the voices of Natural Remedies, I really don't think he "Hijacked" the Thread. He may have "Annoyed" the Thread, but he didn't "Hijack" it. With BobK you must realize that ANY natural or homeopathic remedy will be derided, because such remedies do not embody the current schools of thought and training. Also, since authoritative research is usually not available on such remedies, he can always argue his points ad-nauseum.
Again, these are just my humble observations, offered in hopes of a better understanding and universal cooperation and respect.
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08/12/06, 08:44 PM
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Banned
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by emulkahi1
But the question remains, could this Cochrane review (2005) be one of the ones that your other reference meant when it stated that "Interpretation of the evidence is hampered by poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications."...?
Could it be that this Cochrane review had study design flaws such as "heterogeneity in etiology and extent of liver disease, small sample sizes, and variation in formulation, dosing, and duration of milk thistle therapy." After all, it WAS your reference that said these were the problems that hampered the interpretation of evidence concerning the clinical efficacy of milk thistle therapies.
No worries there, as I do not intend to post papers that "prove" (or not) anything concerning this subject.
Erin |
LOL nice one! Cochrane reviews are not studies but rather a critique of the quality of studies published in the literature...so the answer would be no, the conclusion is based on the consensus from the pubished literature........that's right there are problems with the studies on milk thistle.....but the better quality ones contradict the postive results of the poorer studies....so if your life depended on it which results do you beleive.....good study?....or poor study?
I guess its pretty clear then that you have nothing, or wish to anything,.....you just want to rag on me...OK....LOL!
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08/12/06, 08:55 PM
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Banned
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by primal1
It's all subject to your interpretation eh bob...
From The Cochrane Library, Issue 3, 2006
PLAIN LANGUAGE SUMMARY
No evidence supporting or refuting milk thistle for alcoholic and/or hepatitis B or C virus liver diseases
Milk thistle (Silybum marianum (L) Gaertneri) extracts have been used as medical remedies since the time of ancient Greece. Alcohol and hepatotoxic viruses are the major causes of liver diseases. Several trials have studied the effects of milk thistle for patients with liver diseases. This systematic review could not demonstrate significant effects of milk thistle on mortality or complications of liver diseases in patients with alcoholic and/or hepatitis B or C liver diseases combining all trials or high-quality trials. Low-quality trials suggested beneficial effects. High-quality randomised clinical trials on milk thistle versus placebo may be needed.
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that's right no significant effects on mortality or complications of liver disease....kinda what I've been saying.....eh?
recently completed NCCAM trial.....no beneficial effects for the HCV patient....one of those larger trials mentioned that were needed to assess the efficacy of milk thistle....ya know I wish it could be true but it just ain't happinin......first sentence in the review....
Milk thistle, a widely used alternative medicine, is not proven effective in lowering mortality in alcoholic or hepatitis B or C liver disease, according to a systematic review of current evidence.
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08/12/06, 09:06 PM
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Banned
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Posts: 2,230
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Boleyz
I've read both threads and I've reached a few objective conclusions:
1. BobK definitely started out in kind, respectful, and concerned tones. He is obviously familiar with the disease, being a Pharmacologist and Toxicoligist, as well as being infected with it himself. His original posts sounded to me as if he were genuinely concerned for the patient's well-being.
BobK:
Absolutely correct!
2. BobK has a worldview that allows no room for "Faith" or "Hope" that is not well-documented by authoritative research (unless you're speaking of the fossil record, but that's for another thread...)
BobK: LOL
3. BobK has unfortunately developed a bit of a Superiority complex, due to his vast experience and knowlege, and that makes him sound a bit arrogant as the threads have progressed.
BobK:
No not a superiority complex...the info is available for anyone....its more irritation when someone who knows nothing of the subject telling me I'm full of it or don't know what I'm talking about.......before checking to see if I might just be correct!
4. In his defense, I must say that his arguments have been rational and well-supported. In actuality, there probably is no known homeopathic natural remedy for this disease.
BobK:.......orother natural remedy...
5. Although his posts were a bit argumentative and left no room whatsoever for the voices of Natural Remedies, I really don't think he "Hijacked" the Thread. He may have "Annoyed" the Thread, but he didn't "Hijack" it. With BobK you must realize that ANY natural or homeopathic remedy will be derided, because such remedies do not embody the current schools of thought and training. Also, since authoritative research is usually not available on such remedies, he can always argue his points ad-nauseum.
BobK: There is always room for rational discussion of pros and cons within the base of evidence surrounding this disese.......there is a great deal of research available for discussion....for other things they aren't worth the effort to consider them....but you need some familiarity of it before you try and tell someone they are incorrect in their conclusions....
Again, these are just my humble observations, offered in hopes of a better understanding and universal cooperation and respect.
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Nice post!
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08/12/06, 09:32 PM
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Banned
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quite a few people reading this thread.....no doubt some infected with HCV as well.......compared to not many posting....you tell me....no interest?
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08/12/06, 09:34 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 878
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I don't think at this point there is much interest on this thread regarding the medical aspect Bobk. And this thread wasn't about the medical aspect, if I remember correctly.
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08/12/06, 09:35 PM
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Fair to adequate Mod
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Ya know, this is a public forum. Thread drift.....people stating their opinions and experiences....and even criticism is a fact of life.
Since this is not a homesteading topic, I am closing this thread.
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