Thomas Jefferson

copperhead51 · #41 03/31/06, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FolioMark

CopperHead: Thank you for posting the article by Mr. Herbert Barger. I found it most interesting and will have to admit that the scientific evidence certainly isnt conclusive. And Mr Barger does make a strong case for Randolph Jefferson.
However, on the same hand, there is no conclusive proof one way or the other and I cant help but think that where there is smoke there may be fire. What disturbs me most about the whole Hemmings matter is that in this day and age, the possibility that Thomas Jefferson, a white planter, may have had an intimate and loving relationship with a black slave woman, should be a matter of such vehement and in many instances acrimonious debate. In Jefferson's day, it was certainly a controversial subject, but it troubles me that now a days, so many people seem to take "offense" that Mr Jefferson may have crossed the color line. I dont see that it diminishes Mr Jefferson in any way. If the affair did occur, I cant imagine it was anything but consensual, despite the slave/master dynamic. I cant see Jefferson forcing or seducing an underage girl. If anything it adds another facet to his personality and illustrates many of the conflicts between his acts and his thoughts. Another example of Head and Heart I suppose. To my mind, it really doesnt matter at all. Its an historical curiosity, but isnt any more important than wether he put his pants on left leg or right leg first or preferred sugar or lemon in his tea. Mr Jefferson is still the greatest president and mind this country has ever produced.

As an aside, I was really surprised the first time I visited Monticello and discovered its rather intimate scale. Americans tend to view our national monuments as being colossal in scale, Washington DC being the prime example. I was truely touched to see that Monticello wasnt really as grand as I had imagined it from photographs. The ceilings in the family rooms are quite low and even the public rooms are certainly humanly scaled. Its a very liveable house even from a modern standpoint and its no surprise that its had such an influence on american architecture. The house at Poplar Forest is even more intimately scaled. Its been years since I was there and I would love to go back and see it now that the restoration has gone forward. The year I visited, they had just begun the work on the roof. Ive been interested in all things Jefferson since my college days when my thesis professor first introduced me to Jeffersons architectural work.

Thanks again for the Barger article.

What annoys me greatly is how the media does it's level best to tear down our Founding Fathers or anything American. For some reason, we are supposed to feel guilty about, with God's providence, creating a great nation. And to compound matters, we are white!
I agree about Monticello; however, in it's day, it was grand. The same thing can be said for Mt. Vernon or Greenlawn. It's a free country, but does joe sixpack REALLY need that five car garage and the house note that goes with it?

tinknal · #42 03/31/06, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperhead51

What annoys me greatly is how the media does it's level best to tear down our Founding Fathers or anything American. For some reason, we are supposed to feel guilty about, with God's providence, creating a great nation. And to compound matters, we are white!
I agree about Monticello; however, in it's day, it was grand. The same thing can be said for Mt. Vernon or Greenlawn. It's a free country, but does joe sixpack REALLY need that five car garage and the house note that goes with it?

copperhead, why is it so hard to acknowledge that your heros are Human?

FolioMark · #43 03/31/06, 05:54 PM

My point exactly Tinknal. I dont think most people see the Hemmings affair as tearing down Jeffersons reputation at all. Or any of the founding fathers. Granted some of the media may have reported it with a bit of a sneer, but I dont think the general run of american finds it all that disturbing that Our Founding Fathers were human.

Copperhead: Yes in Jeffersons day Monticello was quite grand to the american eye but compared to its Italian Palladian forebears or its English cousins its fairly modest in scale. I think thats what makes it so endearing.

Qwispea · #44 03/31/06, 06:10 PM

Everybody has fault's..everybody has skeletons. Some get revealed..some go to the grave.

copperhead51 · #45 03/31/06, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

copperhead, why is it so hard to acknowledge that your heros are Human?

I... I... just don't know... <tears flowing down cheeks>

Actually, my question is, why do people have to fabricate information about my heros? The DNA linked a plethora of people to Hemmings. People then make the jump that it was Thomas Jefferson. Why do you think that it is okay to saddle him with this?

tinknal · #46 03/31/06, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperhead51

I... I... just don't know... <tears flowing down cheeks>

Actually, my question is, why do people have to fabricate information about my heros? The DNA linked a plethora of people to Hemmings. People then make the jump that it was Thomas Jefferson. Why do you think that it is okay to saddle him with this?

"saddle" him with what? That he had a Mistress? That he had a BLACK mistress? Not all love storys follow your standard of perfection.

copperhead51 · #47 03/31/06, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

"saddle" him with what? That he had a Mistress? That he had a BLACK mistress? Not all love storys follow your standard of perfection.

Yes, exactly, there is NO proof that he had a "BLACK" mistress.

tinknal · #48 03/31/06, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperhead51

Yes, exactly, there is NO proof that he had a "BLACK" mistress.

Ahhh, so it's the racial aspect that offends you. Why?

copperhead51 · #49 03/31/06, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

Ahhh, so it's the racial aspect that offends you. Why?

I quoted you.

tinknal · #50 03/31/06, 07:49 PM

I'm just quoting accepted history. Your the one with bunches in yer undies.

Marilyn in CO · #51 04/01/06, 10:30 AM

Thank goodness for decency codes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I vowed when my Dishnetwork went to $50 for basic service, I'm done. I will miss HGTV & Foodnetwork but darn, I have better things for that $50.

As far as Thomas Jefferson goes, he was a good statesman with flaws, everyone has them and God can use us anyway to form a country or whatever. Remember David in the Bible, he had some real issues, we can learn from them.

Carry on, interesting thread and I can sure tell who are the youngsters on here.LOL

ET1 SS · #52 04/01/06, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperhead51

Yes, exactly, there is NO proof that he had a "BLACK" mistress.

http://www.monticello.org/plantation...on_contro.html

Quote:

That a Jefferson-Hemings relationship could be neither refuted nor substantiated was challenged in 1998 by the results of DNA tests conducted by Dr. Eugene Foster and a team of geneticists. The study - which tested Y-chromosomal DNA samples from male-line descendants of Field Jefferson (Thomas Jefferson's uncle), John Carr (grandfather of Jefferson's Carr nephews), Eston Hemings, and Thomas C. Woodson - indicated a genetic link between the Jefferson and Hemings descendants. The results of the study established that an individual carrying the male Jefferson Y chromosome fathered Eston Hemings (born 1808), the last known child born to Sally Hemings. There were approximately 25 adult male Jeffersons who carried this chromosome living in Virginia at that time, and a few of them are known to have visited Monticello. The study's authors, however, said "the simplest and most probable" conclusion was that Thomas Jefferson had fathered Eston Hemings.

While Thomas Jefferson's paternity of one or more of Sally Hemings' children cannot be established with absolute certainty, and there are noticeable gaps in the historical record, many elements are widely accepted. Among these are:

Sally Hemings (1773-1835) was a slave at Monticello; she lived in Paris with Jefferson and two of his daughters from 1787 to 1789; and she had at least six children.

Sally Hemings' duties included being a nursemaid-companion to Thomas Jefferson's daughter Maria (c. 1784-1787), lady's maid to daughters Martha and Maria (1787-1797), and chambermaid and seamstress (1790s-1827).

There are no known images of Sally Hemings and only four known descriptions of her appearance or demeanor.

Sally Hemings left no known written accounts. It is not known if she was literate.

In the few scattered references to Sally Hemings in Thomas Jefferson's records and correspondence, there is nothing to distinguish her from other members of her family.

Thomas Jefferson was at Monticello at the likely conception times of Sally Hemings' six known children. There are no records suggesting that she was elsewhere at these times, or records of any births at times that would exclude Jefferson paternity.

There are no indications in contemporary accounts by people familiar with Monticello that Sally Hemings' children had different fathers.

Sally Hemings' children were light-skinned, and three of them (daughter Harriet and sons Beverly and Eston) lived as members of white society as adults.

According to contemporary accounts, some of Sally Hemings' children strongly resembled Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson freed all of Sally Hemings' children: Beverly and Harriet were allowed to leave Monticello in 1822; Madison and Eston were released in Jefferson's 1826 will. Jefferson gave freedom to no other nuclear slave family.

Thomas Jefferson did not free Sally Hemings. She was permitted to leave Monticello by his daughter Martha Jefferson Randolph not long after Jefferson's death in 1826, and went to live with her sons Madison and Eston in Charlottesville.

Several people close to Thomas Jefferson or the Monticello community believed that he was the father of Sally Hemings' children.

Eston Hemings changed his name to Eston Hemings Jefferson in 1852.

Madison Hemings stated in 1873 that he and his siblings Beverly, Harriet, and Eston were Thomas Jefferson's children.

The descendants of Madison Hemings who have lived as African-Americans have passed a family history of descent from Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings down through the generations.

Eston Hemings' descendants, who have lived as whites, have passed down a family history of being related to Thomas Jefferson. In the 1940s, family members changed this history to state that an uncle of Jefferson's, rather than Jefferson himself, was their ancestor.

Among the unresolved matters is the genealogy of Sally Hemings. According to Madison Hemings, Sally's mother, Elizabeth Hemings (1735-1807), was the daughter of an African woman and an English sea captain. By Madison's and other accounts, Sally Hemings and some of her siblings were the children of John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law. If so, Sally Hemings would have been the half-sister of Jefferson's wife, Martha Wayles Jefferson (1748-1782). Elizabeth Hemings and her children lived at John Wayles' plantation during his lifetime, but there are no documentary records relating to Wayles' possible paternity of any Hemings children.

copperhead51 · #53 04/01/06, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

http://www.monticello.org/plantation...on_contro.html

Yes, I have read that and like the article says, it couldn't be established that it was Thomas Jefferson. Other historians, like the link I posted believe it was his kin. It's actually that simple. It couldn't be proven in the 1700s and it can't be proven now.

sue currin · #54 04/01/06, 10:10 PM

Had a person who worked for me for a week, that had gone through the 12th grade in Ga tell me that Robert E Lee was the Presdent during the civil war. History is up for grabs in most cases, it does depend on the person's intrest and who wins always writes history.

Thatch · #55 04/02/06, 03:28 AM

Yes it is and some of the worst "historians" are the historic attractions themselves. You've got a product that doesn't normally change, you're competing against modern entertainment dollars (and attention spans) and many of these places have discovered that salacious stories bring visitors. Throw in a lil sex, some intruige and perhaps a multi-cultural spin and bingo you've got a 15% increase in visitor traffic. To hell with the truth, plausible is good enough.

Now this isn't to say that there aren't a number of "hidden" stories out there or that even this particular one about TJ and the slave (wasn't that a bad 70's Tv show?) aren't true. It is to say that just because "x" says it's so doesn't mean it is and that there are a tremendous number of people that would love to have thier pet issue be somehow validated or proven by stappling it onto a well respected figure.

Now for me, it doesn't matter about TJ. He did or he didn't , what his private life was means next to nothing. What he accomplished means so much. i don't much care if he ran about the grounds of monticello killing humming birds with croquet mallets it wouldn't change my opinion of the man and his accomplishments.

J

honeydays · #56 04/14/06, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionjessica

Just watching a show called -------- by Penn & Teller about profanity, and how the government allows the FCC to take away one of our most basic rights (that of free speech) because of decency codes passed for broadcasts. Found this quote interesting:

"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." -Thomas Jefferson

Has anyone else watched their shows? They are very good at digging around and sniffing out liars, cheats, fakes, and scams. If you recycle... they did a good show on recycling that you should watch. Other topics include things like AA, endangered species, gun control, circumcision, alternative medicine, traditional families, the best, PETA, hypnosis... etc. I'd be happy to send anyone a copy of one of their shows for free if y'all can't find it at a local Blockbuster or other movie store. It's good stuff to think on.

I took your advice and ordered the P&T DVD from Netflix. I'm really enjoying it, thanks for the recommendation!