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  #21  
Old 04/27/13, 07:53 PM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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Update:

Started feeding both Cujo and Valentina near each other so as to help them learn to negotiate. As you can see by picture, so far; so good. However, this morning I gave them each the bones of two hocks I cooked for dinner last night. I, of course, ask Cujo to sit and wait while I gave Valentina hers; then gave Cujo his. A moment later, I reached to take Valentina's away from her and she let me know (beyond a doubt) she didn't want me to take it. I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and took the bone anyway; then I sat her down and held the bone out of her reach (while I maintained a hold on her) until she knew she wasn't getting it until I decided she could have it. Then I let her have it and let go of her neck. She started enjoying it again when I started to take it away again; and again she let me know that was not ok. Again, I grabbed her by the neck and took the bone anyway. This occurred 4 times until I was sure she was better understanding I was in charge of whether or not she got it. Then I let her keep it. (Valentine chewed the meat off that bone as though she had been doing it all her little life.)
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Made my choice...A Bulgarian Karakachan-april-2013-both_eating.jpg  
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  #22  
Old 04/28/13, 09:10 AM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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Update:
I have now taken the wire off from the little shelf I'm building Valentina. She has been staying out all night for about 2 days now. I still check on her throughout the night and have found her wondering in and out the barn and sleeping on Cujo's bed on the back porch. It is apparent the goats are more tolerant of her as they no longer back away from her when she approaches them.

Yesterday, when David took her on the parameter walk, Valentina was on a leash; and, though there were times when I saw authority issues, it was minor; and for the most part, Valentina trotted along beside (or in back) of David throughout the entire walk. Then yesterday evening, I saw Valentina circling the house all by herself. The way she was doing it looked so strange that I watched for a few minutes. She would walk about 30 ft away from the house while the entire time looking down at the parameter fencing and at the fowl and goats down in the pastures. I've never seen a dog do this before. It was obvious she was circling and not just walking out to explore. (I'm hardly believing what I'm writing now, thinking I've got it all wrong and she was just exploring; however, this pup is not acting like other pups I've had.)

Caught she and Cujo playing today. David would throw Cujo's ball quite a distance and, of course, he would run as fast as he could to catch it and, when it bounced into the air, he would jump up to get it. Valentine would not follow, but would watch; and as soon as Cujo returned with the ball, Valentine would bounce around on her little feet wanting to play with Cujo. I actually saw Cujo playing with her as she attempted to grab at his leg (and at times even the ball).

This morning as I was milking I saw Valentina walking inside the barn amongst the goats and, at times, would even nibble at what was in their feeding pans. The goats actually let her; but she didn't want any of it and would leave it to them. (It is a real good feeling to know this pup and the goats are beginning to accept each other's presence.)

Caught Valentina crawling thru the door in the garden fencing that I created for the geese/guineas/chickens. I chased her out 3 times. The 4th time I found her sitting "outside" the pen looking thru that door and just watching....wonder how long that would have lasted if I hadn't been thru with what I was doing in there......

David went to the mailbox a few days ago and Valentina followed him (over 300 ft one way), crawling under the gate. David took her back to inside the fencing. Next time she followed David to the gate, she sat just inside waiting for him to bring back the mail....not sure if she is learning or was just distracted by Cujo......
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  #23  
Old 04/28/13, 01:01 PM
 
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Location: New Alexandria PA
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Sounds like your having fun, good deal with the bone and the growling. I also stick my hand in their food dish while they are eating, to seek out and nip any food aggregation issues in the butt early on. Lot easier to do when they are 30lbs vs 100lb+
She sounds smart, believe it or not dogs really like structure and routine.
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  #24  
Old 04/28/13, 10:44 PM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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Just had to share this....Valentina was only 8 weeks old last Monday. This picture was taken today. Notice how the goats are not frightened of her and how she is quite calm among them....really didn't expect bonding to occur so quickly.
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Made my choice...A Bulgarian Karakachan-valentina_goats.jpg  
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  #25  
Old 04/29/13, 10:36 PM
Katie
 
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So glad to see your pup & goats doing so well together so quickly. I hope it works that quick for mine too. My goats have never had a dog in with them though so not sure how fast they will all bond but we just got ours yesterday night.
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  #26  
Old 04/30/13, 06:52 AM
HOW do they DO that?
 
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Calm Alpha Owner=Calm Dog=Calm Goats...well maybe something like that.
Enjoying your journey vicariously.
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  #27  
Old 04/30/13, 09:38 AM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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Yes this is quite a fun journey for me, albeit quite anxiety provoking at times (mostly due to my age and poor agility).

Oh yes, I've learned thru the years that, if I calm myself (and this has been a learned skill thru the years), whatever is around me can actually be mesmerized (mispelled) and calmed.

Backfourty, you are in for a wonderful experience. So far I love this breed! It will not all be smooth though. Yesterday morning when I was separating the does for feeding/milking purposes, I caught Valentina trying to play with the kids. I had to stop what I was doing, grab her by the scruff of the neck and place her in my little (about 4x6) holding pen. She did not like to be in there at all. Listening to her one would have thought she was being mistreated terribly! Still I kept her in there until I was through with the feeding/milking chores. Then I let her out. This morning during the same time period, not once did she try to play with the kids. Did she learn that fast? I have no idea; however, judging from the past week's experiences with her, I would make a guess she DID!

Also, I went to feed the chickens as usual this morning. During the last few days Valentina has crawled under the fencing (where I made a door for the geese/guineas/chickens) and I have had to stop what I was doing to shoosh her out. This morning, she started to crawl thru, I made an "uh uh" with a growling type voice and she stopped, looked at me then backed back out. She literally sat there looking in as I completed that chore. Again, is she actually learning this quickly?

Yesterday afternoon I saw Valentina in the pasture with the goats. She would jump to play at the kids but would not chase them when they bounced back. I saw the dams of those kids butt at Valentina and she definately noticed what she was doing was not ok with them. This lasted less than 5 minutes when she decided to do something else. (I am thinking much of what I'm seeing Valentina do is only puppy behavior; and she is actually learning what is acceptable and what is not and appears to be accepting those limitations. Wishful thinking???)

Probably the most valuable lesson I've learned is that this breed does not like to be caged! Valentina likes to make her own choices! Her choices appear to be in keeping with the natural propensities of her breed; and if I grab her quick enough when she's doing something I disapprove of, place her for short durations in a holding pen she cannot get out of, she gets the idea of what she CANNOT do without she and I coming face-to-face with a confrontation. (Sure glad I'm doing this while she is so little; and, Aart, you're sure right about how important it is to stay calm during these times!)
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  #28  
Old 04/30/13, 02:09 PM
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I am avidly reading your progress with her as I am considering a LGD and have no experience with them. Please keep up the posts!
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  #29  
Old 05/01/13, 10:27 PM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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Update...
Valentina loves to run! Cujo was actually playing with her today by grabbing a stick and running off with it as she chased him. If he got too far ahead, he would circle back to tease her with that stick, then take off again with her chasing him.

I even caught Valentina scooting up on her belly to get her mouth on a bone Cujo was chewing on. He looked like he was going to nip her but didn't. She very slowly took that bone in her mouth and laid there while Cujo had the other end in his mouth. They both just laid there! I could only watch with concern this was going to turn into a full-out fight! But it didn't! Cujo let Valentina have that bone.....strange! She took it, went to Cujo's bed and enjoyed chewing on it. Cujo came over to get pets from me. (I'm not sure what is going on between these two. Wish I were a dog whisperer.)
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  #30  
Old 05/02/13, 01:16 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
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You might want to consider giving the dogs only raw bones. Cooked bones can splinter and cause a great deal of trouble in the intestinal tract. You've also cooked out much of the goodness from the bone. A raw bone will have the complete nutritional content that your dog needs for growing strong bones. As for the kibble, you need to look at the ingredient list rather than the percentage protein. Many things have protein, but not in a form that is digestible. www.dogfoodanalysis.com lists hundreds of commercial foods and gives them stars. Good food is expensive, but hip dysplasia is tragic. I've never had a problem with Taste of the Wild, and it is the cheapest of the top 20 brands. With a puppy, I would add a little vitamin C (buffered crystal, 200 mg) a couple of times a week. This will help with bone development.
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  #31  
Old 05/02/13, 03:55 PM
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Maura, I've actually considered giving raw bones. What concerns me about it is that the raw bones would be "goat" and that is exactly what my dogs guard. I wouldn't want them getting the idea it is ok to eat one of my baby goats.

I've heard that about Vitamin C before. I do have "C vitamin with natural rose hips 1000 mg per tablet". It contains ascorbic acid, cellulose (plant origin), croscarmellose, hypromellose, rose hips (rosa canina)(fruit, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, & silicon dioxide. Can I grind this up and feed it to a 9 week old puppy without harming her? If so, about how much of this ground-up tablet should I give each of those 2 x week?
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  #32  
Old 05/03/13, 11:31 AM
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Michigan's thumb
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I feed my dogs raw chicken and they've never killed any of my chickens. I've fed them mutton and they've never killed any of my sheep. Shepherds around the world feed their herders and guardians mutton. The only dog that is going to kill your chickens or goats is one that is doing it for fun and is too rough, or one that understands the kill= eat part. Your dogs will not kill goats if you give them goat bones. Just make sure the bone is too big to be swallowed whole, and small enough to be carried around.

If it is a tablet then it has binders in it. I'm sure you can grind it up and tuck it into her food. I bought the crystalized version because it was recommended. It is meant to be out of a capsule and ingested the way I give it. Having been someone who has taken vitamin C for twenty five years because of allergies, I can tell you that you get what you pay for. I learned to not buy from a department or grocery store and spend the extra money at the health store. I had to take 3x as much C if I got it from Kmart. There really is a difference in quality (you get what you pay for). Do a search on dogs, hips, and C to get a good idea of how much you should be giving. I've been giving a 20 pound dog 200 mg of the crystalized buffered C and this is not too much (consulted with vet as this is a very sick dog).
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  #33  
Old 05/03/13, 06:28 PM
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Maura, that is very welcomed information. I, too, take a lot of Vitamin C, especially during late fall & winter months. I had never considered the quality before; and I will from now on only purchase it from the health food store.
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  #34  
Old 05/05/13, 07:24 AM
Katie
 
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Before we got our 2 new LGD's home a week ago I asked the breeders about feeding a raw diet to them since my 2 house dogs are on raw & she said she didn't think it was a good idea so I'll feed them dog food.
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  #35  
Old 05/05/13, 12:10 PM
 
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Backfourty, if your housedogs do well on raw, why would you not feed your working dogs the same? My thought is that the breeder probably doesn't really know anything about feeding raw.
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  #36  
Old 05/05/13, 03:06 PM
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I'm leaning toward feeding raw.....(for nutrition since I know my animals are healthy when slaughtered)

I've always heard feeding a dog "raw" meat would make them aggressive; well, my little Karakachan is already aggresive! I've seen her get ferocious at a rock and I've seen her "play" with growls/barks that would have caused most people to think she was going to tear up what she was playing with. I even caught her being "nosy" with a nesting hen, scared that hen off the nest & put her nose in that nest. I yelled at her and grabbed her by the scuff of the neck, which she did not like at all, growling to that let me know she didn't like being removed from something she wanted to do. This is already an aggressive dog! [In the latter incident, when I sat her back down on the ground, showed her the nest, scolded her with my usual "uh uh" (growl), she walked away. Will not know if she would have returned because the hen didn't; so now those eggs are in an incubator.] Will feeding her raw meat make her aggression uncontrollable?

I'm learning from this pup; and what I'm learning is that she enjoys being independent; not that she enjoys being aggressive, though she doesn't hesitate to be should she deem it important. I believe, as her owner, it is up to me to teach her when it is ok and when it is not. (I've already learned teaching this breed is different than teaching my other dogs because of what of heard, i.e. that they don't like to be challenged; so I'm proceeding with patience, calm emotional actions and caution.) Still, I won't have any animal on my place who will not respect me as BOSS!

Recent experiment:
I actually gave both Cujo and Valentina a "raw" bone yesterday. (I have always taken the meat off front legs, saving it for ground meat, and saved those bones, along with all hocks and ribs for my dogs. I have cooked them in the past; but today decided to try giving them raw.) Cujo hesitated to even take the raw bone (with meat on it of course) and, when he did, he just held it. Valentina did not hesitate to take it and immediately started pulling meat off it.

I decided to use this as a training session for this Karakachan puppy. I reached to take the raw bone away and she growled and acted like she would bite if I took it. I grabbed her by the scuff of the neck and took the bone anyway feeling real thankful she was still small. Then I held the bone just out of her reach until she had calmed. I then offerred her the bone back but not letting her have it until I said "ok". Then she got it. Again, she laid right there and started enjoying it. This same process went on for several turns until she was able to let me take it without acting as though she would bite me. (This whole time Cujo was standing there watching us without ever trying to eat his bone....also a raw one which he had never had before.)

I went inside for less than half an hour and, when I returned, Valentina had eaten the meat off and had been chewing off the softer part of the bone (front shoulder blade). Cujo still had not touched his and it was laying on the ground beside him. I went over and picked Cujo's up and gave it to him. He took it and, again, just held it. I went over to take Valentina's and the very same thing occurred as previously. Thus, the training session continued with my holding Valentina by the back of the neck while taking the bone several times until she was more calm about my taking it. Then, again, I left them.

Less than half an hour later I went back to see what was occurring and Valentina had apparently left her bone and was taking the raw meat off Cujo's bone while Cujo was actually chewing up Valentina's left-over bone. Again the lesson continued with Valentina; only this time, she seemed to understand I would give the bone back. She was more willing to let me take the bone, though still showing her dislike in my actions.

Now, should I continue this each and every time I give a raw bone to Valentina? Should I continue giving Cujo the raw bone to find out if he will actually start eating the meat off it? I really have no idea! However, I do not believe this pup has had raw meat before; so I cannot attribute her aggression to the meat. I am thinking her aggression is due to her independent nature which needs to be shown I'm in control. (I'm thinking I will do this again, only this time I'm going to do what Rock suggested, i.e. spit on the raw bone first!)

Oh let me share another situation I found occurring in the pasture: I stood on the front deck watching this! Valentina was running around, circling one of the grown does. (I got ready to yell at her and run to stop this when I saw something occur that confused me.) The doe continued to graze...periodically...as she watched Valentina. Valentina would complete her circle, then flop down onto the grass and roll over several times. Then she would get up, circle that same goat, flop down and roll again. (Not once did I hear Valentina make a growl or barking sound.) This occurred several times while that doe continued to show no signs of fear, just curiosity. After a bit, Valentina walked away. (I'm thinking Valentina has found a way to "play" with the goats that does not cause problems for her.)
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  #37  
Old 05/06/13, 07:31 AM
HOW do they DO that?
 
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Originally Posted by motdaugrnds View Post
......Now, should I continue this each and every time I give a raw bone to Valentina? .....
I would say, yes! I would continue this every time you feed anything until you know that you can always and at any time take food away without reaction until she's full grown and even then still do it once in awhile. I would think that controlling the dogs food is the number one way to assert and maintain alpha status, which makes all other training easier in the long run. Control their feed and use treats only for direct training.

But then I've only had 3 pretty easy dogs (only one slightly challenged me) all acquired at over 6 months old, but control of food, theirs and mine, absolutely and consistently seemed to make a big difference. I've seen other folks let their dogs run over their alpha status by mishandling the food issues and those dogs are out of control and no one's really happy in those packs.
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  #38  
Old 05/06/13, 08:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by motdaugrnds View Post
I'm leaning toward feeding raw.....(for nutrition since I know my animals are healthy when slaughtered)

I've always heard feeding a dog "raw" meat would make them aggressive; well, my little Karakachan is already aggresive!


Now, should I continue this each and every time I give a raw bone to Valentina? Should I continue giving Cujo the raw bone to find out if he will actually start eating the meat off it? I really have no idea! However, I do not believe this pup has had raw meat before; so I cannot attribute her aggression to the meat. I am thinking her aggression is due to her independent nature which needs to be shown I'm in control. (I'm thinking I will do this again, only this time I'm going to do what Rock suggested, i.e. spit on the raw bone first!)
I,ve seen some of the best dogs in the world in show and comp. fed only raw. Raw meat will not make them aggressive, being allowed to act aggressive and having what ever they are acting out towards back off will enhance this action/attitude. (1st stage of aggression training)
I would continue the bone removal training, ideally you want to be able to stop the dog and take anything out of there mouth. I would build it around a command that you can use at a distance ( Out- drop it- cut - whatever word you like) you see them gnawing something out by the edge of the field, you can get them to stop until you see if it is ok for them to have. As for the correction you do what is working for you, I like to alpha roll them (only because that is the way dogs do it, I find it faster& easier to think like a dog, than to try and make the dog think like a people.)
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  #39  
Old 05/06/13, 09:34 AM
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II Corinthians 5:7
 
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Rock, will you go into detail as to how (the step-by-step process) you "...alpha roll..." (think like a dog) them?

I think I'm doing it ok; but seems to me when I grab this puppy by the neck, I am being aggressive and wouldn't this be teaching the dog by example? (This is still not clear enough for me to be comfortable that I'm training correctly.)

Not sure I should permit this, i.e. while playing with puppy and a toy, letting pup get hold of the toy, struggle slightly and, then when pup is starting to pull aggressively on toy, letting go to let pup know it can win.....? This is one way my son and I have worked with other dogs I've had; but not real sure this is ok with this Karakachan. Should we ever let this pup win?
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  #40  
Old 05/06/13, 06:29 PM
 
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Don't alpha roll your dog. Stop using the scruff of the neck in a few weeks as she will be too old for the effect you want. When you do grab the scruff, give a little shake and drop her. Don't hold her. Mother dog gives a little shake.

When you take away the bone, or anything else, use a cue word. "Tina, give." Use a normal tone of voice. Always use a normal tone, not a threatening tone. Trade her the bone for a little tidbit, then tell her "take" and let her take the bone. Play this game throughout the day, not just with the bone. It is a marvelous way to teach her to give up anything in her mouth and know that you are not playing keep-away. You are also teaching her to "take" something, which could come in handy.
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