How many "self sufficient" will end up on gov't roles?

There seems to be a lot of issues that are getting confused here. First of all, I don't think anyone homesteads to become wealthy. Most of us homestead because we love the healthy lifestyle, we love the sense of "least dependency" on the government that we get, and we enjoy the decreased financial strain compared to buying all our food, clothes, and fuel commercially. Most of us believe in being as self-sufficient as possible, thereofore, don't like government "entitlement" programs if they can be helped.
Second, I don't think people should homestead with an eye stuck tight to any doomsday scenario in mind. What if someone in the family had a major illness and couldn't work for a while, or lost their job...a more personal crisis rather than a global one? (We've been there. I had cancer 10 years ago at the tender age of 34. We were ready though. We had prepared for something, and it worked out well. Last year, I needed a hysterectomy and Bouncenhumble had emergency back surgery. We were out of work for 4 months, and we survived just fine, because we were prepared.) How would you pay for your taxes, mortgage, food, utilities, gas, car payments, insurance, medical, etc.? Do you need to go out and develop a nest egg? Do you need to get rid of some frivolous expenses that suck your money? Do you need to build up food storage so you have something to live off when times get tight? You see, I believe homesteading should be approached with a business attitude. You should draw up a mission statement about what you hope/plan to achieve by doing it. Also, a business plan that outlines how you will achieve it. A budget to follow is important, and sticking to it is even more important. Credit cards are a serious impediment to financial security, so I'd seriously consider doing without them.
Bouncenhumble works full time as a tree surgeon. He'd love to stay and work on the homestead all day, but in today's world, that's not reality. We have to have money to pay off the mortgage, to keep the insurance on the house and vehicles, to buy gasoline for the vehicles and tractor, to keep our health insurance, or create a health savings plan, to buy some of the items we cannot produce, but need to have anyway. (Salt, spices, paint, nails, animal wormers, oils, etc.) Unless you go from homesteading to farming, it is indeed hard to make a living doing just that.
We are in the process of going to real estate investing so that Bouncenhumble can stop working for another company and we can work for ourselves, but we have to make sure all our ducks are in a row first. Another year, and he can quit his job and work the real estate and the homestead and still live within our current means. If times get desperate, we would still live well, because along with planning financially for the future, we have gained skills, knowlege, and are willing to adapt.

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Our website is www.thequeensblessing.com

I'm glad you're blessed enough to be able to do all that. Many of us (or at least myself) are not.. If we tryed to build a (nest egg) we'd be out on the street from lack of paying bills. We don't spend unwisely. In fact the most luxury item we have is this internet connection(20/month).. our only debt is our mortage (375/mth) and our homestead payment (150/month).. but between the utility bill,mortage,land,phone,internet, car insurance,gas (160/mth.. to work and back and to the store 2x a month).. we are sucked dry each month.. I'd venture to say if we tried to put even $5 away we'd be in trouble.

Not from a lack of trying either.. We were both working full time jobs for quite a while.. I quit mine to go back to school and you know what? We actually have MORE on one income than on 2.. Crazy but true

As for insurance.. its a scam... I'd never carry health insurance because its a waste of money for us.. We've neither one been to a doctor in close to 13 years. We treat ourselves at home.. I'd much rather die than owe some rich smuck for the rest of my life.

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"Let the beauty we love, be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." Rumi

TheQueensblessing, excellent post! I think that more should see the whole picture instead of the self gratification now and think they can withdraw from the economic society without problems later. It is definetly a matter of accepted responsibility and doing whatever it takes.

For those that think insurance is a scam and don't have it I wish you the best and hope you're healthy and lucky. I played that game and took years of working off debt to pay for unexpected hospital and doctor bills. It might be a scam of sorts and a game, but it is the only game in town and playable if you know the rules.

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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence"
Robert Frost

Obviously you choose to only read what you WANT to see.. I will have no unexpected hospital/dr bills because I REFUSE to go.. I'd rather die..

Only game/playable if you know the rules. The only rules I know are if their ain't no money for it then do I do without it or starve.. Sorry but I'll take the former.

To each their own but I don't think you can try and dictate/make insurance a manditory thing.. unless of course you want to be like Canada and make it part of the take out of your paycheck(manditory).. That I'd vote for.. Better than the trash our taxes go for now.

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"Let the beauty we love, be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." Rumi

AMEN!.
thequeensblessing you dont have to be a slave to a mortgage the key is downsizing an dmoving to an area that is cheaper find an old foreclosed house in a cheap area of the USA or buy raw land in AR for 3k an acre and build your own alternative house I know a guy down the road that just bought 3 acres and built a plywood house they are both students and he i sgardening to sell at the farmers market. You dont have to have a 100k or more mortgage people can and do build their own homes and buy their land for under 10k. It is all about the standard of living and freedom level YOU choose their are other options out there. You just have to be willing to live below your means move to the right place and be flexible.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

True Pcdreams if we needed a 1k or more root canal or something and no other option I think we would just take a pleasure trip to Mexico and get it done for a few hundred dollars.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

Of course, you are right. It is the standard of living we choose. However, if I want to own a nice home, and not a "plywood" house, I have to find a way to pay for it and I have to be willing to pay for it. That doesn't mean I have to be a slave to a mortgage. What it does mean is that homesteading doesn't have to be about doing without. You can do without if you choose to, but you don't have to.
We have 160,000 mortgage on our 3 bedroom home on 15 acres. We are paying it off as quickly as possible. We are making extra payments, and intend to pay it off within a few years. But we love our homestead, and are willing to do what we need to do to pay for it. We would rather work to pay for this home than settle for something else that we don't really want. That does not make us slaves to the mortgage though. It means we are willing to work hard to make our dreams become reality. There is a difference.

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Visit my blog at; http://songsfromthehearth.blogspot.c...-insecure.html
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With regards to the insurance issue, doing without insurance just isn't for everyone. We would have been wiped out 100 times over if it were not for insurance. Illnesses and diseases do exist that have nothing to do with not taking care of yourself or maintaining a healthy lifestyle. Even the most healthy people get cancer, brain disorders, strokes, arthritis, MS, etc.

For instance, in my circumstances, my medication alone is over $500 a month without insurance; medical bills have amounted to over $50,000 on several consecutive years. Insurance for us, has been our best investment!

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"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

glad it worked for you. Wouldn't for those who can't afford it though. I don't know how to get that into peoples heads..

no $$ = no insurance.. donesn't matter the outcome..

death is always better than indebtedness and servitude.. IMHO.

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"Let the beauty we love, be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." Rumi

That is not necessarily a true statement pcdreams..and death is nothing to take lightly. If you can't afford medical insurance because of circumstances beyond your control..that is understandable. But if you can't afford medical insurance simply because you choose to not have to pay for it..then perhaps something is wrong with the attitude.

For those who like to hear themselves claim "I'd rather die first"..you have no idea! The WILL to live is very strong..I have had very close family make a comment that they'd die before they have surgury..or die before they do Chemo-therapy. But you know what..when death became almost inevitable if they didn't try some kind of medical procedure..they choose to at least try. When it came right down to the actual situation..they just couldn't allow themselves to actually die before giving it a good fight. The WILL to live is VERY strong.

Every town..every hospital..every doctor..probably every family..has stories about people who suffered an unexpected illness and/or injury. It happens all the time..everywhere..in all walks of life. They make TV shows of such things..they make movies..there are countless books people have written.

In my opinion..people who make outlandish claims about 'dying first' are basically selfish individuals..and probably they just love to hear themselves talk. What about if a child has a brain tumor? What if a child gets stepped on by a cow and breaks a leg..or swallows some kind of poison..or pokes out an eye..or suddenly suffers of a rare disorder of some kind? It happens all the time.
I find it irresponsibile of those who so easily exclaim they'll just die of natural causes..HOW DO THEY KNOW? People do not just up and say.."Oh never mind with the bypass surgury..I think I'd rather just die". Or.."Oh don't do surgury on my 4-year old son..we don't have insurance and we'd rather he die first". THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE..AND ITS JUST PLAIN STUPID!


Oh yes..some of you are RIGHT..medical insurance is NOT an absolute requirement..but some of us choose to take advantage of the medical insurance when it is offered rather than play russian roulette with the health and well-being of our loved ones. Why should anyone begrudge us for that?

There are way too many people who do not take advantage of health insurance..and then something happens they weren't expecting..and we all end up footing the bill. Too many dead-beats out there who could care less about whether they have health insurance or not..and ultimately they become ill or get injured.and they then can't pay their bills..so they contribute to higher medical costs for everyone else..and really..their selfish attitude is a problem.

Yes..it was! Thanks for noticing.

[QUOTE=Qwispea] If you can't afford medical insurance because of circumstances beyond your control..that is understandable. But if you can't afford medical insurance simply because you choose to not have to pay for it..then perhaps something is wrong with the attitude.
[\QUOTE]

This is about the only part of your statment I can agree to.. I am in the former group.. Though I don't feel my thoughts would be much different If I could afford it..

See to me money is a block to everything.. You can live a happy, healthy life.. or you can simply exist.. being a drone/slave whatever you wish to call it to all the bills you incure.. To me insurance is one of these bills.

Unfortunatly, I see healthcare becoming manditory like auto insurance is now. Which means we will see far more folks that are homeless (can't pay the mortage because the insurance is sucking the $$).. And thats sad..

It is indeed a sad world when our govt can dictate the "neccessities" that we must have... And bankrupts its citizens as well as itself in the process. But I digress thats another thread.

As for dying.. Who cares.. Each of us is just another cog in the big wheel.. I have no quelm about signing anything saying if I'm dying then Do NOT ressucitate (sp).. I try and live each day as if it were my last.. And thats good as any of us can do..

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"Let the beauty we love, be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." Rumi

A LOT of people care pcdreams..people donate healthy organs so that others might live.

There is a HUGE difference between refusing life-support vs. refusing medical treatment. A very young girl in our area had a foot accidently amputated this spring from a lawn mower. The child could have died without medical attention. Surely the medical treatment after that unfortunate accident saved her life. And just as surely..the medical treatment was expensive.

I highly doubt you'd want to be the parent who says to the doctor "..Oh hey Doc..never mind with treating my young daughter amputated foot..as we can't afford the medical costs..so our decision is to just let her die."

you're right about that.. But then If I didn't have/couldn't afford it for a child, I most likely wouldn't have had that child in the first place..

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"Let the beauty we love, be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." Rumi

I freely admit not having read all the posts, what with the baby sick. But I do have to say that I think qwispea is generally on the right track, but pcdreams makes some sense, also. I absolutely see red when someone tells me they are "self employed" or "own a small business" and therefore cannot afford medical insurance. UH, EXCUSE ME, but what you are then is underemployed or undercapitalized. And if you cannot afford auto insurance, you cannot afford an auto, plain and simple. Gamble with your own money if you so choose, but not with mine.

As to homesteaders on the dole, they will be unless they have a job off site and pay into social insecurity, or are saving for old age, or die young, or are very successful entrepreneurs building up a viable business to support them in old age. Buying a few acres, throwing up a shack, and playing Ma and Pa Ingalls rather than work for pay is not homesteading, it is shirking the responsibility to provide for yourself. Now, having said that, I see no reason to chase a job 60-80 hrs per week just for more money. One well laid out, well built homestead, and even one minimum wage job if it offers the chance to buy health insurance and a pension or 401k (yes, there are lots of those around) can afford the good life to a reasonable sized family.

So why get caught up in either/or thinking? For most of us, a more realistic scenario is to find and work the homestead WHILE working a job for at least part of our adult years.

I have no desire to argue with anyone personally; however, I cannot in good conscience allow the following statements to go unchallenged. They represent a person chastising other people for their personal decisions – decisions that do not involve the critic in any way. The identity of the people involved is of no concern to me.

His/her statements are in black and my responses are in blue.

That is not necessarily a true statement pcdreams..and death is nothing to take lightly.

There is nothing that indicates to me that anyone posting in this thread takes death lightly. It does not seem ethical suggest that another person is taking death lightly without firm evidence.

If you can't afford medical insurance because of circumstances beyond your control..that is understandable. But if you can't afford medical insurance simply because you choose to not have to pay for it..then perhaps something is wrong with the attitude.

Who is qualified to determine whether someone else’s attitude is “wrong” or when another person’s decisions are “understandable”?

For those who like to hear themselves claim "I'd rather die first"..you have no idea!

And exactly who does have the “idea”? Who is qualified to speak as an authority and declare that others are wrong?

The WILL to live is very strong..I have had very close family make a comment that they'd die before they have surgury..or die before they do Chemo-therapy. But you know what..when death became almost inevitable if they didn't try some kind of medical procedure..they choose to at least try. When it came right down to the actual situation..they just couldn't allow themselves to actually die before giving it a good fight. The WILL to live is VERY strong.

Thirty thousand recorded suicides per year in the US is some indication that the will to live is not all-powerful and, therefore, that this argument is weak. In some people the will to live is strong. In others it is evidently not.

Every town..every hospital..every doctor..probably every family..has stories about people who suffered an unexpected illness and/or injury. It happens all the time..everywhere..in all walks of life. They make TV shows of such things..they make movies..there are countless books people have written.

Illness and injury are TYPICALLY unexpected. What is the point? Drama appeals to many people. What is the point?

In my opinion..people who make outlandish claims about 'dying first'

What makes them "outlandish" claims?

are basically selfish individuals..and probably they just love to hear themselves talk.

Is the speaker free from those characteristics as one should be when criticizing them in others?

What about if a child has a brain tumor? What if a child gets stepped on by a cow and breaks a leg..or swallows some kind of poison..or pokes out an eye..or suddenly suffers of a rare disorder of some kind? It happens all the time.

“What if” scenarios can be imagined for any situation. If one protects against every “what if” that someone else can imagine they will do little else in life but put up defenses. Insurers and politicians endorse and encourage that attitude.

I find it irresponsibile of those who so easily exclaim they'll just die of natural causes..HOW DO THEY KNOW?

There are situations in which a person can be relatively sure they will die of natural causes. Terminal cases of disease are an example of when people can be relatively sure that they will die of a natural cause (unless accident or suicide takes them first).

It seems as though there are two possibilities – natural causes and unnatural causes. If one doesn’t get us the other one will. What difference does it make to the dead person?

People do not just up and say.."Oh never mind with the bypass surgury..I think I'd rather just die". Or.."Oh don't do surgury on my 4-year old son..we don't have insurance and we'd rather he die first". THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE..AND ITS JUST PLAIN STUPID!

A “do not resuscitate” order, signed by the individual, is their instruction to medical personnel to NOT attempt to revive them with life support systems. It is a choice that is made by many people. Is everyone who makes that instruction STUPID?

Optioning out of surgery, chemotherapy, radiation or other medical procedures is NOT unknown or even uncommon. Is everyone who does so stupid? Who is qualified to emotionally, in all caps, call another person stupid?

Oh yes..some of you are RIGHT..medical insurance is NOT an absolute requirement..but some of us choose to take advantage of the medical insurance when it is offered rather than play russian roulette with the health and well-being of our loved ones. Why should anyone begrudge us for that?

No one should begrudge those who have insurance (and I see no sign of that happening in this thread).

AND, those who have insurance should not begrudge or criticize those who do not (I do see indication of this).

There are way too many people who do not take advantage of health insurance..and then something happens they weren't expecting..and we all end up footing the bill.

One does not “take advantage of health insurance” – one buys it in one way or another. Those who wish to purchase have every right to purchase and those who do not wish to purchase have equal right to not purchase.

Some people choose to not devote the required hours of their life to the purchase of insurance. Others choose to work until Medicaid age or some other milestone in order to be assured of insurance.

Who is qualified to determine which is the “right” course of action for another person?

Too many dead-beats

Who qualifies as a “deadbeat” and by whose standards?

out there who could care less about whether they have health insurance or not..and ultimately they become ill or get injured.and they then can't pay their bills..so they contribute to higher medical costs for everyone else..and really..their selfish attitude is a problem.

High medical costs cannot be attributed to “deadbeats”. Medical costs are high for a number of reasons. An argument can be made that HAVING insurance contributes to high medical costs because the patient doesn’t care what anything costs since another party is paying the bill. Think about that a moment.

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Whether you believe you can or you believe you cannot – you are usually right.

This does not include flying or moving mountains unassisted or attempting to prove the existence of an “afterlife”.

Bill Gates has no trust inthe USA Dollar. So why should we?

What has that to do with this? A few post back it was mentioned that a large nest egg may help get through the upcoming upheavel. I think not. Cash used to be king now Gold rules. But as to Government roles. If you have a SS card your already on the role, when will they claim you? Soon, Very Soon

Kenneth

OH? No desire to argue Obser? Then what do you call it? There are several others who have posted almost exactly the same opinions as mine..so why do you overwhelmingly attack just my comments???????? ??????? ????????

I guess you're entitled to your opinions..but hey..do everyone a favor and spread them out a bit..will ya? Otherwise your denials simply do not ring true.

oh quit yer whining.. You're just mad cause he called you out... If you can't handle it then don't dish it out..

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"Let the beauty we love, be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." Rumi

The problem with not having health insurance for most people is that the tax payers of this country will have to pay you or your family's medical bills. The only way not having health insurance works is if you save your own cash in a medical savings account and rely on that to take care of your medical expenses. You can also become a hermit with no spouse, and no children, and be willing to just stay home and die should you become ill. However, because I value life over money, I couldn't ever choose that option. So, if you don't fit in the savings account or the hermit pigeon holes, you will eventually be on the dole without health insurance. A child gets sick, (forget the brain tumor, let's talk croup, a familiar childhood illness). That child will suffer horribly without proper medical care, and could easily die. This is not a "what if" scenario for any child, it is a "when if" scenario. Do you sit idley by and watch that child suffer? If you say that you simply choose not to have children because you cannot afford health insurance, then do you choose not to have a spouse either? If not, then put yourself in the hermit category and this won't apply to you.
But putting death aside, what about less deadly but equally dibilatating diseases? Things that could be long and drawn out without proper medical care. Are you willing to simply suffer for years before you die? How about a stroke that leaves you paralized but doesn't kill you? How will you pay for those medical expenses? How about an accident that breaks your leg. You just going to let that heal however it wants to rather than get it fixed properly? Just going to endure the agonizing pain?
You know, I find that folks who can't afford health insurance find money for other things when they want it. If their car breaks down, they find the money to fix it, they find the money to keep the power on, the internet on, the t.v. on,etc. I'd go without a computer, internet, cell phone, television, eating out, buying new clothes, etc. if I had to in order to afford health insurance. I'd get a second, part time job to afford health insurance. I'd do whatever it took.

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Visit my blog at; http://songsfromthehearth.blogspot.c...-insecure.html
Our website is www.thequeensblessing.com