Un-lawful possession of laying hens

So we need Govt. Smackdowns, permits, permission, tracking, regulation, interferance, oversight, taxes, liscensing, quotas, bans, subsidies, and controls. We are absolutely pathetically helpless to make decisions or be considerate of our neighbors or our enviroment.

Govt. Smackdowns, permits, permission, tracking, regulation, interferance, oversight, taxes, liscensing, quotas, bans, subsidies, and controls, will Surely prevent bird flu.

Govt. Smackdowns, permits, permission, tracking, regulation, interferance, oversight, taxes, liscensing, quotas, bans, subsidies, and controls will make the world happy and safe and prosperous for all.

You've convinced me....I've seen the light....I'm writing my Local, State and Federal Representatives and asking them to immediately impose more Govt. Smackdowns, permits, permission, tracking, regulation, interferance, oversight, taxes, liscensing, quotas, bans, subsidies, and controls.

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"The most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." - Sir Isaac Newton
(A REAL scientist)

tsdave, i hear ya.....but on the other hand, I'm not so foolish as to expect my chicken-farming neighbour to care more for my health than making a few extra bucks on the sly. Some people will take as much as they can if they think they can get away with it---perhaps what this guy in question was doing.

I think it is very naive to expect that ALL of the general farming public will be willing or capable of regulating themselves properly: ie, control disease adequately (and not just 'overlook' it), sell eggs graded properly, etc. Now, if they know they have to be accountable to someone, that's a different story. If a farmer has a large enough 'henhouse' to be supplying grocery stores, then there should be some accountability there.

Better that than the stores just buying eggs 'from anyone' and hoping that all is well......Once people start dying from diseased eggs/chicken, then of course the story would be different. The public will say, "Why didn't you DO something when you could have?"

DD

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."

True enough, but then my personal take on it is that it's the public's responsibility to purchase wisely. Or raise your own.

I guess I'm just for personal accountability. I think we, as a society, ought to spend more time worrying about what we're eating than who's in the final four, or how in the world George Mason made it. (Some people are scratching their heads asking who GM is, and what the final four is all about ) But instead we're obsessed with our toys and expect the government to be our Daddy and take care of us.

I hope that I don't raise my children to be dependent upon me the way the government wants me to depend on it.

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Mustang Diaries

"It's called a lance...hellooo!"

There are a number of countries in the pacific I have been to and probably also in South America that are more free than the USA I widh someone woudl do a comparison I know in Ecuador you can buy a hand gun over the counter at th ehardware store with out a back ground check wait e.c.t. I am sure you can sell your raw milk and canned or baked goods at their farmers markets as well, and not have NAIS worries or real -id worries just like most countries outside the good ol land of the free that is rapidly turning into a police state and Orwells worst nightmare.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

Last I checked I could not sell pies and even canned goods in the USA unless they were made in a 10,000 USDA approved and inspected kitchen. Maybe Canada is not as bad as I thought.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

How many people have died of diseased eggs they bought from a small farmer? How long did people eat eggs that were not "graded" and not have any problems? This is INSANE I wish their was a parrellel planet/society for people that are for government control. Maybe we could send them all back to England and France write those countries off and keep America free? Or freedom loving people could write off America and we could all band together and buy some huge land area that is not inhabited down in south america and live autonomously with in a larger country similar to the mennonites in Brazil and belize.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

DD as far as church suppers go the health unit has only spelled out the letter of the law it's expected to enforce and (at our town hall meeting) replied that so long as they received no complaints there would be no action from thier office. There's an awful lot of media hype on this issue too. Farmers markets are different and there are new laws regarding food prep there but it isn't law yet and from what I've seen its not going to affect farmers' markets much at all. Again it will be complaint driven not a witch hunt. One thing left out of the new regs last I read was traceability in labling, which is a great idea and hopefully it will be added. I may be able to find the draft proposal for farmers' markets regulations in WORD format if you're interested.

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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup........

That was my expericene in latin america. Plus you could and still can by your medicines without out permission from the governement by way of a doctor's say so.

The Story continues:

Landowners allege animal cruelty

By DEREK ABMA

Staff Writer


PRESCOTT -- Landowners' rights activists went to the Prescott OPP office on Tuesday to demand that several agencies be investigated for cruelty to animals.

The group's allegations go back to the raid of a Shanly egg farm on March 23, which the owner said resulted in the deaths of about 800 chickens.

About 50 members of landowners associations from Leeds and Grenville, Lanark and rural Ottawa showed up at the police station.

Agencies the group wants investigated include the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), the Egg Farmers of Ontario marketing board, the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (OSPCA) and the OPP itself.


Randy Hillier, president of the Ontario Landowners Association and the local Lanark branch, said the CFIA and egg marketing board need to be investigated for the way they packed up the chickens they were attempting to confiscate from the farm of Shawn Carmichael.


"Hundreds and hundreds died before they even finished loading the chickens into the trailer," Hillier said. "Hundreds more had broke legs, broken wings."

He said the landowners, who blocked inspectors from exiting the property that day, cannot be blamed for chickens dying or being hurt because the damage was done well before the agency officials were ready to leave.

Sergeant Kristine Rae of the OPP said an investigation was ongoing into the actions of those who protested at the Carmichael farm that day, but no charges have been laid.

Hillier said the OPP's actions need to be reviewed because 27 officers were present to see the cruelty but they did nothing to stop it.




He added that the OSPCA should be investigated because the agency was contacted on the day of the raid about cruelty to animals but did not respond.


Landowners gathered in the McDonald's restaurant parking lot across from the OPP station at mid-morning Tuesday before approaching police with their demands.

Only about half the group could squeeze into the detachment lobby. And just Jacqueline Fennell, president of the Leeds and Grenville Landowners Association, was allowed beyond that point to talk to Inspector Brent Hill, Grenville County's OPP commander.


Hill later came to the lobby and collected written statements from the group and other evidence, such as pictures saved on CDs.


"We will investigate the allegations that are contained in these statements," Hill said.


Hillier had also demanded that officers' notebooks be turned over to the landowners' group to review what was recorded on the day of the farm raid.

"That's not going to happen," Hill said. "You can apply to the freedom of information."

Hill said the police may work in co-operation with the OSPCA, as it often does in cases of alleged animal cruelty.

However, he said he is unsure how to work around the fact one of the organizations the landowners asked to be investigated is the OSPCA.

He was also unclear how the OPP would investigate itself. He said it's not a matter that would involve the Special Investigations Unit (SIU), which looks into cases where incidents involving police result in human death or injury.

Hill, who attended the Carmichael farm on the day of the raid, added that he didn't think his officers were at fault.

"I can't see our people doing anything wrong," he said. "We didn't arrest anybody, we didn't fight anybody."

On Hillier's allegation that officers stood by while chickens were abused, Hill said: "Do you know how to handle chickens? Neither do we. We depend on the other agencies to do it."

The raid on the farm was related to allegations that Carmichael had more than 9,000 chickens while only permitted to have 100, was selling ungraded eggs and failed to pay licensing fees.

Harry Pelissero, general manager of Egg Farmers of Ontario, said his agency is preparing charges against Carmichael. He said it has up to 60 days from the March 23 raid to issue the charges.

He noted the deadline of 4:30 p.m. Tuesday before fines of up to $2,000 a day can be imposed, subject to the decision of a judge, for each day Carmichael refuses to turn over laying hens that weren't taken on the day of the raid.

As the deadline approached yesterday, Carmichael said he had no intention of relinquishing his hens.

On the landowners' request that his agency be investigated for cruelty to animals, Pelissero said, "We would certainly co-operate with any investigation."

Carmichael said the Leeds, Grenville and Lanark District Health Unit has recently removed eggs from his farm off store shelves in the region.

Jane Lyster, the health unit's director of health protection, said she was unaware of any removal of eggs from area stores.

***********************************************

Ok, I do think the landowners association has made some points re: the cruelty issue BUT I also have a problem with this comment in the above article: He said the landowners, who blocked inspectors from exiting the property that day, cannot be blamed for chickens dying or being hurt because the damage was done well before the agency officials were ready to leave.

Well, that's a bit of a turnaround on his part, considering that they were originally blaming the inspectors for not moving the vehicles and he stated that THAT was why the chickens died. Hmmm, musta changed his tune when people started saying to him, "Well if the chickens were in distress from sitting there (ie, from lack of air ventilation), why didn't you move your tractors that were ILLEGALLY blocking the transports?" Their group is not exactly blameless, IMO. Looks to me like he's trying to wash his hands.

And this: "We want the OPP to be investigated as well because they have the ultimate responsibility to uphold the Criminal Code of Canada," Hillier said.

Um, er, right you are! And maybe they'll pop your law-breaking sorry self into jail, too....for obstructing law officers? I can't believe this guy can go spouting off about how the CCC should be following the letter of the law and yet he broke it himself by his own actions? HUH? What a hippocrite!

ARGH! I must be feeling my wheaties today! I guess watching a bunch of grown men and women interpret the law to suit themselves---or to just overlook the law if it goes against their own beliefs is just a little silly.

And to think the police involved in all this were just doing their duty. Maybe next time they'll be less tolerant, and---to save the chickens' lives---just pull out the handcuffs and haul some anti-government marchers off to jail for obstruction? Oh yes, and then of course, the saviours of the cheating farmer will whine on and on their about being mistreated in jail and police brutality, etc, etc. And so, why are they not now channeling their energies into changing the laws they don't like, instead of breaking the ones that exist?

Ah, yes, the freedom to do what you want, when you want, the laws be darned. Sometimes I think we Canadians are way too polite for our own good!

DD

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."

Thanks for the updates DD I have been watching this thread as I knew it would come down to a spat LOL
here is a link that I found in Delaware

In Delaware http://www.delcode.state.de.us/title3/c035/

Maybe not as strict as the rules we have here in Canada but they are out there. Will look at more but have chores to do.

Why didnt they just inspect the farm like they would any other farm if they where so worried about "health issues"? Seems like a common sence answer to me!

Oh and why at the end of that article dd the farmer charmicheal I beleive say that his eggs had been pulled off the shelves of local grocery stores? I thought it was originally mantianed that he was selling to bakers and such?

I can see this from both sides and both sides make good points, that people should be informed if they are eating ungraded eggs, though for the life of me I cant understand why it would matter, when I crack open an egg I can tell if I need another because maybe that one was short. I realize that they might want to know if the hens and such werent inspected to make sure they wherent carrying diseases. But no mention was made of any one getting sick from these eggs, and I cant see local bakerys cracking open smelly eggs and baking with them when they eat those same baked goods themselves.

But I think i'm rehashing whats been said already! I'm with the farmer, and to take all his chickens! His livelihood, I woulndt blame the man one bit if he got a gun and locked up the gates and said to h#ll with you! To have that many chickens it had to have taken him quite a bit of time and effort to get that many, espeacially if he started with a few and bread up from there only adding new blood as needed, thats a lot of time effort and managment! And I think those bakers would have realised if those eggs where bad or weighed considerably less then they should have, why would they have payed for them if that was the case!

Those fines are equally ridiculus! Who else thinks they are trying to set an example with this guy!

[QUOTE=kenuchelover]Sorry, but the world is too dammed crowded for us to always live without permits. It's sad, but true.

So, just as CITIES often have good reasons for banning livestock within city limits (smell & crowing is one thing on an isolated farmstread, but another thing entirely when 100 neighbors can be living close enough to be impacted).

QUOTE]
I dissagree, You should travel a bit plenty of places in the world do just fine raising chickens and larger livestock in cities. I saw it in a lot of places and the people lived just fine, In egypt they even raise poultry on the roof tops of houses I hear. In a lot of places livestock and poultry is kept under the house it was that way in parts of Europe recently helps to keep you warm when you have all that animal body heat coming up. It is only recently with the advent of factory farms and auto's that people in cities gave up raising their food using animals for transportation. And many places in the world still live like we use too. Here in Kosovo I see a orchard planted around just about every house and a vegetable garden their are backyard hoop houses everywhere and I see a small flock of 5-30 chickens at almost everyhouse including cities/villages people still go thru the cities with horses and wagons infact something the soiliders have taken to calling a Kosovo harly is used a lot as well it is a walk behind tractor modified to tow a wagon I have seen them towing two cows and huge loads of everything suppose to get good mileage but cant go very fast they drive them everywhere it makes fro interesting driving when you have a tiller and a horse using the same roads that cars doing 60-70 miles an hour use. I think we ought to start using this type of transportation more in the USA maybe it would slow people down a bit.

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marching to the beat of a different drummer

Well, I was actually going to post some of the laws in regards to "farmers markets" but they are hard to find. From what I could determine, since there are no specific laws for them, farmers markets and such fall under general food laws---that means labelling, separate kitchen for preparing, location inspections, etc. But in reality, they generally consider it a gray area. There are two camps: those that want to remain separate and those who want strict laws.

I actually searched this topic twice and each time for whatever reason, I lost my data or just ran out of time! LOL When I have an evening to search through the massive Canadian health sites, I'll post it here. What I really wanted was the local fight story between the health unit and the farmers (where they actually had a petition going and a demonstration), but there is very little info on that online. The local papers archives don't go back that far, sadly. I'll keep looking.

DD

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."

Because he wouldn't let them in, from what I hear. That's why they had to get a warrant, hence the police officers, etc.

Yes, interesting indeed! Selling to stores is a way more serious charge. Perhaps he was selling on the sly then? Must have been mostly to small corner stores or something, 'cause the larger places like WalMart buy from big companies (partially due to health concerns). And I don't recall having seen any 'generic' eggs on store shelves in the bigger stores that aren't from large distribution places.

It matters because most people want to get what they've paid for, not to be cheated. A large bakery or such would lose a lot more if they're buying in larger amounts than your average family. That could really add up. And bakeries don't have the time or equipment to grade eggs to determine if they are getting burned or not. Nor should they be expected to inspect for disease. It's a given that they should get what they paid for: clean, fresh, properly-weighted eggs.

Technically, bakers can use B grade eggs. That means they can have X amount of poop on the shell. As far as I know, this law has not changed, but if it has, someone can correct me on that. Rotten and dirty/stained eggs are two different things. Rotten is garbage, dirty and stained eggs ARE sold for use (ie, dogfood). And an egg that has salmonella on it or in it (cracks)doesn't necessarily look or smell bad. As for not getting sick, lots of people with food poisoning have such a small reaction (such as diarrhea/vomiting) they might not even know it. They might attribute it to the intestinal flu.

I hope it didn't seem like I was picking on you, for quoting your post so much. I just wanted to reply to some of your comments!

DD

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."