organic spray on insulation

Yes I looked over the link:

It certainly does fill the voids with cellulose.

But I dont see how that 'seals' a wall from air infiltrating through the outer wall. loose cellulose is not caulk, it is not shrink-wrap either.

But other options do seal up tight like caulk does, and seals the outer walls totally from air infiltration.

It certainly can be put into the voids very densely, but even salesmen admit that it can and does settle. Also if the studs are too far apart, it will fall away from the studs and collapse.

It is my understanding that the best 'fire-proof' insulation is still perlite.

Cellulose is still made from wood-pulp, which burns at 451F. Treat it, wet it down, play with it all you want; after being exposed to heat it will dry itself. After prolonged exposure to heat, it will still burn.

Pop-corn popped glass needs 3500F to be made. and anything less than 3000F will not touch it.

To quote the site you provided: "When You Consider Performance and Safety Factors: the balance swings to cellulose building insulation."

Well, no. Different types of insulation work better for specific applications.

To really seal an outer wall from drafts, you need something that seals. Tar, epoxy, caulk, or plastic sheets. A lot of folks really like tar-paper. Others really like plastic sheeting. I like blown on epoxys.

When you build a industrial cryogenic facility, or any structure to house liquid nitrogen they like to use perlite. businesses are ran by their bottom-line, if you have to pay for each lost BTU, then you have lost profits.

If you wanted to add structural strength to your wall, then a few inches of styrofoam will certainly add a lot of strength, just like a 'core-filled' door. And I think that most folks would agree that styrofoam works pretty good for holding heat, or holding cold. At least it seems that way when you see them using styrofoam ice-chests.

ET1SS said:
"It certainly can be put into the voids very densely, but even salesmen admit that it can and does settle. Also if the studs are too far apart, it will fall away from the studs and collapse."
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If properly applied, it does not settle. Most salesmen are teenagers at big box stores. Call the manufacturer for the straight poop. Most studs are 16 inch centers. That's code in my county. I know old houses can vary, but it is still the best bet for old houses, even if you do remove the walls to expose the voids.
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ET1SS said:
"It is my understanding that the best 'fire-proof' insulation is still perlite.

Cellulose is still made from wood-pulp, which burns at 451F. Treat it, wet it down, play with it all you want; after being exposed to heat it will dry itself. After prolonged exposure to heat, it will still burn."
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No argument with perlite being totally fireproof; however, cellulose is applied dry and you can hold it in your hand and apply a 2000 degree torch flame and not get burned. It is far safer from fire than any foam. And who would wet down their wall or ceiling insulation?
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ET1SS said:
"Well, no. Different types of insulation work better for specific applications."
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Certainly foam has applications that are not appropriate for cellulose. The specific application here is the walls and ceiling, and when it comes to price, safety, application, and R-value, cellulose is the best bet. When it comes to putting it into existing walls, foam cannot even be used.
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ET1SS said:
"To really seal an outer wall from drafts, you need something that seals. Tar, epoxy, caulk, or plastic sheets. A lot of folks really like tar-paper. Others really like plastic sheeting. I like blown on epoxys."
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Perhaps you didn't read all of the site information. I can understand that because my computer is a dial-up and pdf files take a while to download. I usually scan sites provided anyway. Just like you, I found it hard to believe a loose fill could stop air infiltration, but cellulose performs great in fire prevention in part because air will not move through it.

One of the pdf files says: "Walls insulated with cellulose don't become draft chambers that deliver oxygen to burning frame members."

Air moves through fiberglass almost unimpeeded. You can stop this in a ceiling insulated with fiberglass by covering it with cellulose.

A lot of new construction places a tyvek type barrier outside and a plastic vapor barrier inside. Almost everyone puts a vapor barrier inside. Otherwise, the insulation will get wet from condensation. Mold will grow on any type of wet insulation, except cellulose.

I've never heard about the blown-on epoxy. What do you apply it to? Do you build the stud walls and put the outside shell on then blow on the epoxy? Wouldn't that put the vapor barrier on the outside - the absolute wrong place for a vapor barrier? Or do you put it over a layer of plastic or drywall?
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ET1SS said:
"When you build a industrial cryogenic facility, or any structure to house liquid nitrogen they like to use perlite. businesses are ran by their bottom-line, if you have to pay for each lost BTU, then you have lost profits."
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Liquid nitrogen may not be the best example that relates to home construction. I do know that perlite will run out of your outlets and under the baseboards if they are not perfectly sealed. Sometimes, other factors, like codes and regulations, influence companies. I'm not certain of the insulation value of perlite, but, I know they also use it in high temperature applications, like kilns. I am not saying that cellulose covers the spectrum and is the perfect answer to all insulating needs. IMHO, it's just the best bet for home use.
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ET1SS said:
"If you wanted to add structural strength to your wall, then a few inches of styrofoam will certainly add a lot of strength, just like a 'core-filled' door."
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Structural insulated panels (SIP) get their strength by lamination, not caulking along the edges of the foam. Standard walls with pieces of foam inside do not need the foam for strength. SIP's do not have studs at 16 inches, and there are strict manufacturing guidelines to give the panels their strength. Certainly this is an application that is unique to foam and cellulose would not work at all.
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ET1SS said:
"And I think that most folks would agree that styrofoam works pretty good for holding heat, or holding cold. At least it seems that way when you see them using styrofoam ice-chests."
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The R-value of foam is definitely greater. And as a material for ice chests and refrigerators it is great. There are even foams with reasonably low fire risk for use in homes. The prices are higher, and you cannot retrofit your house easily with foam. There are many applications for foam that no other insulation will suffice. I am not saying that cellulose covers the spectrum and is the perfect answer to all insulating needs. IMHO, it's just the best bet for home use in walls and ceilings.

I guess the essence of this thread is soy based foam. It seems from the site posted that it is a decent product, if you accept the gamble on outgassing. It's certain that cellulose is cheaper, and also extremely safe. I think outgassing of most current building products dissipates in a few weeks.

I choose to not use foam for insulating walls and ceilings (specifically) because cellulose is a recycled product with a very low energy content and does not use any oil based chemicals. Even the soy based foam relies on solvents and such.

He was in his mid-thirtys and said that he had been working with the product for ten years-ish.

Studs are only in stick buildings. so to say that most buildings have studs at 16 inches is ---.

I truly doubt whether your county requires all buildings to have studs.

It seems you are more willing to accept hearsay rather than website details.

The website says that tests have shown that it packs so tightly that a plastic vapor barrier makes no detectable difference in the air infiltration. If the product settled, air would infiltrate.

So, according to you, this guy must be right. The website must be wrong.

The vast majority of all construction is typical studs. Of course there are other types of construction where stud codes don't apply. But your comment was "Also if the studs are too far apart, it will fall away from the studs and collapse." So we were talking about studs. Cellulose, properly installed, won't fall away from the studs and collapse.

People who work in that industry!

Wet-Spray Cellulose Insulation Systems:
http://www.naima.org/pages/resources...tml/BI460.HTML


Wet-sprayed insulation tightly adheres to walls and anything else it contacts:
http://www.healthgoods.com/Education...insulation.htm

What prevents mold when you install the material wet in walls?:
www.builtgreen.org/articles/0209_cellulose.htm

Wet-Sprayed Cellulose Insulation in Wood-Frame Construction
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publicati...ech/90-240.pdf

Having spent the last few decades in the construction industry, I am always amused by claims that product X will burn at 451* and "ours will only burn at 2000*).Who cares? The vast majority of residential construction has a fire rated wallboard (sheetrock) over any insulation used in wall cavities. If a dwelling is approaching 400 degrees, hopefully the dwellers are standing outside and waiting for the fire company. Cellulose, fiberglas, and foam are all excellent insulation products. None of them should be left exposed to occupants for various reasons, so pick whatever meets your financial and other conciderations, don't worry about how it performs at several hundred degrees, unless you are building a kiln.

ET1- thanks for posting those links. I didn't realize some contractors do apply it wet.

Your command of the font size is impressive.

then I do apologize for bringing in an absurd comparison.

From your knowledge and expertise, I would ask you a question. You see, I dont want my house to burn down, ever. I have erected a steel building. When I am finished with sealing the basement, I will be building the floor next. I have used spray-on foam before and I really liked it.

Is it un-realistic to think that a home could be so fire-resistant that even if it did start to burn, the fire could ever just sputter out on it's own and only the furnishings be lost?

I have been through enough fires in the Navy, and everytime we replaced anything that was charred and painted over everything else.

thank you.

The fire argument is a good one against cellulose. While sheetrock will stop flames from reaching the insulation for about 15-30 minutes, heat still goes through it and can ignite insulation. The problem with that is extension of the fire to other areas of the house...through the walls, into the attic, etc. But polyurethane foam doesn't support combustion, it just kind of melts.

Any super-insulated home presents its own fire issues, though. The insulation does its job and holds the heat inside, so it builds up rapidly and causes flashover to occur very quickly, incinerating the contents and pretty much ensuring a total loss to the structure (if it's wood). But ET1 SS, I'm seeing more and more that we think alike. I approached building my home with a similar goal of making it extremely fire-resistant, so if there ever is a fire it will burn only the contents of the house (which are already destroyed by smoke damage anyway) and not the structure itself. Maybe that's a good topic for another thread if you and I aren't the only ones who think that way. Are you planning on putting in fire sprinklers? One caution...even fire-resistant building materials fail at high temps, so if you have a fire in the house, bust windows out to vent heat while you wait for the fire department. That will make it safer for the firefighters going in or going on the roof.

I had to put in fire-sprinklers in the fire-room of one of my apartment buildings. It cost a lot, but it is really a simple system. I do plan to install a fire-sprinkler system in this house. I will do it myself. Our local 'town' is a 'Un-organized township', so fire-fighting coverage is provided by the state forestry department. So I dont think that if I had a fire, anyone would show up wihin the first couple days.

I had always thought that we would put in a out-door fire-supression system as well. [mounting sprinklers on the roof, at each corner, right above the gutters]. but I was raised in the Sierra Nevadas with annual brush-fires, and later I worked on a goat dairy while I attended college [again with annual bruch-fires]. However as it turned out, we are settling in a very wet area, so brush-fires is not an issue.