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  #21  
Old 01/04/17, 09:50 PM
nobody
 
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Originally Posted by barnbilder View Post
I picked up on the growling thing. I've had "hard" dogs before. That is one of my pet peeves. I'm not going to tolerate being growled at, certainly not when it is my own dog, on my own place. I feel like this guy misread a lot of clear warning signs leading up to this event. I see people treat these things like they are just livestock or something. Get one or two, dump them in a pen with a few goats, if they have puppies, great, cash jackpot. Working parents. One perfect storm away from a really bad situation.
I can see that too.
Not knowing everything, I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Having said he immediately recognized his mistakes, leads me to believe he would know the difference between right and wrong.
I've also known a few incidents where a moment of distraction and unexpected instigation resulted in a bad outcome.

That's why the firearm analogy.
Guns aren't for everybody and anybody that has one (or a guard dog) needs to be attentive even IF "nothing ever happens".
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  #22  
Old 01/05/17, 12:43 AM
 
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I have Australian Shepherds, and when two or more are together, they are empowered. My male and female together about killed a coyote, one working each end. My male is an a-hole with strange male dogs and I've seen my female jump in to back him up when he picked a fight in the past. Not something I'm happy about and control for when friends come over with their dogs. I see the Border Collie joining in to back up her partner.

Also, the "submissive" behavior with tail wagging was likely not that but active guarding of the piglet. Dogs will low wag and crouch when stimulated/conflicted/aroused. The growling along with that points towards the dog not behaving submissively but aroused and on the threshold of aggression. Why did these dogs perceive this "owner" that way? Very strange. The relationship seems not to have been there. I don't have LGDs, but my herding dogs are my partners and never challenge me, want to work for me. Something was very broken in the relationship between this man and his dogs.
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  #23  
Old 01/05/17, 11:20 AM
 
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Location: Michigan's thumb
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The consensus seems to be that this man did not know how to read his own dog. Many of us cannot read dog language. As Wistco mentioned, we are brought up to believe that a tail wag means a dog is happy, but it could mean several things. I know I was taught that a dog with his ears laid back will bite. In actuality, most dogs bite out of fear and a dog with his ears laid back is showing submission and/or fear. So, if you show aggression the dog may run from you, but it may bite in self defense. A dog with his ears proudly forward is showing confidence, and he may bite, too.

As for protecting the piglet, I didn’t think the dog was protecting the piglet from the hostility of the man. However, he may have been resource guarding. Still, he did not kill the piglet so the man misread the dog from the word "go".
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  #24  
Old 01/05/17, 08:10 PM
nobody
 
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There were definitely a few mistakes made and unfortunately the price paid by all was pretty high.
I read this 3 or 4 times now and pick up new details each time.
This time, I got the impression that the Anatolian was protecting the piglet more than looking at it as food, but we'll never know for sure.
If he WAS just doing his job and the owner scolded him with a "No", along with an accusatory and dissatisfied attitude, the resulting confusion by the dog is understandable.
Misreading body language and whatever history they may have had resulted in an accumulation of errors.
Attacking him was however, inexcusable.
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  #25  
Old 01/05/17, 09:43 PM
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Ooooops!
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  #26  
Old 01/09/17, 11:55 AM
 
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I think the guy was clueless about his dogs. Tail wagging and growling is a sign of aggressiveness not submission.

If he was in control of the dog he wouldn't felt the need to call it away from the piglet, he would have simply went and got the pig.


PS

After thinking about it, I believe the tail wagging and growling is a challenging behavior.

I'm afraid some people used to dealing with smaller dogs aren't fully prepared for dealing with a larger, more independent minded dog.
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Last edited by Allen W; 01/09/17 at 01:48 PM.
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  #27  
Old 01/09/17, 01:05 PM
 
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Dogs do growl as part of their language. They growl when they play fight. Some dogs bark as an invitation to play. Irish setters are noted for vast vocal expressions, as well as smiling (showing teeth). However, when taken into consideration the breed of dog, I agree that growling should be taken seriously. You don’t continue to provoke a growling dog.
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  #28  
Old 01/09/17, 11:26 PM
 
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Location: Bel Aire, KS
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I've seen GP pups be truly aggressive with each other and with people they didn't know at 6 weeks of age! I refused to even consider getting those. I have one friend who had the best GP female he ever had. He didn't have to fence his property even though it was fenced. They just didn't fence the front acreage off so she stayed on the property and lived there for 9 years before dying of old age. They, then got, a male who grew into this truly gigantic GP male that would roam and he was aggressive with strangers be it dog/coyote/human. He was the only dog I've ever met that truly scared me. He was that big. My friend's uncle was taking care of the property while his sister (my friend's mom) was in France looking for antique jewelry/watches to buy cheap (apparently they're cheap in Europe because everyone has them so she buys them cheap then turns around and sells them for more money in America). One day, the uncle had to tell the dog to get back in the property and the dog reacted badly. Went crazy and bit the uncle so badly that he had to literally crawl back in the house and get a rifle and shoot the dog dead. The dog was maybe a year old. After that, I decided I didn't want to get a GP if at all!
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  #29  
Old 01/11/17, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen W View Post
I think the guy was clueless about his dogs. Tail wagging and growling is a sign of aggressiveness not submission.

If he was in control of the dog he wouldn't felt the need to call it away from the piglet, he would have simply went and got the pig.


PS

After thinking about it, I believe the tail wagging and growling is a challenging behavior.

I'm afraid some people used to dealing with smaller dogs aren't fully prepared for dealing with a larger, more independent minded dog.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedH71 View Post
I've seen GP pups be truly aggressive with each other and with people they didn't know at 6 weeks of age! I refused to even consider getting those. I have one friend who had the best GP female he ever had. He didn't have to fence his property even though it was fenced. They just didn't fence the front acreage off so she stayed on the property and lived there for 9 years before dying of old age. They, then got, a male who grew into this truly gigantic GP male that would roam and he was aggressive with strangers be it dog/coyote/human. He was the only dog I've ever met that truly scared me. He was that big. My friend's uncle was taking care of the property while his sister (my friend's mom) was in France looking for antique jewelry/watches to buy cheap (apparently they're cheap in Europe because everyone has them so she buys them cheap then turns around and sells them for more money in America). One day, the uncle had to tell the dog to get back in the property and the dog reacted badly. Went crazy and bit the uncle so badly that he had to literally crawl back in the house and get a rifle and shoot the dog dead. The dog was maybe a year old. After that, I decided I didn't want to get a GP if at all!
Hmmm. I'm sure that dog was hard headed, but mistakes were made. The uncle had not bonded with that dog and established himself. He had no business giving commands. The young dog felt threatened and lashed out. Be honest if you can, if you know all the details. I'm betting he approached the dog and ordered it back on the property, maybe even tried to grab his collar. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN with my dog. Even my family, who have bonded with my dog and established themselves, know that they are to bribe my dog with hardboiled eggs and treats if she gets out, and if she shows no interest in that they are to follow and continue the bribery. And they're all willing to do that, or I wouldn't even leave my dog. And she's a big sweetheart, wouldn't bite unless she felt like my wife, myself, or herself were in imminent danger.

Just consider this. What you're saying about Great Pyrenees is a complete 180 from what the vast majority of people who own and/or work with Great Pyrenees say.
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  #30  
Old 01/13/17, 12:06 AM
 
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The three100% GPs that I had were total people dogs. Always wanted attention. My Anatolian and my 5/8 Anatolian and 3/8 GP want nothing to do with people. They bark at them, but if people are in the feild, they move to the tree line. The GP of my friend is also a people dog.
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  #31  
Old 01/22/17, 08:42 AM
 
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Location: Texas
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I have a large male GP, absolutely sweetest dog ever. He is a big love. Never one time have I had an issue with him in the 8 years I've had him. He is completely obedient, loves my grand kids, is good with my ranch dogs and my small house dog as well as my cats. He protects his chicken flock and my mini horses with no aggression toward either.
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  #32  
Old 01/24/17, 01:19 PM
 
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Like people, dogs sometimes just snap. A good guard dog understands the owner is in charge always. You'll never know why it really happened. Could easily have been a mental or health issue with the dog at that age. I know a guy who had a Rottweiler as a house dog. He raised her from a pup and she was the sweetest dog ever. She loved people and liked for small kids to ride on her back. She was 8 years old when she snapped for no apparent reason. He was sitting in his chair witching tv and casually cleaning his carry pistol as usual and she was laying across the room. Suddenly she just stood up, stared at him, and began growling. She didn't respond to any commands and started snarling at him. He was scared. He hurried and snapped his pistol together and shot her in the living room when she started snarling and walking toward him. He loved that dog and always took her with him in his truck. He actually cried just telling me about it.
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  #33  
Old 01/24/17, 02:11 PM
 
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Nah, at age 8, she was probably starting to develop early stages of dementia or it could be possibly she had a brain tumor. I doubt she was autopsied.
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  #34  
Old 01/24/17, 02:23 PM
 
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The first thing to go with a dog is hearing, then peripheral vision. This is why you can come up from behind talking nice to the dog and he’ll turn and snap at you when you get to his head or reach to pet him. I’ll agree with Ted about age induced dementia. Eight is old for a Rottweiler.

My border collie is really well trained and very obedient. Then, he started ignoring me when he was fifty feet away, voice or whistle. Now, he ignores me from five feet. He’s loosing his hearing. I let him loose at home, but when we go anywhere he has to be on a leash because he has no recall. Vet put him on ginkgo biloba for dementia.
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  #35  
Old 01/25/17, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maura View Post
Irish setters are noted for vast vocal expressions, as well as smiling (showing teeth).
Our GP/Kangal smiles when she's happy to see us when we get home from work or something. Or when she gets in trouble, maybe cuz she knows I can't stay mad when she does that.
We had a german shepherd/malamute cross that would do that too. And my friend has a cathoula cross that will do it on command if she's in the mood.
My favourite dog expression.

But reading your dog's expression, ear, tail wag etc. kind of varies from dog to dog or at least breed and some are more expressive than others.
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  #36  
Old 01/26/17, 12:53 AM
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lots of mistakes were made this person miss read the dog from the beginning and paid a heavy price for it, so he is by no means blameless. But it is also an important reminder of the fact that we sometimes forget we basically have wolves guarding our livestock and our lives, and even though we forget dogs do not, they understand what they are and still have all the instincts of their wild ancestors. It is important to always know the score especially with the "hard" breeds. even if it is a one out of a million thing, knowing when you are and are not in control and acting accordingly can be the difference between life and death.
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  #37  
Old 01/27/17, 06:40 PM
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I agree that nobody will ever know what really happened....there's no video and the man who is telling the story was in a high-stress situation which can alter your memory of an event. My heart goes out to him no matter what the situation was.

I've worked in an animal shelter & as a licensed vet tech in vet clinics, and I've been breeding and showing dogs for a dozen years now. I still read things wrong sometimes, and I "speak" pretty fluent dog.

Different breeds tend to have their quirks, and something what's normal for that breed can mean something totally different in another breed. For example, my first dog as an adult was an AmStaff, and he liked to make this bark/growl/howl sound when he was happy. My daughter has a totally unrelated AmStaff and he does the same thing, and at dog shows it's pretty common to hear the AmStaffs happily vocalizing this way. Now if a German Shepherd or Rottie made that sound, I'd be looking for the nearest exit, and rightfully so!

I can't tell you how many "knowledgeable" dog people think that every dog with a wagging tail is a happy dog . Or in the case of this story, how someone can misinterpret guarding behavior for submissive behavior. Any dog who is in the throes of a high prey drive moment can do something that is totally out of character for that dog on a normal day.

Many people don't realize that a dog will redirect it's aggression onto a person/animal within their grasp if they get worked up by something they can't get to. Example: Dog is fighting with another dog thru a fence. Dog's housemate dog comes up to see what the big fuss is about, dog 1 sees dog 2 approach, turns & attacks dog 2 even though they're good friends. OR the dog's owner comes out and tries to drag their dog back into the house, and the dog turns and bites their human. The biting dog here can get along great with his human and the other dog that lives with him, but he's in a state of high agitation and not thinking clearly and that leads him to act in ways he normally wouldn't.

LGD's are bred to go after threats to their flock; they're not supposed to be passive dogs. But they *are* supposed to be able to differentiate between flock and foe, and to apply the aggression only to the threats to their flock. All dogs can have an off day, and some dogs just aren't cut out for the job to begin with. And really, the way we breed and raise dogs in the USA these days, we've pushed a lot of the instincts out of our working dogs in an effort to make them pets. We tolerate a lot of behaviors in our working dogs that 100 years ago would be cause for culling that dog from service. The lines are blurred, and that doesn't help figure out what's going on when stuff like this happens
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  #38  
Old 01/28/17, 02:19 PM
 
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"And really, the way we breed and raise dogs in the USA these days, we've pushed a lot of the instincts out of our working dogs in an effort to make them pets. We tolerate a lot of behaviors in our working dogs that 100 years ago would be cause for culling that dog from service."

The old timer breeders knew what they were doing and worked toward that goal culling as needed. Today that dedication to breeding for a working purpose is lacking or misdirected by currant trends.
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  #39  
Old 02/05/17, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by farmrbrown View Post
Misreading body language and whatever history they may have had resulted in an accumulation of errors.
Attacking him was however, inexcusable.
I don't think it was inexcusable. A dog should NEVER be prohibited from protecting itself. I also don't think the dog was his, I think the dog acted appropriately for the circumstances and the attitude the man exhibited toward him.

I used to keep wolves and wolfdogs, body language is EVERYTHING, for the human and the dog. If you don't understand what the dog (wolf) is telling you, you're going to get hurt, and that is the TRUTH. I loved my wolves, they communicated honestly and easily with me. Living with them was more like a partnership than a owner/pet relationship, they expected certain things of me, and they understood what I expected of them.

Because of my relationship with my wolves I now view my pet companion dogs differently, I respect them and their needs more than I did before. And I let them communicate with me instead of just giving them orders. I pay more attention to their body language and their expressions. And I never force them to do something that makes them uncomfortable.

I wish I knew how to teach what my wolves taught me, there would be far more happy dogs that don't want to run away, and dog bites from ALL breeds would be at an all-time low. Not to mention I could probably make some money..
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  #40  
Old 02/05/17, 07:27 PM
nobody
 
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Originally Posted by Morledzep View Post
I don't think it was inexcusable. A dog should NEVER be prohibited from protecting itself. I also don't think the dog was his, I think the dog acted appropriately for the circumstances and the attitude the man exhibited toward him.

You're right and I get what you're saying. I was projecting from my own experience with large guard dogs in that, I could never imagine one of mine having an excuse to attack me.
I raise them with firm discipline, but also lots of love.
The only time I had one growl and snap at me, a roommate's GF had been teasing her at dinnertime without my knowledge.
I corrected BOTH bitches immediately and it never happened again.

I think you're right again about it NOT being HIS own dog, but his mother's, next door. I'm sure he was around him all the time but not quite the same as the owner......... good catch.


Quote:
All I meant was that Duke seemed to look at me as his owner.

Quote:
I used to keep wolves and wolfdogs, body language is EVERYTHING, for the human and the dog. If you don't understand what the dog (wolf) is telling you, you're going to get hurt, and that is the TRUTH. I loved my wolves, they communicated honestly and easily with me. Living with them was more like a partnership than a owner/pet relationship, they expected certain things of me, and they understood what I expected of them.

Because of my relationship with my wolves I now view my pet companion dogs differently, I respect them and their needs more than I did before. And I let them communicate with me instead of just giving them orders. I pay more attention to their body language and their expressions. And I never force them to do something that makes them uncomfortable.

I wish I knew how to teach what my wolves taught me, there would be far more happy dogs that don't want to run away, and dog bites from ALL breeds would be at an all-time low. Not to mention I could probably make some money..
Yep.
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