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12/20/05, 07:14 PM
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Miniature Horse lover
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: West Central WI.
Posts: 21,256
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There are some States where you can't even go to your neighbor and buy a calf without having that calf inspected first by the livestock board of that State. And Hauling cards to haul livestock and horses.. So this is a lot more simple then that..This is by many of you folks are getting so blown up way more then it needs to be.. And besides many States have already started the program and handing out readers for the ID Tags for cattle and such. That trying to stop something that is many years old now in the making and under many different Presidents. That it is next to impossible to stop a program like this when Taking into consideration of Mad Cow and WD in deer herds and Elk farms.. This is a good thing and with not stop these from happening but sure will put a flag on just where it was started..
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12/20/05, 07:45 PM
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Just living Life
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Now in Virginia
Posts: 8,277
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So how are they going to control mad cow in deer and other wild life?
Only way to do that is to kill all the wild animals.. Farm raised or not.
Short of killing every living thing on the planet,, there is no way to totally stop disease from happening. It sadly is a part of life.
Best way to protect ones self is how you handle your animals at home,, and have good bio security.
The government can't even keep up with the programs it has in place now.
Their promise to make all disease a thing of the past isn't going to happen..it is not possible.
As for the hauling card. This program is going to make it even harder to haul your animals..even to ride on the trails down the road, than what is in place now.
Last edited by bergere; 12/20/05 at 07:47 PM.
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12/21/05, 01:35 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 174
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MarkSykes
Can you imagine the manpower necessary to sit around and see how many animals there are? This will wipe out unemployment this nation. That's good news.
Mark..one of my customers manages dozens of nuclear sites communications infrastructure with 2 guys a shift..its not that hard. If I have the items in the database and I can make a rule that if the number of animals decreases..alert is sent via email, pager, whatever and you get a phone call (I can even automate the phone call to automatically be started from a call center and manage the follow up calls and info)
Wow, and here they had just been getting in a vehicle and driving to a place and eyeballing it. So, your point is, they can see what isn't hidden.
NO, what I'm saying is the brunt of the work is RFID'd. If they look in a rural area and compare it with areas that are "registered" and ones that aren't, its easy to drill down into the farms details and observe them. They do it now with google earth and cell phone useage for planning where to add another celll tower to reduce congestion. All I would do is compare sittes registered (shows up red) and not registered (shows up blue). Then I start looking.
My guess is, since we don't hear of masses of WW2 camp survivors refusing car and driver licenses or social security numbers here in the U.S., that they wouldn't feel any more apprehension about getting an agricultural premises number than signing a deed with a plot number.
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things you need in order to live daily is one thing. I do agree people should have a drivers liscense and SS# but no one is forcing you to have these. They will for this program soon. What I don't agree with is I have to register my food. That is what you are asking me to do. Why would the government do this? For security? health reasons? Or is something even more restrictive coming whereas you will need to have a identification card to buy and sell food?
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12/21/05, 04:43 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by apirlawz
An animal in my herd/flock comes back as a false positive...and I'm totally wiped out
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by djunkje
...is something even more restrictive coming whereas you will need to have a identification card to buy and sell food?
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I will add these to the list of things said to happen upon registering with NAIS, and report if and when they occur.
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Mark in West Central Ohio
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12/21/05, 05:23 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by djuhnke
What I don't agree with is I have to register my food.
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This is registering another part of the production chain of food, similar to the way processing plants, dairies and retaurants are registered. The way it's a little bit different this time is it includes private as well as commercial livestock.
Something being a right, whether natural or enumerated, does not prevent its regulation in some form by the govenment. For instance, Article 4 of the Constitution establishes freedom of movement and travel amongst states. Private and public vehicles, which are essentially necessary to accomplish this, are nonetheless required to be registered and licensed to operate on public roads.
I want to thank you, djuhnke, for keeping this on a rational, civil level. I actually am not a government stoolie at all; I think NAIS is a fuel-air explosive solution to a housefly problem. NAIS is very likely going to be the most expensive and least effective way to squelch livestock pandemics and/or prion disease in the food supply. But my experience with goat owners and CAE has proven to me that people overwhelmingly will not lift a finger to self-police and prevent propagating a debilitating disease on their own (and the ADGA turns a blind eye, too). The mindset which does that is the same which jumps uncritically from "register with NAIS" to "all you'll have to eat will be dried milk and chicken." Fighting that is what drives me in this thread.
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Mark in West Central Ohio
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12/21/05, 05:25 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bergere
...kill all the wild animals.. Farm raised or not.
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Another item on the list of things I will report on when I give updates.
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Mark in West Central Ohio
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12/21/05, 07:02 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,754
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Mark
Thank you for your very informative posts. It amazes me that there is so much disinformation mixed into the discusion of this subject. If your food(livestock) does not leave your homestead or farm you will never have a problem as far as I can tell. If you want to bring what you produce into the market place you should have to abide by the rules, actually a very simple concept.
Mr Wanda
Mike
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12/21/05, 07:13 AM
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Shepherd
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central NY
Posts: 1,658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apirlawz
An animal in my herd/flock comes back as a false positive...and I'm totally wiped out
Quote:
Mark in West Central Ohio
I will add these to the list of things said to happen upon registering with NAIS, and report if and when they occur.
Again, an example of this exact scenario in action is taking place in Florida with Citrus Canker.
Quote:
PaPaw
These folks can make fun of it if they like, but when the only food available to them is powdered milk from China or juiced up chickens from who knows where ... they'll wish they'd been serious about it. To tamper with our most basic right ...to produce our own food is abhorrent to anyone who thinks.
I agree with you Papaw. Those who are poking fun are Naive.
Just replace "powdered" milk with "pasteruized"
and "juiced up" chickens with "antibiotic, hormone, pesticide laden".
Need a tin foil hat to imagine that, MarkSykes?
I have been in front of an obnoxious judge and had my name in the paper as a criminal because I failed to license my dog.... a little lap poodle who rarely put a foot outdoors and never left our property. (The town sent out
an "enforcer" who went around knocking on doors listening for barking).
The fines and court fees took quite a bite out of our very limited income.
We ate boxed mac and cheese every night for quite a few weeks thereafter.
We weren't laughing, we didn't feel "protected". We were young but still recognized a revenue producing scheme when we saw one.
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12/21/05, 08:02 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minnikin1
example of this exact scenario [false positive for an infectious disease causing a complete loss of livestock or crop] in action is taking place in Florida with Citrus Canker.
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A Google news search on "citrus canker" and "false positive" turns up no hits. That means news organizations which are paid to sell newspapers, articles or shows and are no strangers to harassing or embarassing governmental bodies have sorted through whatever anecdotal stories (some of which I'm sure you're going to bring up) and found them false, unreliable or impossible to confim and decided responsibly to not spread rumors.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by minnikin1
Just replace "powdered" milk with "pasteruized"
and "juiced up" chickens with "antibiotic, hormone, pesticide laden".
Need a tin foil hat to imagine that, MarkSykes?
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One of us does. I will let your statement stand on its own, uh, merit.
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Originally Posted by minnikin1
I have been in front of an obnoxious judge and had my name in the paper as a criminal because I failed to license my dog.... a little lap poodle who rarely put a foot outdoors and never left our property. (The town sent out an "enforcer" who went around knocking on doors listening for barking). The fines and court fees took quite a bite out of our very limited income. We ate boxed mac and cheese every night for quite a few weeks thereafter. We weren't laughing, we didn't feel "protected". We were young but still recognized a revenue producing scheme when we saw one.
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Let me understand. You got an animal for which you needed a license. Licenses are a type of tax, and proceeds from the dog license tax pays for animal control, the pound, etc. The dog license law says nothing about whether the dog spends its time indoors or outdoors, only if it lives within the municipal limits. However, as True Patriots™, you decided taxes were for the little people and you didn't have to pay. It's unfair, then, when you're caught breaking the law and fined.
Is that it in a nutshell, so to speak?
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Mark in West Central Ohio
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12/21/05, 08:03 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minnikin1
Need a tin foil hat to imagine that, MarkSykes?
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Added to the list of things to report upon as a consequence of registering with NAIS.
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Mark in West Central Ohio
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12/21/05, 08:49 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 19,350
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I seriously don't believe you read ALL the legislation. Every animal will be implanted with a satellite trackable microchip. EXCEPT for the animals on premises with 500 or more animals. each animal will be required to have it's own chip and own id # EXCEPT on premises with 500 or more animals. You will have to notify the govt 24 hours in advance in order to take chickens to be processed. Not a problem when the processing is done on site as it is with most large operations. Where do you think they will get the $$$ to do this???? They can't keep track of dogs and cats and those tags are paid for by the owners. Let's say, for argument sake, it costs $1 to register your chickens. You have 12 chickens, an initial cost of $12, not too bad. Let's say you missed a hidden nest and ended up with another 15, cost now $27. Plus time for filling out paperwork. Of the 15 chicks 5 get eaten by predators. You have to notify the govt within 48 hrs the 5 are now cat food. Even if it happens all on one day you have paperwork to fill out. You want to take the remaining 10 to be butchered. The butcher shop is closed because they didn't want to put in an RFID scanner and do all the extra govt paperwork. Ok, fine, you butcher them yourself and spend an hour that night filling out the paperwork. You decide you want to eat more chickens. This time 20 hatch out, now total cost is $47. More paperwork. You want to sell 5 chickens to your neighbor. More paperwork and vet checks. Lets say $5 per chicken. Neighbor pays you $5 per chicken and you have lost $1 per bird. Neighbor now has to pay $1 each to re-register birds. Govt decides to do a routine inspection, you must pay $20 for the privilege. Total costs now $67. Whoops, the inspector does not like the way you left dishes in your sink last night even though everyone in the house had the flu. Fine $100. (Inspections like this are routine in some states where even living quarters are inspected regardless of the fact the milking parlor and cheese facility are in separate quarters) Costs now $167. You decide enough is enough. Butcher all chickens, more paperwork. Now it costs 50 cents per animal to report to govt because the initial funding phase has expired. An additional $13.50. Total costs $180.50. Run out of chickens, want to buy one at the store. A 5 lb chicken now costs $25, eggs are $6 per dozen.
When all of a certain comodity is held by a few companies they can charge what they want. Do you think all meat producers will become non-profit? No, they will be like the gas and oil companies and hold all the cards. You want to eat, you pay their price.
On a side note, $175 million was recently appropriated for the initial cost of the nat'l id. It has already cost us too much. There were systems in place to track food that is available to the public. These systems and the ones supposedly safe-guarding our food supply are not broken, just woefully underfunded. Reinforce the old system. Leave the little guy alone.
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12/21/05, 09:18 AM
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I am good without god.
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Terra Planet, Sol System, Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 858
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SOrry MikeSykes, but you are sounding more and more annoying
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Originally Posted by MarkSykes
Added to the list of things to report upon as a consequence of registering with NAIS.
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Your tone is coming across more and more like you are being sarcastic about anyone who has a different idea than you do about NAIS. Explain to me how major commercial operations are safer than a small farm that does everything by hand and in person.
Second, just because the government makes a tax or fee or permit doesn't make it a de facto necessity nor any less than a right. The logic of this line of thinking is that the government can outlaw self-defense, like England has, where the penalties for causing harm to a criminal is worse than doing nothing.
Third, how does tracking an animal that will never leave a homestead help control national food safety? If I raise rabbits that never leave their cage until I butcher them for my freezer, how does that make someone safer on the east or west coasts when I live in the midwest? Can you HONESTLY tell me my food animal, which never leave my property, will affect the lives of someone hundreds of miles away?
Fourth, tell me, how are you going to take care of all the CWD and other avian flu varieties in wild game? Are you going to put chips in each and every wild game bird, song bird, deer, elk, antelope, bear, mountain sheep, cougar, bobcat, squirrel, rabbit, groundhog, fish, rat, mouse, insect, and so forth?
I am trying to understand why your tone is coming across and condescending and sarcastic when people state that they disagree with you. You also come across as a anti-liberty and anti-freedom person who feels that anything the government comes up with must be safe and wholesome and reasonable.
__________________
I would challenge anyone here to think of a question upon which we once had a scientific answer, however inadequate, but for which now the best answer is a religious one. – Sam Harris
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12/21/05, 10:36 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
Your tone is coming across more and more like you are being sarcastic about anyone who has a different idea than you do about NAIS.
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I welcome a discussion of ideas. So far, almost every post has been an unreasoned jab. I'm trusting yours will be one of the few exceptions.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
Explain to me how major commercial operations are safer than a small farm that does everything by hand and in person.
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I don't know, and that's quite soundly out of the scope of discussion. I am simply documenting the steps I've gone through to register with NAIS and the consequences/changes I personally observe as a result. I will say that big doesn't always equal bad.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
Second, just because the government makes a tax or fee or permit doesn't make it a de facto necessity nor any less than a right. The logic of this line of thinking is that the government can outlaw self-defense, like England has, where the penalties for causing harm to a criminal is worse than doing nothing.
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I think you're agreeing with my previous example of Constitutional Article 4 and driving. You're correct; we have rights to speech and movement but licenses for TV stations and cars.
England has a different, non-Constitutional form of government and I cannot speak for their laws.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
Third, how does tracking an animal that will never leave a homestead help control national food safety?
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I will again say I think NAIS is a body cast where a bandage would have worked. I've been a generally optimistic person trustful of the best in my fellow man, but the CAE quagmire in the goat industry has all but erased that. If there was not a blanket requirement to register livestock, private or corporate, strictly for home use or for sale to a slaughterhouse, then sure as shinola there will be the jokers who will lie to your face and claim their operation is exempt because of home-only use, all while backing the truck up to transport his animals to the market.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
If I raise rabbits that never leave their cage until I butcher them for my freezer, how does that make someone safer on the east or west coasts when I live in the midwest?
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Rabbits are specifically exempted - see here, seventh from bottom question.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
Can you HONESTLY tell me my food animal, which never leave my property, will affect the lives of someone hundreds of miles away?
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No. Can you HONESTLY tell me that the person who promised my neighbor the goat he was buying was CAE free will be completely forthright in registering his for-market animals with NAIS if an exemption for home-use livestock is made?
I didn't think so.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
Fourth, tell me, how are you going to take care of all the CWD and other avian flu varieties in wild game? Are you going to put chips in each and every wild game bird, song bird, deer, elk, antelope, bear, mountain sheep, cougar, bobcat, squirrel, rabbit, groundhog, fish, rat, mouse, insect, and so forth?
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I have no plan to take care of the wild game and have no plans on chipping bobcats. Again, that is out of scope; I'm registering my food animals with NAIS and reporting what happens to me against what others on this board say will happen. I have no interest, designs, schemes, plans or arrangements with the wild animals you specified.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
I am trying to understand why your tone is coming across and condescending and sarcastic when people state that they disagree with you.
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Well, my tone is seems sarcastic because it is. It's not in this post because you made reasoned points and asked sensible questions. Honestly, if you posted that you obtained a NAIS premises number and someone tells you you'll be eating nothing but chinese powdered milk and chicken, how gladly are you to suffer the fool? If the person posting such a thing is shocked by a caustic comeback into thinking about and defending his comment, then we can make some progress.
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Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot
You also come across as a anti-liberty and anti-freedom person who feels that anything the government comes up with must be safe and wholesome and reasonable.
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That I take exception to. I contend that I'm one of the freest individuals on this board. It's not because of where my electricity comes from (the power company), of where I live and shop (within municipal limits, barely, and at Wal-Mart[!]) or whether I have a NAIS site number or not. Freedom is in one's heart and thoughts and spirit or it's nowhere. I wake up a free man, work a job of my free choice, pray freely and go to sleep a free man. If you let, as I see others here do, the things around you imprison you then you'll never know freedom. If NAIS gets you so down that you can't think straight and you fret bitterly on a homesteading board of all places, then cash it in. You're not freedom-compatible.
I trust the tenor of this post was more to your liking; I enjoyed yours.
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Mark in West Central Ohio
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12/21/05, 11:07 AM
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Just living Life
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Now in Virginia
Posts: 8,277
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I just got this letter in the email from folks I am a member with.
Hello everyone,
You are receiving this email because you are listed in
the Breeder's Directory at the Heritage Breeds
Conservancy website. I am writing to share information
with you about the National Animal Identification
System, commonly referred to as NAIS. The NAIS is the
government's attempt to track and monitor, to put it
bluntly, every livestock animal in the country. While
this is optional at this point in time, it is slated
to become mandatory early in 2008.
There is a very good article here -
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00146.htm - on
what some of the goals of NAIS will be, and how they
will affect you. The NAIS will affect all owners -
from alpacas, to cattle, from emu to goat, from deer
to chicken, from horse to swine - all of these
livestock fall under the labels of the NAIS.
What are we doing to stop it? A grass roots movement
has been started, and we are working to pull together
information on who to contact in the government, as
well as flyers and information sheets that can be
handed out and posted at feed stores, etc, to help
raise awareness. So far, just the forum is up, but an
actual website will soon follow as we get more
organized. You can visit the forum at
http://stopanimalid.org/forum/index.php - if we all
band together, we can at least get them to exempt the
small farmers and hobby breeders, if not defeat it
entirely! To do this, we need YOU. Please help spread
the news!
Have a merry Christmas,
Hannah (username HSherlock at the forum)
SnugBun Rabbitry (Harlequins and French Lops)
Lake Effect Rattery
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12/21/05, 11:59 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 712
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I don't understand how anyone cal call themselves "homesteaders" and not be upset by this latest invasion of our rights. There is nothing good that can even remotely come from this legislation.
It is NOT a joke.
__________________
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
Thomas Jefferson
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12/21/05, 12:24 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 917
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by papaw
I don't understand how anyone cal call themselves "homesteaders" and not be upset by this latest invasion of our rights. There is nothing good that can even remotely come from this legislation.
It is NOT a joke.
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Well Said.
This is not something to accept quietly.
tnborn
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12/21/05, 12:32 PM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bergere
if we all band together, we can at least get them to exempt the small farmers and hobby breeders
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And that's a good idea because why --? Imagine a circumstance in which a consumer group publishes which restaurant buys NAIS-tracked beef and which doesn't. All restaurants, not wanting to appear careless with their sources, immediately drop all non-NAIS affiliated suppliers. If there are exceptions for smallholders, where does that leave them?
The article referenced in the letter provided a hypothetical situation in which suppliers of diseased meat got busted. Who are they saying should bear liability instead?
Disclaimer: This thread was not started to defend NAIS, but to document in light of some of the wild things said on this board, what actually happens to me and my livestock subsequent to registering with NAIS.
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Mark in West Central Ohio
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12/21/05, 12:36 PM
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I am good without god.
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Terra Planet, Sol System, Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 858
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It doesn't surprise me at all
It doesn't surprise me at all that some people think that NAIS is so wonderful. Just like having to have a license, fee or permit for anything else, even planning and zoning codes and ordinances, it is about giving up freedom and liberty for government control.
If someone wishes to be the guinea pig to prove a point, that is fine. However, I already know it is a bad idea which will make things worse rather than better. I expect that for the moment nothing "bad" will happen, much like pre-WW II Germany with Hitler and the Jews. In time the evil will come, incrementally, as it has always done.
The few actual bad folks who intentionally do wrong or the few small events that happen will be used to club the rest of the nation into submission "for their own good."
I only register my car and have a drivers license because the alternative of driving without either is not worth it right now, not because I willingly do so. I prefer unregistered and unlicensed everything. It is not the item, device, location or other quality that makes things dangerous, rather the intent of the person wielding them.
As a side note, I don't live anywhere that the post office will deliver mail and I am not on any of their maps. Even forcing me at gunpoint to register my homestead would be pointless. I will not comply, I will never comply. If it takes feeding the coyotes and buzzards and giving the goobers fitful, sleepless nights, so be it.
__________________
I would challenge anyone here to think of a question upon which we once had a scientific answer, however inadequate, but for which now the best answer is a religious one. – Sam Harris
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12/21/05, 12:43 PM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 83
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by papaw
I don't understand how anyone cal [sic] call themselves "homesteaders" and not be upset by this latest invasion of our rights.
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Please see the above response to reluctantpatriot, near the bottom, with respect to being upset.
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Originally Posted by papaw
There is nothing good that can even remotely come from this legislation.
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I wasn't quite able to catch how you had reasoned out your last post and I'm missing it again here. With what about NAIS do you have an issue? If possible, include links or references to the NAIS Draft Strategic Plan so that "homesteaders" like myself can understand your disquiet.
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Originally Posted by papaw
It is NOT a joke.
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I'm with you here; I wish more people would treat the subject seriously and thoughtfully.
__________________
Mark in West Central Ohio
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