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Guard Animals Guarding the homestead


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  #81  
Old 05/15/13, 03:02 PM
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An alpha does not harass lower ranking pack members while they eat. I understand your concerns but harassing her while she's eating is not the way to deal with it.

Stand outside of the radius where the dog growls. Call her and show her a tasty treat. Let her come and get the treat. Gradually get closer until you can call her name, touch her food, and then toss a treat into the dish. Then briefly lift the dish before setting it back down and adding a treat. Then start all over with a bone. It's a higher value to the the dog so you want to return to it voluntarily leaving the food. Maybe use a less desirable bone the first few times. By the time you get to actually handling her food there will be enough of a positive association that the dog doesn't hold a grudge. It knows that good things happen when you handle it's food so why get mad over it?

I've rehabbed really food aggressive dogs this way. No fighting the dog or the dog getting anxious. You're just changing it's mind about you handling it's food. It learns that you aren't a threat.
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  #82  
Old 05/16/13, 07:49 AM
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Great information. Thanks CathyGo.
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  #83  
Old 05/16/13, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CathyGo View Post

Stand outside of the radius where the dog growls.

.
This is the same thing a lower ranking dog would do to show respect to the alpha.
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  #84  
Old 05/16/13, 10:46 AM
 
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This is the same thing a lower ranking dog would do to show respect to the alpha.
Bingo, we have a bingo!
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  #85  
Old 05/16/13, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Rock View Post
Yep we do view dog behavior differently, my view works very well for me. Brought home a few new working titles from this weekends events
I hope yours works as well for you.
Not sure how working titles, guessing weight pulling, have anything to do with pack behavior/dog behavior but congrats on your wins. I've titled a few dogs myself with out ever having to get physical with them. I guess whatever works keep doing it. I just prefer to not train with intimidation.
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  #86  
Old 05/16/13, 11:20 PM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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ummmm, I must have given the wrong impression. I can actually do anything I want with Valentina's "dry" dog food.

Now, if I don't let go of the "raw" food, I can do whatever I want with it. Since she only gets raw food once a week, this is a rather slow process; however, holding it while she takes a few bites, then removing it, spitting on it and returning it to her seems to be working well...now if you're going to gross out over this spitting, you can blame Rock ..... ROFL (Just kidding, got the idea from Rock but the action is mine!)
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  #87  
Old 05/18/13, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by wendle View Post
This is the same thing a lower ranking dog would do to show respect to the alpha.
True but I don't put as much emphasis on who's "alpha" as I used to do. I'm forming a positive association with me touching their food. I want a dog who is practically begging me to come mess with their food rather than a grudging acceptance because they know I'll put my boot to their butt. It more easily translates to children or less assertive adults handling their food.

I use NILIF and obedience training to keep the pack order solid. I prefer not to have a fight with a dog unless there's no other option. Desensitization gets you further than just telling a dog not to do something. You can punish a dog out of reacting to something but in that dogs mind it's still a very bad thing. I'd rather do the extra work to change how a dog thinks about something than just continue to punish it for reacting.
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  #88  
Old 05/18/13, 02:17 PM
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So I'm wondering how the nilf training works when the 120 lb lgd pup has a squawking chicken in his mouth. Do you wait outside of the growling zone waving a hot dog?
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  #89  
Old 05/18/13, 04:05 PM
 
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Actually Wendle, if the dog likes hot dogs, that might work. But, it is not NILIF. Your dog never should have had that much freedom and should have had more training before you allowed him that close to a chicken.

The bone thing doesn't involve every day kibble, it is a special treat. I might use it to trade with: dog has something in her mouth. I put my hand under her chin while letting her sniff the bone. I say "give". She drops the item in her mouth. I praise, (pause) then give her the bone. Another time, I call her, "Tina, come", she bounds over to me. I use the bone to lure her in front of me and into a sit. Praise, hand her the one. Using the bone as a treat puts you in the alpha position because you control the resources. You make her earn the bone (this would be NILIF) all the while training her to "give", and "come".
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  #90  
Old 05/18/13, 04:10 PM
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ROFL That is an excellent question Wendle; however, CathyGo I really like what you said about emphasizing the positive.

As for using a bone to train, I like that idea too except I don't want Valentina expecting anything raw everytime she does something I want her to do; and I sure cannot put my hand under her chin to tell her to drop a piece of raw meat/bone she already has. (So far I'm liking the way this pup is learning and, despite my ignorance, what I'm doing is working so far.)

Found this occurring yesterday and thought I'ld share as it is a real nice indication Valentina is getting along well with the goats even while still a puppy hanging out most of the time with Cujo. (That black one is a 6 yr old buck; the red roan is a 3 yr old doe.) It was a hot day and it is always cool under that first step to the barn loft. (After finding them there, I raised up the other end too; so now a breeze can blow right through as it is, also, screened.)
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Made my choice...A Bulgarian Karakachan-valentina_goats_2.jpg  
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  #91  
Old 05/18/13, 05:34 PM
 
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She isn't going to expect something raw everytime you are training her to "give", just something. I was just saying that you can use the bone in your training. Nine times she gives up toy for a piece of kibble or cracker, the tenth time you happen to have the bone and she gets a JACKPOT! treat. She earns the treat, whether it is a toy or bone by giving up something, by sitting, by whatever. Once she understands the give game, you can use that training to take away the bone and give it back. Make sense?
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  #92  
Old 05/18/13, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendle View Post
So I'm wondering how the nilf training works when the 120 lb lgd pup has a squawking chicken in his mouth. Do you wait outside of the growling zone waving a hot dog?
NILIF is the overall management of the dog. In a specific and UNANTICIPATED situation you may have to resort to cruder tactics. Obedience training also comes into play here. "Drop it" is very useful and every dog should know it.

When my dog gets something he shouldn't I call my dog over and trade him. He knows I trade up from past experience so even if I don't have food with me he'll willingly give it up. If that fails I use a slip lead and lift the dog up till it realizes it can either choose to keep the chicken or it can choose to breathe. Most dogs choose to breathe. A 120 lb dog would be a bit difficult to lift. A firm smack to the nose might be in order there.

The important part is that I then plan how to teach my dog that chickens are not squeaky toys. I don't just correct him when I catch him fooling with the chickens. I also limit his freedom to go after chickens until he's got the message.

Smacking the dog or forcibly dominating it shouldn't be your first choice.
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  #93  
Old 05/18/13, 11:00 PM
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Thanks for clarifying Maura. I do like the give/take method of training. I tried it out today as I walked thru my orchard. I let Valentina in there with me and she enjoyed exploring the new area. Several times I would call her and, when she trotted over with tail wagging, I gave her a little piece of cheese. Once she found a guinea egg (They will lay under my comfrey quite often.) and I was able to exchange it for a piece of cheese. .................. So far; so good!

Cathy I don't like the choke nor the smack. I wouldn't use either of those with any animal, certainly not with a Karakachan. (My goats have great memories and I suspect this pup does too. I sure wouldn't want any of my animals remembering such a negative act came from me.)
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  #94  
Old 05/19/13, 12:14 AM
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They are last resorts to save an animals life. I've never had to do either with my current dog. If you have to use it more than once in a dogs lifetime something is wrong.

The choking isn't done violently. The handler should be pretty impersonal about it. The dog is just lifted until they decide that they'd like to breathe more than continue to hold onto that object. I only use it for objects like rat poison blocks and I only mentioned a smack to the nose as the scenario was that the dog weighed 120 lb.

I'm glad to see that you don't want to use negative methods as some on this board seem to prefer them.
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  #95  
Old 05/19/13, 07:50 AM
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There are many dogs that value attacking livestock over treats. It is self rewarding. That said, I've never had to resort to the choke down method to stop it. I have had to hold a dog away from me by the collar though to keep from getting bit while protecting someone's sheep from the dog. The dog had zero respect for people and livestock. Sadly the owner eventually resorted to shocking the dog, then gave up on him. I blame her for not developing a good relationship with the dog as a pup.
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  #96  
Old 05/19/13, 11:13 AM
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Ok I do understand "last resort" situations; and I suspect I, myself, would do most anything to protect myself, my dog and whatever is being hurt. (I must add here that I tend to blame the dog's owner for such a need rather than to blame the dog.)

I totally agree good training from puppy hood on up (and even continuing) is a must for quality work in any type guard dog. That is why I get my dogs as early as possible, make positive interactions a priority and demand a mutual respect for all involved. I know this "sounds" complicated; but it really isn't.

Little Valentina does have the propensity to be assertive; and this "could" lead to aggression if not handled well. My efforts are to encourage her assertiveness while teaching her to choose "well" when to be aggressive; and these latter opportunities will become more evident with age.
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  #97  
Old 05/19/13, 10:30 PM
 
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I would never hang a dog. I have had the experience of a Boston terrier latching onto a sheep, as well as my border collie. This is what their ancestors were bred for and they do not let go. I put my finger over the dogs nostrils to block the air (with wool or fur making mouth breathing unsustainable. Obviously, my Bostons do not get adopted by people with livestock, they go to the city. I'm sure you could bond a puppy with your animals.

Mot you are having too much fun with this puppy.
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  #98  
Old 05/20/13, 10:56 AM
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ROFL Maura I totally agree that I'm having a lot of fun with Valentina; but "too much"? Not at all! Her willingness to do what I want is helping to keep her behaving appropriately among the goats and chickens; and since she will eventually be guarding the entire homestead (3 acres in front; 3 acres in back) I want her to know it is a fun place to live. I don't see how she cannot appropriately bond with the goats, too, because during the heat of the day, she is out in the shady spots with them.

You should have seen her this morning. As usual I step out the back door and here both dogs come running for their morning treat. Cujo gets a large teeth-cleaning bone and Valentina gets a large soft vitamin/mineral supplement (about the size of a round quarter). Then after all my milking and other morning chores are done I return to the back porch for Valentina's grooming time. (One day I'll put this on video as it is a wonderful experience for both of us.)

Valentina's grooming consists of my having her "sit" then "lay down" then "roll over" then "be still". Oh yes this pup is doing all of that (between little playful bites). During this time I comb her and search for ticks. She is so patient and obviously enjoys this special time. I can touch her all over, pull her toes apart, hole her mouth open, stroke her belly and literally go over her entire body. (Cujo is jealous but is given his dog food during this time; so that helps keep him from sticking his nose into what I'm doing with Valentina.) After this grooming event, Valentina is given her dry dog food, which right now is a mixture of puppy chow and 2 kinds of grain-free adult chow.

I took my order for some dog clippers out to the mail box (about 300+ feet thru the front gate) and Valentina followed me all the way without once interferring in my walk. She sat at the front gate while I went past it; then we headed back to the house. She comes when I call her and, of course, is given a tiny piece of cheese.

Oh yes, I'm having fun with this puppy; and it is so obvious she, too, is having fun. (I was initially concerned about Valentina's bonding too much with me; however, at her young age, I have put the need for her to feel safe as a priority. I, of course, may be wrong; however, I believe her "inherited" propensities to guard livestock (mixed with our "small" homestead where goats/fowl/dogs roam in such close proximity) will automatically kick in as she grows up.
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  #99  
Old 05/20/13, 11:08 AM
 
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I'm really enjoying your post. I get my pup this evening very excited.
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  #100  
Old 05/20/13, 01:06 PM
 
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Just be Alpha

If you are the established alpha of your pack, you dont have to beg, bribe, wait, choke, strangle, smack or any of the questionable sensitive feel good asking the dog for their permission, training attempts, being put forth. Good pack members give way to the alpha!
PS: These things might work for dogs without much of a pain threshold. I would like to see someone try to hang one of my dogs, I'd sell tickets to that! Lift a big dog up to hang it your going to bring the scary end real close and personal to ya, should be about face to face when their feet leave the ground, that will be fun. Or punch them in the part that latches onto a 1500lb bull, the only part of that I can agree with is the "once in a lifetime", Yeah I pretty well bet you would not ever try that again with the remaining arm.
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