That gun-shooting neighbor is in custody...

Tragedy but unavoidable- too bad he couldn't understand them. Here in London they shot a foreign man who probably didn't understand their commands to freeze (and coming from a country where he probably would be correct and safer to run away from 'cops' with guns) during work after the July 7 attacks. Rarely do we need to be able to understand and immediately obey the police when we are going about our regular business but those unable to do so run the risk of death either shot by police or killed by the risk the police want to protect us from.

Yes, the one or two really bad mistakes get a LOT of publicity...while the thousands of real "heros" of daily acts of kindness basically gets no press. Gives a very skewed portrait of the police.

OTOH...I hate when the local police here set up traffic "stings."

I was on my way to church for worship band practice. I stopped at a corner, looked both ways, no cars fpr as far as the eye could see, which is very far on that road, pulled out and found a cop on my tail. Got pulled over and told I didn't make a stop because I didn't count to 3 very slowly. So for driving in a perfectly safe manner, mid-morning in a place where the traffic is minimal in busy times of the day, I got a $120.00 ticket and lost 2 points on my insurance rating. When I pulled into the church parking lot I saw that he had just pulled over another law-abiding citizen going about her way...why not go where there are real traffic violators who are actually endangering people's lives?

Last winter, we were outside one of our rentals, giving the keys to a new tenant. My son, a very short 13yo, was tossing snowballs up in the air and they were falling on the sidewalk in front of him. he was bored. A car followed by a cop in a cop car pull over. We thought the cop was pulling over the car. The cop amazed us by marching up to us military fashion. He was a very tall, very buff guy, towered over us, much less my son. He marches up to my son like a Marine drill sargent and confronts him. He booms out, hands on hips, "WERE YOU THROWING SNOWBALLS AT MY CAR???"
Meanwhile I have no idea who the guys in the car that pulled over first were. The cars were on the OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET FROM US! It was so bizarre, almost surrealistic. It was after dark, which made it even weirder. All of us quickly assured him what had been going on. It took a few people from around us to convince him. Just as fast as he blew up on us, he turned and walked away. It was soooo weird! Snowball rage. I guess he saw one flying up in the air out of the corner of his eye and assumed it was coming across the street at him rather than straight up in the air and down on the sidewalk?

The funny thing is, my dh is now employed at the City Municipal Building, which houses the Town Clerk, City Manager, Zoning, and Police Department.

Now all the cops are our friends...we probably wouldn't get a ticket now for driving nude with no license or registration. Somehow we are now a part of the "Good Ol' Boys" network.

We still obey the law though...

Still and all, even with these minor deviations from acceptable cop behavior, I much prefer a society with the protection of our police than one without it. They are out there risking their lives daily. Most of our cops are really good guys, some are truly wonderful. There are a few who can be buttheads, as mentioned above, but, that goes for any group, doesn't it?

Meloc,

Do we really want a police force that is trained to run from confrontation or attack?

It is tempting to be a “Monday morning quarterback” and say what we think we would do under the circumstances or what others “should have done” – but that is far different than being involved in the situation.

We do not have enough information about the actual circumstances in the case cited to make a decision about what should or should not have been done. That should, and probably will, be done in court.

I, personally, would not expect law enforcement personnel to take any great risk of bodily injury to prevent injury or death of a homicidal, deranged and threatening person – or to run from an attack.

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Whether you believe you can or you believe you cannot – you are usually right.

This does not include flying or moving mountains unassisted or attempting to prove the existence of an “afterlife”.

Not unavoidable. When somebody is no immediate threat (bunch of cops with guns pointed at him), a bit of patience is too much to ask? Even if this was the escaped convict (which another bunch cops shot the next day), if he is no immediate threat to anybody and has no weapon visible, whats a bit of time to let things settle and cool off. Were cops afraid their coffee and doughnuts would get cold? And think what we as private citizens would get charged with if we pulled same thing on somebody who looked suspicious? Sorry but Mr. Itchyfinger Cop needed to be charged with minimum of felony manslaughter and spend at least few years in jail to think about his actions. This misdemenor negligent homicide charge (had no idea such a worthless, weasley charge even existed) is bigger slap in face of the boy's family than just letting cop off scott free.

Where is Sheriff Andy Taylor with common sense when you need him rather than twitchy Deputy Barney Fife ready to shoot at every gust of wind. Too bad this cop wasnt as bad of a shot as good ole Barney.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

It sure would be great if our police force really could be made up of superhumans with psyche abilities. Fact is they are just as human as the rest of us.

We, the voting public, will not vote in pay raises for our underpaid police force, so I sincerely doubt that we are going to vote in the cost of having each police offer schooled and trained to deal more effectively with the mentally ill/challenged.

What's that saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes before we judge them?

Hugs
marlene

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It is the one with persistence and determination that brings great ideas into being.

I wonder: if I am standing on my property with a gun in my hand, maybe doing some target practice, and some crazed guy jumps out of the bushes and starts flashing and swinging a knife in my direction, am I justified to shoot him? This is self-defence, right? Why then is it different in the case of a police officer?

Or maybe in this scenario, I should just drop my gun and run away, hoping he doesn't catch me?

DD

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."

isnt owning a handgun in Canada against the law? When I drove thru to Alaska, Customs must have asked a dozen times each trip, if i had a handgun because in their words " Handguns aint allowed in zCanada and you dont want to get caught with one" have they changed their laws in the last three years?

I would immagin that gun laws and self defence laws are quite different in the great white north?

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The Journey -IS- the Destination

Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, Its about learning to dance in the rain....

Jillis, you would probably be amazed at how lenient many cops are about traffic violations.

I for one rarely stop and write anyone for speeding until they are at 10 MPH or better over the limit. This allows for mechanical (speedometer) and human error and most people at that point will just pay the fine and move on with their lives, since they know they were at fault.

Of course, I had one member here accuse me of setting my own law instead of enforcing the actual limit as posted, but would you want a ticket for going 1 MPH over?

When it comes to stopsigns, I'm from CA originally which is the home of the "California Stop", that is a rolling (less than 1-2 MPH) stop. I rarely write for these, especially since 9 out of 10 times there is nobody coming. I usually stop them and counsel them about how 99% of our accidents involve somebody not yielding and they always say they never even saw the other vehicle that hit them.

I was recently lectured by a supervisor for not booking a person who had a suspended license. The person was coming back from state guard duty and was in uniform. He also told me that he had no idea he had been suspended.

I had another person where there was strong evidence to support some type of paperwork error on the state's part. Would you want to go to jail over an error?

Most cops use common sense and really are looking for the worst offenders and the people who have absolutely no respect for anyone or society's laws.

Just in case nobody noticed the thread drift, , I do want to say that I wasn't faulting the cops that took my neighbor in. It's often the laws that tie the hands of the cops. They don't want to haul them in just so they can be released in an hour. Sometimes, yes, they need to be the eyewitness to behavioral problems, otherwise it has to go in the record as them never seeing anything out of the ordinary. And the law is going to take the word of someone who supposedly has been trained to observe over someone who has not (the average lay person)

Maybe some of the laws need to be changed, but the cops are doing their job as best as they can. Most of them...but every group has a couple bad 'uns, now, don't they?

Meg

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All life requires death to support itself. The key is to have an abiding respect for the deaths that support you. --- Mark T. Sullivan

Meg, please pardon comments of mine that contributed to thread drift away from your original intent.

What is the status of the situation now? Is the neighbor still "away"?

For when he returns, it might be wise to keep a 12-gauge "restraining order" near at hand with a willingness to use it if required for self-protection. A paper restraining order, which some might suggest, may have little effect upon insane or obsessed people (though they can be a help in some instances) and a sheet of paper isn’t known to be much protection against a crazy person with a gun.

In some situations moving can be the best option – depending on the circumstances and the threat level. I am NOT recommending that alternative, only noting that it exists. If one were to refuse to be “run off by a crazy neighbor” and end up being hurt or killed or having to do the same to an assailant, was proving the point worth the cost?

It is unfortunate that we must occasionally deal with such people, but that is the price of living among humans. A certain percentage of people are crazy, obsessed, hostile, dangerous, criminal, etc. It is also useful to acknowledge that law enforcement personnel are responsible (at least theoretically) with protecting society in general and not individuals in particular. Individual protection, IMO, is the responsibility of the individual or a bodyguard.

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Whether you believe you can or you believe you cannot – you are usually right.

This does not include flying or moving mountains unassisted or attempting to prove the existence of an “afterlife”.

I agree. A restraining order is only a piece of paper, but they can be useful.

In Idaho, the police can arrest on violation of one even if they do not actually witness it (it's one of the few exceptions of misdemeanors having to be committed in the police officer's presence).

So, if your state has a similar law, I would get a restraining order so that the police at least have a tool to help you should problems arise.

As far as defending yourself in your own home, you have every right, but keep in mind, the police are usually responding after the fact and may not just decide you legally defended yourself and let you go. You may be arrested until a judge and prosecutor decide the actions you took were legal and justified.

If this happens, I would strongly suggest not speaking to the police about anything until you speak to your attorney (plead the fifth amendment).

I would tell the police something like, "I fully intend to cooperate in your investigation, but I do not want to make a statement until I speak to an attorney."

I am not an attorney, but this is what I would do should I ever be in the situation.

It's not that you did something wrong, but what you might say under pressure and in a traumatized state of mind can be used against you.

I would also suggest documenting with the police any and all incidences that may occur to you and your family. For instance, vandalisms, thefts, suspicious circumstances, stalkings, hang up phone calls, etc.

DW and I have always done this, so that if something dramatic ever happened such as having to defend ourselves against an intruder in our home, we would be able to show a state of mind where we were fearful due to other things that had occurred.

Anyway, you should fully expect this person to come home again. It's likely anything he was arrested for will likely be dismissed or even if he is convicted will only result in a fine and/or a few days in jail.

Also, domestic violence victims are famous for going back to their victimizers and supporting them through any charges the person might face.

Get ready for a rant/

I for one would like to receive a little respect during a traffic stop and to not be treated like a criminal. I've never been arrested or been convicted of a crime other than a traffic citation in my life. In fact I'm a volunteer reserve officer for my county. I'm getting sick and tired of being treated like a hardened criminal or potential juicy asset forfeiture when I get pulled over for a burned out taillight. I'm tired of playing 20 questions quiz show with the officer during a traffic stop while he tries to get me to admit to crimes and forfeit my rights so he can rummage through my vehicle. Those wonderful word games such as "You don't have anything illegal in the car so you do mind me looking do you?" Or questions they don't have any reason to ask such as where you are going or where you have been. Then when I try to politely decline to answer what is none of his business as is my right to do, chances are that things degenerate in a hurry and I'm asked to get out of the car. Various threats to incarcerate get made and in two separate cases I've had guns pointed at me. One of which was shoved in my ear because after being badgered for 10th time I declined to give consent to search. "Officer "X" for the last time, I do not give consent to a search my vehicle." That was deemed as "being a mouthy <expletive redacted>" and a pistol was shoved into my ear and I was thrown over a squad car. Never been in trouble in my life. Grew up in a LE family. Hang out with cops all the time. Was working PT with the department. Don't even drink. Get treated like that. I wondered if I was gonna get shot. I thought this guy was nutty enough to do it. I was dark and we were out away from everyone with no witnesses he could have.

That really bad incident was 10 years ago and it seems like it is getting worse. The younger the cop is the worse he is. You don't have to worry about the older guys. When I was a teenager (I graduated in 90) the cops could be mean and ornery but they were fair. These young guys now are just have an adversarial militaristic attitude that isn't healthy. It's breeding a distrust and and contempt of LE among the public that is going to just get worse. I'm even hearing it among some older ladies and soccer moms types when they're talking about a couple of younger cops with bad attitudes. It rubs off on the whole dept.

Anyway, I'm always respectful during a TS. I roll down my windows and turn on the dome light and keep my hands on the dash where they can see them. For most that is fine and there is no problem. For others they have to play their games. They want to poke around through my stuff and play 20 question quiz show. They can find someone else to play gestapo with. I have no interest in playing that game. I'm sick of being treated like a criminal during traffic stops. If you're gonna write me then write me. But don't ask questions you have no business asking and don't ask to rummage around through my vehicle. I'll be polite. You'll be polite. You'll do your job. My rights are respected. That's all I ask.

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Respect The Cactus!

[QUOTE=Obser]Meg, please pardon comments of mine that contributed to thread drift away from your original intent.

What is the status of the situation now? Is the neighbor still "away"?
QUOTE]


Obser,
I'm not bothered by the drift...I actually found it rather amazing!

The neighbor is still away. His wife plans to let us know when he's out...as soon as she can. He won't sign any papers letting them tell her anything about his condition, so they may not inform her of his release.

A paper restraining order is just a fire-starter around here. In fact, getting one is apt to antagonize an already unstable person and tip them over the edge. About all they do is get the person an extra tag on their sentence ...you know..."he violated a restraining order when he approached and killed her, so we can give him an extra five years for that!"

So, I am armed, I am a pretty good shot with pistol or shotgun, will shoot if I need to, and am willing to take the consequences of keeping my skin intact.

In the meantime, I'm not gonna dwell on it too much. I'll be as prepared as I can be, but I'm not stopping my life on a 'what if' thing.

Ya'll can go back to the thread drift now...just wanted to admire it for a minute.

Meg

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All life requires death to support itself. The key is to have an abiding respect for the deaths that support you. --- Mark T. Sullivan

Meg,

Thanks for the gentle words and for the update.It is good to hear that you are prepared to defend yourself and yours (and that you are not cowering in fear as many would). If anything does happen and if you act rationally there should be no consequences beyond inconvenience -- especially if you speak to no one after the event and ask to speak to an attorney immediately (and repeatedly with witnesses if necessary).

It might be wise to get legal advice and to check state and local laws regarding self-defense. Such laws vary greatly from place to place.

__________________
Whether you believe you can or you believe you cannot – you are usually right.

This does not include flying or moving mountains unassisted or attempting to prove the existence of an “afterlife”.

Well, if we must be particular....LOL....you could always change my story to read that I was standing in my back 40 with a rifle practicing....anyhoo.....
I'm pretty sure that most handguns are now not allowed (sorry, I am not a gun owner), since gun ownership here is pretty restrictive. Part of the reason the customs probably asked you is that it is a pretty common belief that all Americans carry guns on their person for 'personal protection' and are almost fanatical in their right to carry them. Notice I said it is a perception, not necessarily the truth. So please don't flame me for that.

Self defence is self defence. If someone is threatening your life, you have the right to protect yourself. Canada is just as permissive in this as Americans. If the attacker gets killed, I think it's safe to say that most people think he got what he deserved.

DD

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."

Sunday night I had to deal with the local police and was advised when the investigation is complete I may want to get a restraining order because though it doesn't protect me and mine per se it does give the police an additional leg to stand on. Currently the person could drive up the street where my children are staying to "visit" an ex girlfriend, if I get the order and he is seen on the street and he can be removed. Most nut jobs won't stay away just for an order its true but it does help, it also helps as proof that you had a reason to fear for your safety if you ever have to defend yourself.

Not to contribute any further to thread drift, but FreightTrain asked a question about handgun ownership in Canada. This is directly from the website, Coalition for Gun Control:

Canada has always had stronger firearms regulation than the United States, particularly with respect to handguns. In Canada, handguns have been licensed and registered since the 1930’s, ownership of guns has never been regarded as a right and several court rulings have reaffirmed the right of the government to protect citizens from guns. Handgun ownership has been restricted to police, members of gun clubs or collectors. Very few (about 50 in the country) have been given permits to carry handguns for "self-protection." This is only possible if an applicant can prove that their life is in danger and the police cannot protect them.

Indeed, it is possible to own a handgun in Canada -- you just don't have the RIGHT to. Small difference, but one that gives rise to the mistaken belief that guns are illegal in Canada. They're not.

Tracy

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Ignorance is the true enemy.

I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children.

www.newcenturyhomestead.com

Okay, it seems everytime I post on this thread, something happens across the street! He was released yesterday, while I was contently typing that he was still incarcerated.

Just peachy. I love our system!

Meg

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All life requires death to support itself. The key is to have an abiding respect for the deaths that support you. --- Mark T. Sullivan

I don't think I would give consent to search my vehicle either and I am in LE! I have nothing to hide, but how do I know whether someone who hates me hasn't dumped some dope into my car while the windows were down because it was hot out? It could happen and where would that leave me?

What Quint is talking about sounds like drug interdiction tactics. If you live in an area that has alot of drug trafficking, then that' what is going to happen.

In my area, I at least remotely know the person I am stopping and sometimes don't even rin them through dispatch. I would likely know ehether they were suspended or wanted.

If I am going to write a ticket, I don't lecture them too. If I am not going to write one, I feel they owe me a minute or two to explain what they did wrong.

Either way I am polite and efficient.

As far as questions, I will ask where they are headed or where they have been if it's someone I have never seen before or if I am investigating a DUI (them admitting they were just at a bar solidifies my case, IMHO), but on a simple traffic stop, I am not really chatty unless they want to be.

While as a younger police officer, I was never what you described but I have really toned down from what I was. Once my reputation was intact, I could ease up a little and people knew when they were getting a break.

But, if I have to, I can be agressive and surly, especially when it comes to defending an innocent victim of a crime.

THIS is how they do drug interdiction:

Listen to the MP3:
http://wms.scripps.com/knoxville/siler/siler.mp3

As you read along with the transcript: (pdf file right click and save as)
http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/silertranscript.pdf

Keep in mind the torture continues far after the tape runs out. They continue to beat and torture him and attempt to drown him in a bathtub and fish tank unless he confesses.

A quick overview:http://www.theagitator.com/archives/018592.php

Interdict as in torture with electrodes to the genitals, beatings, finger breaking, drownings, threatening to kill him and his family, rape his wife among other atrocities. Makes you wonder about those D.A.R.E. officers at your kid's school are really up to.

Look up the Lester Eugene Siler torture case in Campbell County Tennessee. Sent their drug task force and DARE officer to prison.
If someone hadn't managed to tape recorded this incident no one would have believed it. How much of this really goes on? How many people are getting set up? How many people are getting confessions tortured out of them? How many people are getting evidence planted on them? How much of this goes on along those so-called "drug interdiction routes" to fund those departments with cool new cop toys with asset forfeiture goodies and cash. That is just begging for corruption. I know some people who shall remain nameless *ahem* installed very well hidden surreptitious recording equipment in their vehicle to record what goes on if they get stopped. Their own experiences and the above incident convinced them to do so.

Things are getting into a very ugly area and I don't like where it is going. It's getting bad when you're from a cop family, work with and for cops and more or less are a cop yourself and find yourself almost afraid of ones you don't personally know.

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Respect The Cactus!