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  #61  
Old 05/10/13, 04:20 PM
motdaugrnds's Avatar
II Corinthians 5:7
 
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Karen!!! Love your testimony!!!

I've seen such actions between dogs too, just never before knew what to call it.
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  #62  
Old 05/13/13, 10:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kareninaustria View Post
Karen emerges from Lurkdom to comment on the alpha role --------!

I once watched my very dominant husky mix bitch getting alpha-rolled by a bullmastiff whom she would not leave in peace (it was a problem since they were together alot at a stable where I worked, and she was always the instigator). They clashed and fought for a few ferocious seconds; I stopped the bullmastiff's owner from stepping in because my dog really needed to be taken down a few notches and I knew the other dog wouldn't take it too far. He pinned her upside down underneath him, between all four of his feet(he was standing), with his mouth around her throat. Neither moved for a good five seconds; the only sound was my dog's little wimpers of submission. Then he released her throat and raised his head slightly, and remained completely still as she struggled her way out from under him.

Both dogs were completely unharmed. My dog never challenged the bullmastiff's authority ever again - all he had to do was look sideways at her and she would slink away. Life at work was much easier!

So for whatever it's worth, the alpha-roll is at least not unheard of among dogs......
I'm sorry Karen, but we have changed the name of it to submission roll so people can sleep better at night. The roll whatever you call it in action. She is the Alpha Bitch and he outweighs her by +- 30lbs.
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  #63  
Old 05/13/13, 01:28 PM
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The point that seems to be missed is that the "alpha roll" is forcing your dog onto its back, the key point is the force being used and the fact its often used as a punishment. The "submissive roll" is a dog rolling over on its own, a dog taking a submissive posture to maintain stability in the pack structure. It's not just a name change its two different behaviors. Look at your own picture the one dog is already in a submissive stance. It's not being rolled its taking submissive posture in play. Most dominance and pack ranking is established through play with dog, not through force such as these two dogs are doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=x1e5jQYHKgU

Karen can call that an alpha roll but really what it was was a test of dominance and when the husky got bulldozed by the mastiff it decided it better submit real quick or get killed. Much like these puppies. Is this what your trying to refer to as a alpha roll?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=x1e5jQYHKgU
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  #64  
Old 05/13/13, 03:16 PM
 
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From what I could see in the encounter between my husky and the mastiff, he pretty much PUT her on her back and held her down using his superior size and strength; of course somewhere in that process she must have submitted and stopped resisting but when the fight started she definitely had every intention to end up the victor! It was the only time in her entire life that I saw her be compelled to submit to another dog.
So, I don't really know what term should apply; all I know is she expected to set him straight about who was boss and got her clock thoroughly cleaned instead (and experienced a major attitude adjustment in the process)!
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  #65  
Old 05/13/13, 05:52 PM
 
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This breed is totally new to me, they sure are cute as puppies. How large do they get?
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  #66  
Old 05/13/13, 09:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasoninMN View Post
The point that seems to be missed is that the "alpha roll" is forcing your dog onto its back, the key point is the force being used and the fact its often used as a punishment. The "submissive roll" is a dog rolling over on its own, a dog taking a submissive posture to maintain stability in the pack structure. It's not just a name change its two different behaviors. Look at your own picture the one dog is already in a submissive stance. It's not being rolled its taking submissive posture in play. Most dominance and pack ranking is established through play with dog, not through force such as these two dogs are doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=x1e5jQYHKgU
I said submission roll, (not submissive) aint no play going on here. He tripped her trigger and is trying to get away, neither of them look very playful to me. Saw it again today Adult female pin a pup and hold it on its back mouth around it's neck, when pup stopped the struggle, she let it up.
(Great video, proves my point even up to the lift the head show the throat, not so pronounced in pups as in a seasoned pack alpha, but the subtle signals are there none the less)
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  #67  
Old 05/13/13, 10:02 PM
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I'm wondering in the "alpha roll" if the person applying it needs to also bite the throat and growl while turning the dog over. I'd like to see a video of that. Or does the dog simply give up once he is on his back?
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  #68  
Old 05/13/13, 10:51 PM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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ROFL Wendle, you'll never see me putting my face that close to a growling dog. (Even a puppy like mine could cause some real damage. Holding Valentina's head between my two hands, looking right into her "glaring" eyes and growling...my growling...was as far as I'm taking the alpha "roll"! And that worked wonders the one time I "instinctively" did it!) ROFL

Gave Valentina and Cujo another raw bone (with meat) today. As usual I had Cujo sit for his; yet still he just held it ... not eating it. I had Valentina "sit" before I let her have hers...oh yes, this puppy did "sit". Then when I gave her the raw bone, I continued to hold it, not really letting her have total control over it. She didn't mind until I started to hold the other end of it, then she growled a little, but not enough to concern me. So I went ahead and took hold of the other end. At that time I had both my hands on her bone holding it while she chewed on it. At times she would look up at me and I could praise her as I took the bone and gave it back, still holding it. I only did this a short time then let her take total control over it. She laid down right there where she was and enjoyed it. (I am thinking my holding the raw meat let her know I was in control even though she was the one eating the meat...Ideas about this would be appreciated.)
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  #69  
Old 05/14/13, 12:06 AM
 
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I did put my face that close to a growling dog and do just that, but it was a reaction to meeting my younger sister's rescued 85 lb German shepherd who was both abused, and extremely aggressive toward large males.

I stopped by to visit her shortly after she moved into her own apartment (that she really couldn't afford as a starving college student, & wasn't supposed to have dogs at that complex either), and she'd responded to an ad for a dog that needed a home or would be put down because it was too aggressive. I met her at the front door, where she was trying to block the dog behind her who was snarling and growling at me, while she's trying to calm the dog down by voice command, and at the same time warn me off.

I said I can take care of this just fine, pushed her aside, and lunged at the dog, who jumped back, and ran to the kitchen. I gave chase, and cornered her at the fridge, and turned her over and bit her. Not enough to draw blood, but enough to let her know I was there, & wouldn't accept her aggression without answer. I then let her up, put a leash on her and took her for a walk. She was my friend for life thereafter, even though she would still attack most others without warning, if not constrained.

Unfortunately, there was no one recording the event, and I sure as heck had my hands full for the first part trying to keep ahead of her reflexes and teeth, but I don't regret it. It sure scared my little sister pretty bad at first, though, but after it was done, she just said I must be crazier than her dog was...

She was one of the most dangerous dogs I've ever encountered, because she wouldn't give any audible warning if there wasn't any barrier to her target, she'd just attack, and only bark or growl if she couldn't reach her target. My sister eventually got evicted from the complex after the maintenance man met the dog in an attempt to change her furnace filter, & she had to move back in with the parents. She move out a few years after, and left the dog with them.

My dad kept it for a few more years, and then needed to find another home for it, so we started looking, while I paid for boarding it (he had to leave the state, and there was no one available to watch the dog). This was in a fairly high-crime neighborhood in St. Louis, and although all of his neighbors were terrified of that dog, they didn't want it but they didn't want him to get rid of it, 'cause the crime rate in that block dropped sharply while he had it.

We ended up taking her to a small town vet that Dad grew up with, and after the vet claimed our description of her behavior must be an exaggeration, we left the dog with him for a bit, and he told us he'd never seen a dog trying to chew through a chain link fence to get at someone before - until his daughter walked past that kennel... After that, he found a junk yard owner who was looking for a guard dog due to vandalism problems, & as far as we know, it was a perfect match
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  #70  
Old 05/14/13, 09:57 AM
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Allen, I totally agree with your sister's evaluation of your being crazier than that dog! You must be quite confident in your strength and agility too!
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  #71  
Old 05/14/13, 10:20 AM
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Crazy is right. The shepherd is an extreme and dangerous case. If it takes all that to do the alpha roll properly, then why bother. A person can take charge without all that. Motdaugrnds, personally I do not accept growling at me. I would have immediately taken the bone and gotten seriously on that dog's case. It might mean a smack on the nose, I know this will offend some pp people, but I feel it isn't a whole lot different than another dog snapping at the offender. It is especially important to know your place with a large dog who can be dangerous.
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  #72  
Old 05/14/13, 11:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendle View Post
I'm wondering in the "alpha roll" if the person applying it needs to also bite the throat and growl while turning the dog over. I'd like to see a video of that. Or does the dog simply give up once he is on his back?
When ya get in that spot ya do what is needed. Years ago my buddies almost 80lb pitbull named Crunch. Made a first attempt charge at me, what am I gonna do I was 100lbs heavier then (about 355lbs) no way I could get away.
I snatched him up and head butted him as hard as I could, then dropped him. After that we became fast friends and no matter where I was at their house he wanted to hang out with me. No video's (and I have been known to bite a dog)
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  #73  
Old 05/14/13, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock View Post
I said submission roll, (not submissive) aint no play going on here. He tripped her trigger and is trying to get away, neither of them look very playful to me. Saw it again today Adult female pin a pup and hold it on its back mouth around it's neck, when pup stopped the struggle, she let it up.
(Great video, proves my point even up to the lift the head show the throat, not so pronounced in pups as in a seasoned pack alpha, but the subtle signals are there none the less)
I guess we view dog behavior quite differently. The pups not showing the "alpha" its throat to show its vulnerability that would be romanticized dog behavior from a fictional dog book, Jack London's Call of the Wild and Whitefang etc. It cracks me up that people actually think dogs are aware of their anatomy.
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  #74  
Old 05/14/13, 12:09 PM
 
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I think the "showing of throat" is really an attempt to look away from the other dog as well as get the head as low as possible, on the ground.

I prefer to use training rather than threats. A little training goes a long way. I find long line work to be invaluable. After that, NILIF. Both of these involve improving the dog's status (up or down) and teaching good behavior.
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  #75  
Old 05/14/13, 06:29 PM
Katie
 
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Originally Posted by MollysMom View Post
This breed is totally new to me, they sure are cute as puppies. How large do they get?
I think I remember reading between 110 or so up to 130 or 140 pounds depending on male or female I believe.
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  #76  
Old 05/14/13, 11:32 PM
 
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It probably doesn't require all that, & FWIW, at that time, I'd never heard of anything called an alpha roll. I just reacted in a manner that I thought would effectively communicate to the dog, and I guess I hit it out of the park with that one. She was NEVER aggressive with me thereafter, and she would stop & listen to me even if she was in the midst of attacking someone else, which came in handy if I was around at the right time.

A smack on the nose wouldn't have reached her, and doing so would make it ill-advised to turn your back on her afterwards, because she really was dangerous.

The bits of the back-story that I was able to gather are that she was purchased from a breeder by a small family where the husband would occasionally beat the dog, believing it would make her meaner, 'cause he wanted a mean dog.... She did turn mean, and was also very protective of their child (which is usually good), but in her case, a neighbor's dog walked past, and she just killed it. No warning or hesitation, and then tried to attack the neighbor.

They returned it to the breeder with the excuse that it was "too mean", and the breeder checked out the dog, and realized that they'd never be able to sell this dog to anyone else, so they placed an ad to give it away (out of their area), because they were under pressure to put her down, & they didn't really want to. My (bleeding-heart-liberal-...) sister who couldn't hardly afford to feed herself, saw this ad, felt she had to 'save' this animal from certain death, and answered the ad. (My sister has since grown up, and become a responsible adult & we're on good terms )

It was an AKC registered purebred, and a beautiful animal, but she changed the name, & destroyed the papers, in the hopes that no one would ever connect that dog with previous behavior or incidents.

Everything did turn out OK in the end though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wendle View Post
Crazy is right. The shepherd is an extreme and dangerous case. If it takes all that to do the alpha roll properly, then why bother. A person can take charge without all that. Motdaugrnds, personally I do not accept growling at me. I would have immediately taken the bone and gotten seriously on that dog's case. It might mean a smack on the nose, I know this will offend some pp people, but I feel it isn't a whole lot different than another dog snapping at the offender. It is especially important to know your place with a large dog who can be dangerous.
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  #77  
Old 05/15/13, 12:13 AM
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Well, I'm certainly learning a lot from this little girl. She's sorta like a 2 yr old (human) right now. She is mostly acting out instinctively and exploring the world around her with enthusiasm. She is needing to be protected mor than she is needing correction right now...and no, this does not mean she does not get corrected at times.

It is so obvious she is learning words and enjoying her explorations. I can hand-feed her and she is careful not to bite my fingers. I can pet her and she is leaning in for more pets instead of trying to play with my hand, although she still does at times. I can walk and she is careful not to get too close to my feet. I can call her name and she comes to me. David can now walk her around the parameter of our place without her pulling a temper tantrum wanting off the leash. I can go thru a gate and she sits (with Cujo) waiting for me to go thru first then give permission for them to come through. She is eating well, knows where the clean water is, walks (even plays) among the goats and fowl without problems. I'm quite pleased with this little puppy.

Today I saw Cujo take Valentina's favorite toy (not the one I paid $5 for; but one of my old socks with a knot tied in it), tease her with it and then run. She chased him and, if she stopped, Cujo would return to tease her with that sock again. (This was really something for Cujo because his favorite toy is a rubber ball that is too large for Valentina to enjoy.

One thing that is concerning me somewhat is the time she spends with Cujo. I would prefer she spent more time with the goats; however, when I stop and realize how young she is, my concern dissipates somewhat. I'm thinking her "baby" months should focus more on her learning it is ok to think for herself and feeling safe to explore. As she grows, I suspect the natural characteristics of her breed will start showing up. Thus, her bonding to Cujo and to myself is ok at this young age. Cujo will put her in her place should she get too rough (with those little sharp teeth) and so will I; and I think that is a very important thing for her to know.

Also, I'm heavier on a "positive" approach to training as I'ld much prefer she learn what is ok for her to do so she can enjoy life on our homestead more. At this age, she really isn't needing a lot of negatives. (Did catch her in the orchard today without permission; so took her back out the way she got in, then opened the door and had her wait a bit before I gave her permission to enter.)

I do have another concern. Cujo has never left our homestead nor even tried to jump our parameter fencing, even when he's chasing squirrels. However, when I let him in the orchard/garden area, he leaps over the 3-1/2 ft divider fence without problems. I really don't want Valentina to learn to do that!
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  #78  
Old 05/15/13, 06:54 AM
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So does Cujo & Valentina stay with your goats?
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  #79  
Old 05/15/13, 08:06 AM
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All animals/fowl on this place pretty much stay together. The goats will lay around in the back or front yard with both Cujo and Valentina amongst them. The goats even come up onto the back porch with both dogs around.

Valentina will not venture...as yet...over 100-200 feet from the house by herself; however, she will walk with David and play with Cujo at distances farther than that. (I think the older she gets, the farther she will go; I just hope she will know by then to stop at the parameter fencing she and David have been walking.)

Valentina is NOT sleeping in the barn, though she wonders in and out of it. I really don't think this is a bad thing at this time because of her size/age.

If some predator shows up at our fencing (or walks down the road in front of our property) Cujo will bark and charge. When he does this, all the goats look up and, from wherever they are in the pasture, will head toward the barn. Valentina will bark once, then sit and watch it all greeting the goats as they get closer. (Valentina is usually in the yard at such times.)

Valentina has not stayed with the goats as much as I've wanted her to; and as mentioned above, this does concern me. However, she is still just a baby and her feeling safe to explore and learn is a priority to me. (Maybe I'm wrong about this being a priority with an LGD; but my place is not so large that she would need to stay with the goats out in the pasture in order to protect them, this being because she can be in our front and/or back yard and still see the goats/fowl.)
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  #80  
Old 05/15/13, 10:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JasoninMN View Post
I guess we view dog behavior quite differently. The pups not showing the "alpha" its throat to show its vulnerability that would be romanticized dog behavior from a fictional dog book, Jack London's Call of the Wild and Whitefang etc. It cracks me up that people actually think dogs are aware of their anatomy.
Yep we do view dog behavior differently, my view works very well for me. Brought home a few new working titles from this weekends events
I hope yours works as well for you.
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