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  #41  
Old 05/06/13, 10:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motdaugrnds View Post
Rock, will you go into detail as to how (the step-by-step process) you "...alpha roll..." (think like a dog) them?

I think I'm doing it ok; but seems to me when I grab this puppy by the neck, I am being aggressive and wouldn't this be teaching the dog by example? (This is still not clear enough for me to be comfortable that I'm training correctly.)

Not sure I should permit this, i.e. while playing with puppy and a toy, letting pup get hold of the toy, struggle slightly and, then when pup is starting to pull aggressively on toy, letting go to let pup know it can win.....? This is one way my son and I have worked with other dogs I've had; but not real sure this is ok with this Karakachan. Should we ever let this pup win?
Like I said, if what your doing is working for you keep at it.
I just roll the pup by putting my hand on the flank, slide my hand up and towards me, real quick and hold them, when they quit the struggle I take it the other direction, by letting them up & get under chin at my throat. Translate that into words: Look pup ya screwed up we cant have that type of action (whatever it was) in this pack, it will be delt with instantly and not to your liking. Yes you are a part of this pack, it is my job to nurture protect and guide you into becoming a quality pack member. I accept you and trust you with my life and the future of the pack by allowing you access to my most vulnerable spot. No violence or aggression, just control, never mad or upset.
You can build some great skills by playing tug. Again I'm Alpha all toys belong to me, but I do let them win at times and applaud it. I also use their wanting to play to teach them (in your case the bone) I would be using the same word for release of the toy as I would of the bone. I would say it 1 time, open their mouth get the toy. I never repeat myself over and over, or play the bride game, for me it is dogs name-command-action.
The 1st few times I'll remove it and go back to playing. After they have 2-4 times released the object on command in the same day, (may take a few days a week depending on the dog they are all different and have their own personality) I know they understand what that command means. I say their name and the command (so they know I'm talking to them) if they fail to release we are done playing for that session. The more they respond correctly to the command, the more times I'll go thru the cycle and let them win. They gain strength confidence and attentive behavior I get a dog that can be hanging by it's full bodyweight working a bite, that will just stop.
PS for all the naysayers, there is a guy that made millions training dogs, it was not you, and he uses the Alpha roll. they call him Dog whisper!
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  #42  
Old 05/06/13, 10:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Maura View Post
Don't alpha roll your dog. Stop using the scruff of the neck in a few weeks as she will be too old for the effect you want. When you do grab the scruff, give a little shake and drop her. Don't hold her. Mother dog gives a little shake.

When you take away the bone, or anything else, use a cue word. "Tina, give." Use a normal tone of voice. Always use a normal tone, not a threatening tone. Trade her the bone for a little tidbit, then tell her "take" and let her take the bone. Play this game throughout the day, not just with the bone. It is a marvelous way to teach her to give up anything in her mouth and know that you are not playing keep-away. You are also teaching her to "take" something, which could come in handy.
I agree, the alpha roll is something used by adult wolves on lower ranking wolves challenging their authority. It is also the last step before a full on attack intended to kill. It is also something they're taught as they grow. Unless its an adult raised by wolves, the dog won't understand alpha roll.
It's like choke slamming your kid. They might do something that merits it (what I'm not sure, but I am open to the possibility), but as a standard punishment/correction it'll do more harm than good.
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  #43  
Old 05/06/13, 11:59 PM
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Now this is getting rather confusing as you appear to be contradicting each other; and since you all are accustomed to training these types of dogs, I am beginning to think one way probably works as good as another....all depending on the character of the dog one is working with. Is this a fair assumption?

Valentina is not playing when she lets me know that bone is something she wants to claim as hers. It does not look like I can just put my hand down and take away the bone without holding her in some way that will keep her from biting me. Thus, the scruff of the neck hold! I hold her only long enough to say, "Valentina, drop it!" take the bone out of her mouth, dropping it on the ground, then picking it up and holding it out of her reach. (She is not as aggressive when I do this with a toy and I've been able to get her to calm down and even sit in order to get the toy back.) With a raw bone, she is more aggressive and I have to use a calm voice with more forceful manerisms.

During her play/train time, what seems to be more helpful is when I take her little face in both my hands and look her straight in the eyes, waiting for her to look away first. Then I praise her, let her go and give her a treat.

Maybe I'm making this harder than it needs to be. I'm just so unsure and yet I feel it is important this uncertainty not show up. Even if I'm wrong in what I do, I believe what I do needs to come across as right to Valentina....if that makes any sense.

It rained so much today that I was able to sit on the back porch awhile with both Cujo and Valentina near. Cujo wanted hugs while Valentina wanted to play/bite; however, during this time I was able to get Valentina to stop biting at my hand and only put her teeth on the toy. Maybe my ignorance is showing up again but I think this as quite an accomplishment.

Please know pros/cons about what I'm doing are all welcomed. I take constructive criticisms very well and learn from those with more experience in these matters than I. I do appreciate all the information each of you is giving me. (I sure do like the give/take interaction you mentioned Maura.)
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  #44  
Old 05/07/13, 12:57 AM
 
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The alpha roll was "invented" in the 1970s by people that
1. Believed dogs=wolves
2. Observed the behavior in captive held wolf packs (however it is virtually nonexistent in observed wild wolf packs)

It was made popular by the monks of new skete in 76. It was recanted by them in 2002. It was later tied to causing aggression in a 2009 study.

Think of it like spanking a child with a belt. My mom used it all the time so it didn't matter. My dad OTH used it MAYBE 1/2 dozen times so each time he did I knew it was something important and he always explained the seriousness (sometimes life threatening) of my misbehavior. So when I compare it to a choke slam, I'm not stretching things. It is in the wolf world an act just short of killing. In dogs it is a step in the killing process and doesn't happen unless they are actually trying to kill the other dog. You are actually safer and less damaging to the dog mentally if you use the old 1960s rolled up newspaper.
If you MUST use canine style corrections use a quick grab over the snout (this is actually how dogs & wolves both correct pups that get out of hand), but keep the fingers straight. If you curl the fingers you might get bit or nipped.
And the dog whisperer has been bitten several times by his own dogs.
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  #45  
Old 05/07/13, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post

Think of it like spanking a child with a belt. My mom used it all the time so it didn't matter. My dad OTH used it MAYBE 1/2 dozen times so each time he did I knew it was something important and he always explained the seriousness (sometimes life threatening) of my misbehavior. So when I compare it to a choke slam, I'm not stretching things. It is in the wolf world an act just short of killing. In dogs it is a step in the killing process and doesn't happen unless they are actually trying to kill the other dog. You are actually safer and less damaging to the dog mentally if you use the old 1960s rolled up newspaper.
If you MUST use canine style corrections use a quick grab over the snout (this is actually how dogs & wolves both correct pups that get out of hand), but keep the fingers straight. If you curl the fingers you might get bit or nipped.
And the dog whisperer has been bitten several times by his own dogs.
Well said! I have heard the grab over the snout too, and have seen my own dogs do the same. I have never alpha rolled any of my dogs. I haven't even alpha rolled difficult dogs in for training . If you think about it the alpha dog cannot physically grab the legs and flip another dog over like a person can, they don't have hands. I think it's more like the alpha dog causes the other dog to submit , then it goes down on it's own. It's mostly attitude, then of course the willingness and ability to back it up.
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  #46  
Old 05/07/13, 08:17 AM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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POPS2, I actually used that over-the-snout hold last night when my pup was starting to play too rough with my hand instead of the toy. I instinctively knew to keep my fingers straight and it worked real well. I did not know about the alpha roll and the information you provided is very welcome.

Wendle, I agree about "attitude" as I've seen my dogs (one was an alpha I could never get bred, then lost her to a mocassin) try to stair each other down; and it was always the dominant one who won the battle, often without actually fighting.


This morning I woke to the sound of little hooves bouncing off the wall of the barn. David rushed out and found Valentina misbehaving. He grabbed her by the back of the neck, shook her, then dropped her and walked out. As he exited, he saw Valentina peeping around the legs of a grown doe looking at him. By that time I was out the door to see what was going on and tend the animals. Valentina ignored me and walked around inside the barn amongst all the goats and not once tried to chase or threaten them. (I sure am thankful Valentina learns quickly and was so thankful David knew how to deal with the situation.)

I have caught Valentina pooping twice in a particular area of my barn; and since my does kid in that barn and I like to keep the entire barn as clean as I can, this is not acceptable. Both times I caught her pooping, I took her by the back of the neck, put her nose in the poop, then shook her saying "no" in rough voice. Then I sat her down and she watched as I picked up the poop and put it outside the barn. (Golly, never had to barn-break a pup/dog before; so have no idea if this is going to work or not.)
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  #47  
Old 05/07/13, 10:19 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Alexandria PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
The alpha roll was "invented" in the 1970s by people that
1. Believed dogs=wolves
2. Observed the behavior in captive held wolf packs (however it is virtually nonexistent in observed wild wolf packs)

It was made popular by the monks of new skete in 76. It was recanted by them in 2002. It was later tied to causing aggression in a 2009 study.

Think of it like spanking a child with a belt. My mom used it all the time so it didn't matter. My dad OTH used it MAYBE 1/2 dozen times so each time he did I knew it was something important and he always explained the seriousness (sometimes life threatening) of my misbehavior. So when I compare it to a choke slam, I'm not stretching things. It is in the wolf world an act just short of killing. In dogs it is a step in the killing process and doesn't happen unless they are actually trying to kill the other dog. You are actually safer and less damaging to the dog mentally if you use the old 1960s rolled up newspaper.
If you MUST use canine style corrections use a quick grab over the snout (this is actually how dogs & wolves both correct pups that get out of hand), but keep the fingers straight. If you curl the fingers you might get bit or nipped.
And the dog whisperer has been bitten several times by his own dogs.
That is the wikapedia version, anyone can edit that site to make it say what they like? (think I'm kidding read the history now right here I invented it back in the 70's)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

So don't believe everything ya heard on the yagoogly box, I'll change that back shortly
I could list National breed clubs that use Alpha roll and have it posted on their site. (Start with the little guys, West highland Whites, and work your way up) Bottom line, the old line 3 dog trainers the only thing any 2 of them can agree upon, is the 3rd is doing it wrong.
I do what works for me, did not tell them they should do or change anything, I said "As for the correction you do what is working for you, I like to alpha roll them"and as you can plainly see told them 1mo-gen "Do what is working for you".
Anyone that has been working with dogs for an extended period of time is appt to be bitten from trainers to vet to groomers to judges, goes with the turf. Dogs dont have thumbs to thumb jab ya in the neck, so they use what they got. I'm way more surprised by anyone in dogs full time for 10 years that has not been bitten.
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  #48  
Old 05/07/13, 11:27 AM
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Show me one actual video of a "alpha roll" performed by another dog or a wolf and I will believe it exist. It's a result of misinterpreted canine behavior, where a subordinate animal rolls over and submits to a animal of higher dominance. In the 1940's animal behaviorist Rudolph Schenkel placed captive wolves from various packs into the same enclosure and basically watched them fight. Yeah when two wolves are fighting the stronger is going to knock the weaker off its feet eventually and beat the crap out of it. If its lucky the stronger one will quite attacking if it submits, in the wild wolves often kill one another. This was not an observation of pack structure or dominance but instead more like a organized wolf fight. That's a fact, the research document is out there to be read. The term alpha roll was coined from this "research."

The dog whisper is good at marketing himself, he does not whisper anything. Most of his "saved" dogs are shocked robots but they don't show that on t.v.
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  #49  
Old 05/07/13, 12:14 PM
 
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Wolves do not alpha roll. What you will observe is younger wolves rolling over in a submissive gesture to higher ranking wolves. You see puppies do this with dogs, especially stranger dogs. As Jason points out, it is not normal social behavior between adult pack members. It was misunderstood. Using it on a dog can get you bitten. Just don't do it.

If you follow a training protocol, like I wrote, trading the bone for a treat, you will be farther ahead. What you are doing is expecting the puppy to "know" what you want. She doesn't know what you want and is acting like any normal aggressive breed. She may also think you are playing tug of war. Now is the right time to teach her to take a treat from a hand without taking the hand off. Hold onto the treat until she licks your hand, then give it to her.

You have a wonderful but aggressive puppy, think in terms of "training" rather than "dominating".
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  #50  
Old 05/07/13, 12:27 PM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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I see no need for conflict between any of you. What I heard Rock say was for me to "...do what works..." (for me and my specific puppy). Every pup/dog is different as children are different.

I've seen dogs fight and when one turns submissive, it often rolls over on its back; so maybe that is what some may be referring to as an "alpha roll". I really don't care!!

I'm learning from each of you what you have each experienced and then I am making my own decision as to what to do with this pup. I am grateful for all experiences/information shared. You do not need to agree with each other for me to be thankful. I take what I hear, test it on my pup and make my own decision as to whether or not it works.

Valentina is coming along fine...knock on wood; so I must be doing some things correctly; and I appreciate very much what each one on this thread has shared with me. (One person's experiences being different from another's is what makes communications educational.)

Maura, I really appreciate your specifics about giving a pup a treat. Thank you.

..........ummm.......... anyone ever barn-break a puppy?
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  #51  
Old 05/07/13, 12:30 PM
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I see issues coming for you if you continue on this path.

First of all you are over analyzing her, yes she is an LGD breed and maybe thinking and such but first an foremost she is a canine carnivore baby.

You need to teach her commands like " leave it" instead of constantly scruffing her.

Rubbing her nose in poop teaches her what exactly?? Nothing, it teaches her that if she relives herself you are going to come along and put poop in her nose. Why, she has no clue.
If you actually catch her pooping, pick her up and put her outside the barn, she poops you praise her.
It seems from your posts that there is a lot of negative reinforcement and you don't seem to post about positive. You also cannot correct something unless you catch her in the actual act, she does not know why half an hour ago she pooped, or ate the hose and now you are going to yell at her and scruff her what you are angry about.

Do not alpha roll her, first it doesn't work, second you know nothing about it and it will create more problems for you.
Stop the massive amounts of scruffing. Obedience train her, teach her to come, leave it, sit, etc like a regular dog, she is still a dog even if she is an LGD with a job. She needs to mind you not fear you.

If I caught my young LGD messing with chickens they got corrected. If I found a dead chicken then I did not correct them, I put the chicken in the middle of the yard and each time they showed interest they were firmly told to " leave it!!" With training they grew out of it. It was during 4 to 6 months old I had issues with them and adolecent chickens.

My boys eat raw plus kibble, the eat raw chicken legs, thighs, turkey legs and etc, this does not make them associate it with my poultry and they do not eat them. I do not feed just bones with meat on them because there is not enough on there to support their weight of 120-150 lbs.

She is not going to be perfect again she is a baby, but she needs positive feedback, training and handling. Yes she needs correction but if that is the bulk of her training she is not going to turn out to be the dog you want. You need to relax, play with her sometimes, brush her, pet her, handle her feet so she allows nail clipping, train her to walk on a leash so when she needs to go to the vet there is not an alligator on the other end of the leash.
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  #52  
Old 05/07/13, 01:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasoninMN View Post
Show me one actual video of a "alpha roll" performed by another dog or a wolf and I will believe it exist. It's a result of misinterpreted canine behavior, where a subordinate animal rolls over and submits to a animal of higher dominance. In the 1940's animal behaviorist Rudolph Schenkel placed captive wolves from various packs into the same enclosure and basically watched them fight. Yeah when two wolves are fighting the stronger is going to knock the weaker off its feet eventually and beat the crap out of it. If its lucky the stronger one will quite attacking if it submits, in the wild wolves often kill one another. This was not an observation of pack structure or dominance but instead more like a organized wolf fight. That's a fact, the research document is out there to be read. The term alpha roll was coined from this "research."

The dog whisper is good at marketing himself, he does not whisper anything. Most of his "saved" dogs are shocked robots but they don't show that on t.v.
Okay here is 1, and we can call it submissive roll, the 2 have to work together or aggressive/submissive or it would be a bloodbath

http://youtu.be/osR1_LzZjdQ
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  #53  
Old 05/07/13, 01:50 PM
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My point exactly, the dog dropped before the other even touched it, misinterpreted canine behavior. Thanks for proving my point.
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  #54  
Old 05/07/13, 02:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JasoninMN View Post
My point exactly, the dog dropped before the other even touched it, misinterpreted canine behavior. Thanks for proving my point.
Well you can see it way better than I can, to dark for me to see if they made contact or not.
I see a dog putting another one on the ground, the one being put done gave way. Thus eliminating confrontation.
Now I'm going to undo that think in Wikapedia
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  #55  
Old 05/07/13, 03:32 PM
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Seems to prove my thinking, i.e. that a submissive dog will turn over itself looking as though the dominant had given it an alpha roll.
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  #56  
Old 05/07/13, 03:32 PM
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Thaiblue12, thank you very much. You're right. I have a tendancy to over analyze things. I actually do other things besides scruffing her, i.e. my "uh uh" in a rough voice is working well and does mean "stop what you're doing". She appears to be understanding this.

ROFL you may be right about the poop. I was told years ago that is how you house-break a pup; so was simply doing it out of habit...you know, i.e. because mother did it! I agree that catching her in the act is when to train her; and this is the only time I actually correct any of my animals.

Well, I have posted some corrections; but if you re-read some of my posts I believe you will find many positive comments about her behavior too. I guess it does appear there is a massive amount of scruffing; however, if I were to put a percentage on it relative to how many times she gets praise, the percentage would actually be quite low. Yes, I'm teaching her some obedience...though very little at this time. She will get more as her attention span can handle it. (I sure like your way of training with chickens. So far my "uh uh" is working; but she is still a baby. A little later I may need to use a technique like yours. Thanks for telling me about it.) No need to be concerned that she is not getting positives. She definately is as I actually tend to lean more heavily on the positive interactions. I really enjoy grooming her, playing with her feet, rubbing her belly and just hugging her. David already has her working well on a leash as he circles the parameter of our 6 acres each day.

Yes I'm heading into town tomorrow to stock up on animal feed and will be picking up some high quality dry dog food for her and Cujo. I will also continue feeding them the raw meats, though still not sure if Cujo will eat it.
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  #57  
Old 05/09/13, 01:41 AM
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Update ....

Took Valentina to see the vet today. He did a complete physical, a complete blood workup, did a fecal sample (found no worms at all) & gave her a 5-way shot (next shot due in few weeks). Vet said she was a very healthy pup! Of course, all there ooed and aahed at seeing such a breed!

Since we try to take care of all our needs on one trip, David picked up his meds and I got my eyes examined. We also stopped by Tractor Supply and Wal-Marts. This meant a very, very long time for a 10 wk old puppy to be on a leash in a van (from 11 am to 8 pm). She was excellent! (David, of course, had been training her to the leash for some time now; so I have no doubt that was a tremendous help. However, her ability to recognize her name, stop when she heard "uh uh" and enjoy being praised contributed to her calm behavior throughout this time.)

She was walked several times (one of us would stay with her while the other did what needed to be done, alternating at times) and peed twice (once on the grass outside my opthamologist's office and once inside Tractor Supply while people were gathered around her oooing and aahing her).

All in all a very well behaved little puppy and quite glad to see Cujo upon our return. (As David and I were bringing in the groceries, I saw Valentina step into the house. I said "You get out of there!". She looked at me, turned around and came right back out, getting praise while her tail wagged. I sure am enjoying the intelligence of this pup.
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  #58  
Old 05/09/13, 06:24 PM
 
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The more she gets out into the world, the more confident she will be and the easier to handle over all. I love to see puppies out and about. If you know any people who don't look like you (different race, smell different due to different food, beards, short, tall, etc) be sure and have her visit them. I haven't liked some of what you've done, but you seem to be considering the posts to you, that is quite a lot. I'd forgotten about toenails. You may never need to clip them, but it doesn't hurt to handle the feet and pretend to clip them. I'm glad you are enjoying your puppy.
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  #59  
Old 05/09/13, 06:25 PM
 
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Maybe it's time to start a new thread? The Saga of Valentina?
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  #60  
Old 05/10/13, 02:24 PM
 
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Karen emerges from Lurkdom to comment on the alpha role --------!

I once watched my very dominant husky mix bitch getting alpha-rolled by a bullmastiff whom she would not leave in peace (it was a problem since they were together alot at a stable where I worked, and she was always the instigator). They clashed and fought for a few ferocious seconds; I stopped the bullmastiff's owner from stepping in because my dog really needed to be taken down a few notches and I knew the other dog wouldn't take it too far. He pinned her upside down underneath him, between all four of his feet(he was standing), with his mouth around her throat. Neither moved for a good five seconds; the only sound was my dog's little wimpers of submission. Then he released her throat and raised his head slightly, and remained completely still as she struggled her way out from under him.

Both dogs were completely unharmed. My dog never challenged the bullmastiff's authority ever again - all he had to do was look sideways at her and she would slink away. Life at work was much easier!

So for whatever it's worth, the alpha-roll is at least not unheard of among dogs......
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