Please help me understand our goat!

TheFarmerMommy · #21 07/03/15, 10:35 AM

I think she's picking up on your nervousness and it's making her nervous. Herd animals herd primarily for protection. Safety in numbers. There's a social hierarchy within the herd. And a leader. The other herd members look to the leader for input on how they should be reacting to outside stimuli. She came from a large herd that had a leader. Now she's in a place where she's the only goat. So she looks to the humans to see if they're the herd leaders. You're dreaming out about her behavior. She can't suss out your complex emotional process. But she can sense that you feel panicked. That tells her, that, by golly, there must be something to panic about. And ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Chances are your husband projects a calmer front. I used to see something similar with a particular horse at a barn where I worked. He was a wild born Mustang and gelded way too late. The original owners had been so afraid of him, they never let him out of the stall. When the new owner retrieved him from that situation, he was standing on dirty bedding packed down about 3 feet high because no one would enter the stall to clean. Flash forward about 10 years, and expert and diligent training had turned him into a lovely horse. Except he had a habit of holding his ears turned back. It was simply his natural resting expression and he meant no aggression by it. But a lot of people would freak out when they approached the stall and he looked that way. He in turn picked up on their nervousness and became uncomfortable because he felt the human's discomfort but couldn't work out why. In his mind, he was simply standing there. So his ears pinned back further as he became more nervous, causing the human to react with more fear. If you just walked up with confident body language and a quiet mind, he was easy to halter and handle.

She's testing you to see if she can be in charge. But I don't think she really wants to be in charge, if that makes sense. She wants you to be. I'd get some electronet goat fencing and let her out to graze. You're almost interacting with her too much.

TheFarmerMommy · #22 07/03/15, 11:13 AM

On the pet thing - well, yes. Some people do keep goats as pets. I make most of my living farming. I care about my animals. Some of the larger ones would verge on being pets to a certain extent. But I can't get too emotional and let myself forget what's in their best interests. I use electronet to range my poultry. Some of my suburban customers think that's "mean" that I don't give them the run of the entire farm. But they've never witnessed a fox or coyote attack on a bird. It's nasty. It's disturbing. I do my best to balance the birds' instincts with keeping them safe. And I regard keeping them safe as my job. Heck. Long story, but Tuesday night, I ended up hand carrying 450+ new hens into the barn after they got confused and roosted outside and soaked by the rain to the point hypothermia was setting in.

The other thing I would suggest is to recognize that most animals want to feel useful to you. Dogs are pets. But the happiest dogs I know are the ones that have a job that helps you out somehow. Same with horses. I've seldom met a happy "pasture ornament". Most of them are natural people pleasers and want a job to do for you. I had an ancient Percheron gelding that was a carriage horse. He had terrible arthritis so I seldom worked him. But when I did....my god! He got so excited. He looked like he threw off 20 years in an instant. Head went up, gait became short and high-stepping. I only drove him up and down the driveway. But people would pull over to watch. And he loved every second of it and put on a show for them. That horse practically high fived me when we came back to the barn. I regarded him as a pet, but recognized that he needed his job to feel truly happy.

I have an emotional relationship with my children, naturally. But it's important that I raise them to be stable and productive adults someday. So I have rules and limits at the same time as I nurture them emotionally. An animal is no different

Narnia75 · #23 07/03/15, 10:21 PM

Thanks to Terri, FarmerMommy, and OakHollowBoers for comprehending and answering my question, "Please help me understand my goat!" Your contributions are exactly what I was asking for! Now I have a better understanding of the goat mindset!

I don't know how it got misconstrued, but we do NOT let them have their way. We have a loving attitude toward them, but we are very firm with them and make them do what we want them to do, which is to get them into the pen when we want, get her to the milking stand when we want, drench them, take them to browse where and when we want, etc. We know that we are the boss and we let them know it.

However, due to the size of the doe and her having been aggressive with me before, I do not deal with her at all. My DH leads her and the doeling is my charge. Maybe that is where she got the idea that he is her herdmate.

My opening question was NOT, "How did this goat become this way?" Nor was it, "What are we doing wrong?" Nor, "I need advice on how to deal with this goat." My quest was simply a need to understand her behavior, so that I will know what is going on. It was never a question of whether or not to allow this behavior. We knew that she will have to get used to it....it was her first time left alone like that outside the familiarity of her pen. I am thinking that she may have been afraid.

My DH is not nervous around her at all. He has a very firm upper hand on her. I don't feel nervous around her anymore. I just don't lead her, because she is just too strong for me to handle. (She pulls very strongly on lead), so we recently bought a harness, which has been soooo much better!

We do have them in electric fencing. We already had plans for expansion to include that grazing area in the pen. If anyone has more insight on goat behavior, I would love to hear from you.

Alice In TX/MO · #24 07/04/15, 07:47 AM

Is she a Nubian? They are more vocal about EVERYTHING. I have the LAST Nubian that I'm ever going to have in my herd now. She hollers every time she sees me. I tried Nubians once before, and this time, I'm through.

Goats are VERY herd bound and VERY routine oriented. As mentioned before, your husband is part of her herd in her mind. The gate closure is part of the routine.

You will be breeding for behavior characteristics as well as conformation and milk production. You might want to consider if her characteristics are something you want in the next generations.

It takes a couple of weeks to change the routine in a goat's mind. Set a new routine, and she'll get used to it eventually. Unless she's a Nubian.

Narnia75 · #25 07/04/15, 08:36 AM

Thanks, Alice!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Is she a Nubian?
No, she's a Lamancha....supposedly a quiet breed with a great dairy temperament (which she appeared to be at purchase). Did she pull the wool over our eyes!! She has been neither!!

They are more vocal about EVERYTHING. I have the LAST Nubian that I'm ever going to have in my herd now. She hollers every time she sees me. I tried Nubians once before, and this time, I'm through.

I had heard this sort of thing about nubians so we avoided them, but I have said many times, "Sheesh!! How much worse can a nubian be? At least we would have had higher butterfat....tastier milk!" I have met better-tempered nubians since buying our goat!

It was so funny yesterday when she went c-rrrazy!!! We were trimming her kid's hooves in the garage, so DH tied her to a lone tree in our yard next to the garage. She could hear us but not see us. She started bellowing!! I walked out to assure her that we were there...calm down. While I was standing there, she tripped herself on the lead rope from trying to break loose and fell over on the ground. She hollered even louder then! So, laughing, I reached down and untangled that leg. It got caught on another leg. By this time, she was practically on her back. I untangled that one, so that she was completely free, but she continued to lay there and holler...this time, literally like a crying kid that you could not console! So I pulled on the lead and said, "Get up, you silly thing!!" And she did, but a perplexing scene indeed!!

Never have seen our dogs or cats behave in this manner, so it is all very new and puzzling!! I understand dogs and cats because I have been around them for most of my life, so understanding them comes second nature to me. So, I guess it's the same for people who have been around goats for a long time. They understand them, so they know instinctively how to relate to them, but cannot understand where I am coming from. But, for us, their behavior is completely different and new, so we appreciate feedback like yours and the previous 4 posters.

Goats are VERY herd bound and VERY routine oriented. As mentioned before, your husband is part of her herd in her mind. The gate closure is part of the routine.

Her baby is so flexible...she does not seem to have any ties to routine. Is that because she is too young to be set in her ways?

You will be breeding for behavior characteristics as well as conformation and milk production. You might want to consider if her characteristics are something you want in the next generations.

Yes, I knew that, so I had never planned on breeding her. Was planning on milking her right through her cycles to see how long she would continue to produce (if we even keep her for that long). However, her kid has a completely different personality...nothing like her mother...or is it just too early to tell? She is 10 weeks old. Could she have taken on the buck's character traits, or could it be that they are so different because the dam was a bottle-baby and her kid is dam-raised? I have read that bottle babies are a lot more dependent and less flexible.

It takes a couple of weeks to change the routine in a goat's mind. Set a new routine, and she'll get used to it eventually. Unless she's a Nubian.

We were told by her owner that it would take 2-3 weeks to get used to us. It has been over two months and she is still not the calm cool goat that we saw prior to purchasing! A friend said to me, "I think that her great-grandmother must have been a nubian!" I, too, have felt many times that she must have some nubian in her somewhere!

However....I have spoken to some people who have only nubians and told me that I should sell my difficult goat and get nubians...that they are really sweet and quiet!

motdaugrnds · #26 07/04/15, 12:57 PM

ROFL I could not help but laugh at this entired thread....I dearly love assertive animals!

I raise Nubians; and the very first one I got had been bottle fed. She was 1-1/2 yrs old when I got her...or I should say when she picked me out. I had gone to pick up a white Nubian but this black one would not leave me alone. Instead she would constantly place her head on my chest looking up at me...of course I would pet her. Anyway I brought this black one home. (I was fortunate at the time in that I brought 3 goats home...all the same age; so they had each other to talk with when I was elsewhere. I didn't know at the time, but goats are "social" animals and like to be around others of like age.)

Anyway, I have to share this wonderful event with you Narnia 75. The name of this black Nubian was Carma; and this particular time I had her staked to a tree while a contractor was completing the shed all goats were to be housed in...yes I know I got the cart before the horse; but that is a different story.

Well, Carma started her yelling as she watched me do my work. The carpenter was on the roof and started watching Carma due to the fuss she was making. Carma continued to yell and pounce around obviously wanting off the leash. She "accidentally" knocked over her water bucket. The carpenter laughed as he told me, "She look down at the spilled water, then looked in my direction and let out the loudest yell of all, obviously saying 'Now look what you made me do!'"

Narnia75, goats are, indeed, characters; and to understand them is really not that difficult if you understand the basic need of such an animal. They do not like being alone; and a mother doe with a baby is still alone even though she has a kid with her. Goats are, also, quite intelligent and have memories like elephants. They are, also, creatures of habit; and once a habit (bad or good) is formed, it is difficult to stop it. However, once they understand what you demand of them and know you've demanded with gentleness/kindness, their behavior will change and they will not only respect you but will love you as well.

Remember the little story I told above? Well, this Nubian always continued to feel bonded to me. She even saved me from being hurt by a large dog once that was pouncing around on me when I had fallen. (She butted that dog 3 times before it stopped pouncing.) Her yelling did subside for the most part; still she never hesitated to let me know when she wanted more water in her bucket...now hanging on a wall..., and more hay in her feeder.

Maybe I'm in error, but on my homestead, I look at ALL animals as though they are knowledgeable in areas I'm not about themselves. Thus, I do a great deal of listening when my animals (goats and dogs...even chickens) are talking. This means I "consider" what they want while "doing" what is best for them....

Narnia75, enjoy your conversations with your goats...

Narnia75 · #27 07/04/15, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VA Susan

Narnia, I'm sorry that some of the folks who have responded have been less than kind to you. Most goat folks are the nicest people you will ever meet.
We have a goat who hollers for no reason too. We just ignore her. She was a bottle baby. Sometimes she sounds like she is being murdered. Her previous owner has a herd and some of his yell out like that too. His goats get very little individual attention. Some goats are just loud mouths! Our little buckling makes lots of noise too and has from birth according to his previous owners. He seems to have gotten calmer and doesn't holler as much as he first did. Thankfully we don't have any neighbors close enough to bother. I hope your goat settles in and that she will get over it.

Thank you, Susan, for your kind words! Yes, most goat folks that I have met have been very nice!

As for the posters of whom you are referring...everyone projects their own agenda. We are all a product of our upbringing and life experiences and relate to people and animals through the filter of those experiences.

Narnia75 · #28 07/04/15, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

Maybe I'm in error, but on my homestead, I look at ALL animals as though they are knowledgeable in areas I'm not about themselves. Thus, I do a great deal of listening when my animals (goats and dogs...even chickens) are talking. This means I "consider" what they want while "doing" what is best for them....

Narnia75, enjoy your conversations with your goats...

Yes!! A philosophy after my own heart!! Thank you for stating it so eloquently!!

This is basically what I was thinking, when I said that I have to understand them in order to work with them!

chamoisee · #29 07/04/15, 03:49 PM

She has decided that you are her herd. Also, goats tend to feel more insecure when they are tied out. I would buy some stock panel (a little at a time if necessary) and pen her rather than tying her out. Lastly, this is why I don't bottle feed them. It sets them up to be emotionally dependent, which is great if you want an emotionally needy animal that's unhappy when you're not around, but not so great if you want your goat to be a goat....one that's happy to see you when you're there and will be OK when you're not.

Narnia75 · #30 07/04/15, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamoisee

She has decided that you are her herd. Also, goats tend to feel more insecure when they are tied out. I would buy some stock panel (a little at a time if necessary) and pen her rather than tying her out.

Thank you! The stake-out is only a temporary measure. We were trying to see which area she liked to eat off of the most, so have been taking her to browse/graze various areas, order to find the best area to fence in, in addition to what we have already provided.

Lastly, this is why I don't bottle feed them. It sets them up to be emotionally dependent, which is great if you want an emotionally needy animal that's unhappy when you're not around, but not so great if you want your goat to be a goat....one that's happy to see you when you're there and will be OK when you're not.

That would explain why her dam-raised baby is NOT emotionally dependent. she's happy to see me when I'm there, but does not holler when I leave!

Thank you!

motdaugrnds · #31 07/04/15, 07:47 PM

I must differ with the statement about bottle feeding being a negative thing, i.e. setting a goat up to be emotionally dependent. I've a great deal of experience in bottle feeding and what I've discovered is that it makes a goat easier to work with, not necessarily emotionally dependent. I especially like to bottle feed any buck I intend to keep for my herd. (My favorite was a very very large Nubian I bottle fed. He grew to be over 250 lbs and would even walk beside me when he saw me out and about. He is in my avatar! He was not at all dependent on me for anything he wanted; yet not once did he ever attempt to hurt me, even when he was in rut and I was standing between him and his doe.) Bottle feeding my bucks have not made them dependent on me at all...just gentle.

Narnia75 · #32 07/04/15, 08:35 PM

I have heard that it makes them gentle, too. Very confusing....people on both sides of the camp...

gibbsgirl · #33 07/04/15, 09:54 PM

Narnia I pm'd you. And the pics are up on a thread called barn pasture tour in the homesteading questions forum. Hope it helps.

Narnia75 · #34 07/04/15, 10:10 PM

Thanks! Got it!!

Bearfootfarm · #35 07/05/15, 12:08 AM

Quote:

But, when she was left alone in the field, she sounded like she was in a panic. Bellowing REALLY loud!! We thought that maybe she had gotten hurt!!

You took a goat with a young kid away from a herd on a farm, then tied her out in a field ALONE for maybe the first time in her life.

Is it surprising she was upset?

Narnia75 · #36 07/05/15, 10:13 AM

Sorry...not "alone." She was with her kid and we were nearby, and we checked on them frequently. Not really a field, per se, in the middle of nowhere, but a plot of grassy land next to the barn. We had taken her out there many times while standing around with them, so she was familiar with the area. This time, we thought we would let them graze on their own to give us more time with the goat chores.

She is doing much better now. She is more used to it.

Besides, my question was more about why will she not eat when my DH is not around. If you read my first post, I had said that I went back to watch them, and she would not eat with me around.

terri9630 · #37 07/05/15, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narnia75

Thanks to Terri, FarmerMommy, and OakHollowBoers for comprehending and answering my question, "Please help me understand my goat!" Your contributions are exactly what I was asking for! Now I have a better understanding of the goat mindset!

I don't know how it got misconstrued, but we do NOT let them have their way. We have a loving attitude toward them, but we are very firm with them and make them do what we want them to do, which is to get them into the pen when we want, get her to the milking stand when we want, drench them, take them to browse where and when we want, etc. We know that we are the boss and we let them know it.

However, due to the size of the doe and her having been aggressive with me before, I do not deal with her at all. My DH leads her and the doeling is my charge. Maybe that is where she got the idea that he is her herdmate.

My opening question was NOT, "How did this goat become this way?" Nor was it, "What are we doing wrong?" Nor, "I need advice on how to deal with this goat." My quest was simply a need to understand her behavior, so that I will know what is going on. It was never a question of whether or not to allow this behavior. We knew that she will have to get used to it....it was her first time left alone like that outside the familiarity of her pen. I am thinking that she may have been afraid.

My DH is not nervous around her at all. He has a very firm upper hand on her. I don't feel nervous around her anymore. I just don't lead her, because she is just too strong for me to handle. (She pulls very strongly on lead), so we recently bought a harness, which has been soooo much better!

We do have them in electric fencing. We already had plans for expansion to include that grazing area in the pen. If anyone has more insight on goat behavior, I would love to hear from you.

That's not how it started though. Go back and read your first threads about this goat and you'll see why people answered the way they did. You keep asking for help with the same issues. I've seen other forums where you've asked the same questions and received similar answers.

motdaugrnds · #38 07/06/15, 09:03 AM

ROFL Narnia is like many of us goat keepers in that she wants to understand her goats. Thus, I suspect Narnia would be more inclined to accept responses if those responses came from the goat itself. ROFL (I'm a lot like that...wanting to understand what my animals are communicating and I doubt many "humans" can interpret such with much accuracy.)

Narnia75 · #39 07/06/15, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terri9630

That's not how it started though. Go back and read your first threads about this goat and you'll see why people answered the way they did. You keep asking for help with the same issues. I've seen other forums where you've asked the same questions and received similar answers.

It doesn't feel like the same question to me.... I thank everyone for your patience as I try to swim my way through this completely new territory. However, your comment about posting on other forums is unfounded.

kbwinter · #40 07/06/15, 02:41 PM

I have Nigerian Dwarf goats and they are a bit more of a diva than some other breeds but it's worth it for the size making them easier to handle for me.
I think you'll notice your doeling change after weaning. She is not old enough yet to really tell. All of mine have changed after weaning. I have a small herd 9 which is the only reason I notice. I have a dame raised doeling I was worried would turn into a tart like her mom and shocked when after weaning she became very sweet and loves to be pet. Her brother who I previously loved and would carry around with me has turned into the tart. He is now mischievous, bellows all the time and gets into everything. He is always breaking through the fence! My two bottle kids were very sweet but even with them one loves to be near me and the other wants me to quit touching him and runs if I bring out the trimmers. All this to say that just because the mom belows doesn't mean the doeling will however it doesn't mean she won't either.

they change a bit after seperating from mom. Having a different goat you like the temperment of will help too they will follow the leader or the "queen bee" as I call my girl. Any temperment issues I have had she instinctually will knock out of them. She won't let them below too long if nothing is wrong, she brings them to me when I call, she leads them to the shed at night and if they don't go she'll bite them or below at them till they listen...
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