Mark's NAIS Odyssey

papaw · #41 12/21/05, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkSykes

Please see the above response to reluctantpatriot, near the bottom, with respect to being upset.

I wasn't quite able to catch how you had reasoned out your last post and I'm missing it again here. With what about NAIS do you have an issue? If possible, include links or references to the NAIS Draft Strategic Plan so that "homesteaders" like myself can understand your disquiet.

I'm with you here; I wish more people would treat the subject seriously and thoughtfully.

Well, my post was just put to the masses and not to any ONE specific person ... AND ....this belongs in GC; but what I would like to know is how you or others think the tracking of all of our animals, unless of course we have 500 or more, is safe for the country? What benefit is gained by it? Why should a person with a few hens have to comply with the numbering of them when people with 10,000 in a chicken house don't have to do anything? Why should I have to report the death of a hen when a house might loose 1,000 with no paper work expected?

Can you really say this isn't about the tax dollars or forcing people to buy ALL their meat? Can you defend it in a way that will make me believe the whole scam isn't meant to put the little guy out of business? Do you really think the lobbyists in Washington can supply better food than you can produce with your own hands?

I know I'm hard to follow sometimes and this will be my last post here in this thread, but I believe the government has far too much more to worry about like health care and getting us out of Iraq that forcing us to register our chickens and goats.

MarkSykes · #42 12/21/05, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

It doesn't surprise me at all that some people think that NAIS is so wonderful.

That, of course, doesn't include me. Please see the previous posts; it's a hassle, but here it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

Just like having to have a license, fee or permit for anything else, even planning and zoning codes and ordinances, it is about giving up freedom and liberty for government control.

Here is probably a difference you and I have in working definitions of government control. No aspect of kidding this March, getting more day-old chicks in April or May or building a buck barn has changed. A difference which is makes no difference is no difference at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

If someone wishes to be the guinea pig to prove a point, that is fine. However, I already know it is a bad idea which will make things worse rather than better. I expect that for the moment nothing "bad" will happen, much like pre-WW II Germany with Hitler and the Jews. In time the evil will come, incrementally, as it has always done.

Once again, you've provided an example from a different country under a different political system from sixty+ years ago. Let's get more relevant: For longer than sixty years we've had numbers attached to cars, business and even people (the social security number). Where are the resultant concentration camps? (That's not out-of-bounds sarcasm; you raised the spectre of Nazi Germany, after all).

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

The few actual bad folks who intentionally do wrong or the few small events that happen will be used to club the rest of the nation into submission "for their own good."

Is that not the nature of everything? It's for the small number of thieves that I lock my door at night. It's for the single occasional weasel that I lock the hen house. It's for the few disreputable breaders that three of my goats have CAE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

I only register my car and have a drivers license because the alternative of driving without either is not worth it right now, not because I willingly do so. I prefer unregistered and unlicensed everything. It is not the item, device, location or other quality that makes things dangerous, rather the intent of the person wielding them.

As a side note, I don't live anywhere that the post office will deliver mail and I am not on any of their maps. Even forcing me at gunpoint to register my homestead would be pointless. I will not comply, I will never comply. If it takes feeding the coyotes and buzzards and giving the goobers fitful, sleepless nights, so be it.

Here's where I'm missing whatever subtle distinction you make between registering a car and getting a NAIS number. One you object to, you're unwilling, and you do it; the other you object to, you're unwilling and you imply you're ready to die in order to avoid.

I do not wish a circumstance to precipitate that makes you back up your word, but just as a relatively disinterested bystander can I suggest you learn to pick your battles? You property already has some plot number in some dusty file somewhere. That's just like an NAIS number; a string of characters associated with a physical location. Can you help me understand
how that doesn't violate your sense of whatever? Has your plat number limnited your freedoms any? How?

MarkSykes · #43 12/21/05, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papaw

Well, my post was just put to the masses and not to any ONE specific person ... AND ....this belongs in GC; but what I would like to know is how you or others think the tracking of all of our animals, unless of course we have 500 or more, is safe for the country? What benefit is gained by it? Why should a person with a few hens have to comply with the numbering of them when people with 10,000 in a chicken house don't have to do anything? Why should I have to report the death of a hen when a house might loose 1,000 with no paper work expected?

Nope, I can't. I'm relating to the board about my experiences upon registering for a NAIS site number.

Quote:

Originally Posted by papaw

Can you really say this isn't about the tax dollars or forcing people to buy ALL their meat? Can you defend it in a way that will make me believe the whole scam isn't meant to put the little guy out of business? Do you really think the lobbyists in Washington can supply better food than you can produce with your own hands?

I honestly don't see how you get from [register with NAIS] to [buy all your meat]. It has the same inconprehensibility to me as [get a license plate for your car] to [ride only buses] or [get a social security number] to [abandon all 401K plans] or [get a government-issued radio license] to [only transmit what the government wants you to]. I wish I could see what it is you're seeing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by papaw

I know I'm hard to follow sometimes and this will be my last post here in this thread, but I believe the government has far too much more to worry about like health care and getting us out of Iraq that forcing us to register our chickens and goats.

Well, we have the longest lifespans of any time in our country and we need to finish WWII and get out of Germany first, so perhaps things are going pretty well after all.

Thank you for your dialog.

tnborn · #44 12/21/05, 01:20 PM

Hey I'm not selling meat to restaurants so why should I register? Nor I am selling poultry to restaurants nor grocery stores. So, why should I register.

My livestock is for my own use. So, why should I register?Somebody please explain this craziness to me.
tnborn

reluctantpatriot · #45 12/21/05, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnborn

Hey I'm not selling meat to restaurants so why should I register? Nor I am selling poultry to restaurants nor grocery stores. So, why should I register.

My livestock is for my own use. So, why should I register?Somebody please explain this craziness to me.
tnborn

It's ok Tnborn. Your confusion is not lost on me. I ask the same questions and then people like Mike keep telling me it is all in my head, that there is no problem.

You are not alone in this.

Jane in southwest WI · #46 12/21/05, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

There are some States where you can't even go to your neighbor and buy a calf without having that calf inspected first by the livestock board of that State. And Hauling cards to haul livestock and horses.. So this is a lot more simple then that..This is by many of you folks are getting so blown up way more then it needs to be.. And besides many States have already started the program and handing out readers for the ID Tags for cattle and such. That trying to stop something that is many years old now in the making and under many different Presidents. That it is next to impossible to stop a program like this when Taking into consideration of Mad Cow and WD in deer herds and Elk farms.. This is a good thing and with not stop these from happening but sure will put a flag on just where it was started..

What does NAIS have to do with CWD in deer herds? It will do nothing to control disease in wild animals. The gov can't use RFID technology to track all the wild deer and turkey (unless they want to tag them all!!??), so if a disease outbreak occurs in the wild animals there isn't anything NAIS is going to do to control it.

tnborn · #47 12/21/05, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

It's ok Tnborn. Your confusion is not lost on me. I ask the same questions and then people like Mike keep telling me it is all in my head, that there is no problem.

You are not alone in this.

Thank you. I feel somehow my privacy and rights are being violated.I chose to homestead. Why is the way that I choose to live being threatened?
tnborn

reluctantpatriot · #48 12/21/05, 04:36 PM

Read the Jan/Feb 2006 isuse of Countryside and Small Stock Journal Magazine to understand why I am opposed to NAIS, on pages 67 through 70.

MarkSykes · #49 12/21/05, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danaus29

I seriously don't believe you read ALL the legislation. Every animal will be implanted with a satellite trackable microchip. EXCEPT for the animals on premises with 500 or more animals. each animal will be required to have it's own chip and own id # EXCEPT on premises with 500 or more animals. You will have to notify the govt 24 hours in advance in order to take chickens to be processed. Not a problem when the processing is done on site as it is with most large operations. Where do you think they will get the $$$ to do this???? They can't keep track of dogs and cats and those tags are paid for by the owners. Let's say, for argument sake, it costs $1 to register your chickens. You have 12 chickens, an initial cost of $12, not too bad. Let's say you missed a hidden nest and ended up with another 15, cost now $27. Plus time for filling out paperwork. Of the 15 chicks 5 get eaten by predators. You have to notify the govt within 48 hrs the 5 are now cat food. Even if it happens all on one day you have paperwork to fill out. You want to take the remaining 10 to be butchered. The butcher shop is closed because they didn't want to put in an RFID scanner and do all the extra govt paperwork. Ok, fine, you butcher them yourself and spend an hour that night filling out the paperwork. You decide you want to eat more chickens. This time 20 hatch out, now total cost is $47. More paperwork. You want to sell 5 chickens to your neighbor. More paperwork and vet checks. Lets say $5 per chicken. Neighbor pays you $5 per chicken and you have lost $1 per bird. Neighbor now has to pay $1 each to re-register birds. Govt decides to do a routine inspection, you must pay $20 for the privilege. Total costs now $67. Whoops, the inspector does not like the way you left dishes in your sink last night even though everyone in the house had the flu. Fine $100. (Inspections like this are routine in some states where even living quarters are inspected regardless of the fact the milking parlor and cheese facility are in separate quarters) Costs now $167. You decide enough is enough. Butcher all chickens, more paperwork. Now it costs 50 cents per animal to report to govt because the initial funding phase has expired. An additional $13.50. Total costs $180.50. Run out of chickens, want to buy one at the store. A 5 lb chicken now costs $25, eggs are $6 per dozen.

Danaus29,
Excellent is somewhat lengthy economic analysis. I've paid nothing so far.

MarkSykes · #50 12/21/05, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnborn

Thank you. I feel somehow my privacy and rights are being violated.I chose to homestead. Why is the way that I choose to live being threatened?
tnborn

tnborn,
I have only two days' experience having an NAIS site number, but so far my lifestyle has not been threatened.

Good luck,

MarkSykes · #51 12/21/05, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

Read the Jan/Feb 2006 isuse of Countryside and Small Stock Journal Magazine to understand why I am opposed to NAIS, on pages 67 through 70.

She states on page 68 that "...NAIS will create opportunities for havoc, such as the deliberate introduction of diseased animals onto premises..."

I assure you I haven't done that, and noone has brought any new animals here.

reluctantpatriot · #52 12/21/05, 06:48 PM

Enough now of the troll responses.

okgoatgal2 · #53 12/21/05, 09:07 PM

Quote:

I seriously don't believe you read ALL the legislation. Every animal will be implanted with a satellite trackable microchip. EXCEPT for the animals on premises with 500 or more animals. each animal will be required to have it's own chip and own id # EXCEPT on premises with 500 or more animals.

so the solution is to have more than 500 animals on the place? is that right? i think chipping every blasted chicken i buy or raise is just ridiculous. it won't stay "free" forever-they will start charging for every single chip. i lived on military base and had to chip my dog-it cost $8 8 yrs ago, in the base vet clinic. i can just imagine what it would wind up costing me, once they decide that we need to pay for it ourselves, which will happen, to chip the almost 200 birds i raised this year, over 130 of which are going in the freezer......

caberjim · #54 12/21/05, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnborn

Thank you. I feel somehow my privacy and rights are being violated.I chose to homestead. Why is the way that I choose to live being threatened?
tnborn

This is from the NAIS website.

Q. If a Person Raises Animals for His or Her Own Use and the Animals Never Leave the Owner's Property, Do They Need to be Identified?
A. Under the current plan, animals that never leave a premises do not need to be identified. However, animal owners are encouraged to identify their animals and their premises, regardless of the number of animals present, since many animal diseases may be spread whether an animal leaves its home premises or not. Examples of such diseases include West Nile virus, foot-and-mouth disease, vesicular stomatitus, and equine infectious anemia.

Has this policy changed and not been updated in the NAIS site? If not, then as I understand it, you do not have to register your chickens, rabbits, whatever. As long as you are not selling or transporting them.

Lindafisk · #55 12/21/05, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkSykes

Danaus29,
Excellent is somewhat lengthy economic analysis. I've paid nothing so far.

In the State of Texas we will have to pay $10 a year just for "premises identification" and that's not counting the cost of the actual chips....everything I have read says it's free for NOW but will cost the owner of these animals later....

Lindafisk · #56 12/21/05, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caberjim

This is from the NAIS website.

Q. If a Person Raises Animals for His or Her Own Use and the Animals Never Leave the Owner's Property, Do They Need to be Identified?
A. Under the current plan, animals that never leave a premises do not need to be identified. However, animal owners are encouraged to identify their animals and their premises, regardless of the number of animals present, since many animal diseases may be spread whether an animal leaves its home premises or not. Examples of such diseases include West Nile virus, foot-and-mouth disease, vesicular stomatitus, and equine infectious anemia.

Has this policy changed and not been updated in the NAIS site? If not, then as I understand it, you do not have to register your chickens, rabbits, whatever. As long as you are not selling or transporting them.

The info I have for the state of Texas says "certain species of animals are tagged" under the heading of animal id and then under animal tracking it says animals moved, sold, commingled or slaughtered will be recorded and reported. Under premises id it lists cattle, horses, mules, asses, sheep, goats and hogs, exotic livestock, domestic fowl and exotic fowl. It sounds to me like they will eventually include all animals no matter what, even if maybe they don't right away...here is page link for Texas:http://www.tahc.state.tx.us/animal_i..._FactSheet.pdf
Also please see Tagging Terrorist Chickens: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00146.htm

unioncreek · #57 12/22/05, 08:27 AM

If you're only producing animals for your own consumptions you won't have to worry about the NAIS. But, if you're raising to sell on the side or supplying others with an animal or meat for consumption, it's your responsiblility to produce an edible and disease free animal. I think people are just getting themselves riled up over something that has not been fully developed yet.

Just my own opinion.

Bobg

papaw · #58 12/22/05, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unioncreek

If you're only producing animals for your own consumptions you won't have to worry about the NAIS. But, if you're raising to sell on the side or supplying others with an animal or meat for consumption, it's your responsiblility to produce an edible and disease free animal. I think people are just getting themselves riled up over something that has not been fully developed yet.

Just my own opinion.

Bobg

I'd like an example of something the government manages that's better than something managed by the individual who's producing it.

Our food supplies are becoming posion under the guidance of the government. Their ONLY concerns here are doing away with the little guy and control of the food production process so chemical companies can get even richer.
The concept of an "edible and disease free animal" has NOTHING to do with government control.

caberjim · #59 12/22/05, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindafisk

The info I have for the state of Texas says "certain species of animals are tagged" under the heading of animal id and then under animal tracking it says animals moved, sold, commingled or slaughtered will be recorded and reported. Under premises id it lists cattle, horses, mules, asses, sheep, goats and hogs, exotic livestock, domestic fowl and exotic fowl. It sounds to me like they will eventually include all animals no matter what, even if maybe they don't right away...here is page link for Texas:http://www.tahc.state.tx.us/animal_i..._FactSheet.pdf
Also please see Tagging Terrorist Chickens: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00146.htm

Well, I think that matches with the NAIS standards. "animals moved, sold, commingled or slaughtered will be recorded and reported" - if you raise it, you butcher it and you eat it, it does not have to be registered.

As for tagging each individual animal, NAIS seems clear that animals moving thru production as a group - pigs and chickens for example, only need group ID, not individual tagging.

I have seen on a lot of discussion boards and lists where people are saying the NAIS act allows them to come onto your premesis at any time unannounced. I cannot find that provision anywhere. If it is there, can someone point it out to me.

Another concern that keeps popping up seems to be NAIS thugs flying planes and helicopters over farms reading RFID tags and monitoring private property. Two thoughts - 1. this is so poorly funded I doubt they will have the bidget to afford all those planes and helicopters. 2. You have to be pretty close to read those tags, I doubt a plane doing a fly over would be able to pick up any individual tags.

caberjim · #60 12/22/05, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papaw

I'd like an example of something the government manages that's better than something managed by the individual who's producing it.

Our food supplies are becoming posion under the guidance of the government. Their ONLY concerns here are doing away with the little guy and control of the food production process so chemical companies can get even richer.
The concept of an "edible and disease free animal" has NOTHING to do with government control.

Have you read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle?" Individuals will do better than the govt. But corporations who focus on the bottom line and have no oversight will often put the public at risk to improve profits.

That being said, I wonder how much this initiative is being driven by special interests such as the meat industry. They already have a similar systme in place, so the costs are negligible to them. It is a hard hit to the small farmer.