WOW!!!! What would you do????

southerngurl · #41 09/03/14, 06:48 PM

Susie, while I agree it's not how I would do it, (IF I'm understanding this right) it is the usual with an already purchased animal being boarded by the breeder to be at the owner's risk if something out of the boarder's control happens. So long as it was not negligence etc. Because you own the animal already and they are boarding it at that point.

For example, I have someone bringing back two doelings they purchased from me this spring to be bred and I will be boarding them for a month or so. If they were to die by some accident or disease that was not a result of my negligence etc., then the loss is the new owners, not mine. If I had sold them and then boarded them before the original pickup, it's the same thing. BUT, like I said, while I may not have an *obligation* to do so at that point, I would offer them full credit towards another just because it sucks so much for them to have never even had hands on the animal. I like for my buyers to be happy. I really like for them to get more than they expect!

Kind of like I had a doeling born this year that was reserved...and oh she was a beauty, correct, gorgeous breed character...and solid ears and spots! Plus I was really liking her dam. The idea of letting her go was breaking my heart. I have it written right on my website, I reserve the right to retain any kid I choose. BUT, didn't really want to do that to someone. So I offered them $100 off of another doeling. They really liked the other kid and took the offer. So we were both happy and I was out $100. But it was worth it to me for them to feel great about their purchase.

Hate that you're not happy with your buckling, that sucks

I adore his brother. He is gorgeous. If he's too fine boned for you, perhaps consider breeding him to a couple of your more heavy boned gals and see what you get first before writing him off? Sambusik's DHIR info is up for this lactation. She is milking really well, still at 12 lbs a day at 90 days fresh. Pretty darn good for a 2 yr old.

I'm just surprised since all my dealings with Laura have been so positive. She bent over backwards trying to find a way to get Pekahn here. Spent hours on the phone. I know she did want me to have him after I lost his son last year before I ever got to use him. But I'm tickled with this one I got at this point.

yarrow · #42 09/03/14, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Susie, while I agree it's not how I would do it, (IF I'm understanding this right) it is the usual with an already purchased animal being boarded by the breeder to be at the owner's risk if something out of the boarder's control happens. So long as it was not negligence etc. Because you own the animal already and they are boarding it at that point.

For example, I have someone bringing back two doelings they purchased from me this spring to be bred and I will be boarding them for a month or so. If they were to die by some accident or disease that was not a result of my negligence etc., then the loss is the new owners, not mine. If I had sold them and then boarded them before the original pickup, it's the same thing. BUT, like I said, while I may not have an *obligation* to do so at that point, I would offer them full credit towards another just because it sucks so much for them to have never even had hands on the animal. I like for my buyers to be happy. I really like for them to get more than they expect!

Kind of like I had a doeling born this year that was reserved...and oh she was a beauty, correct, gorgeous breed character...and solid ears and spots! Plus I was really liking her dam. The idea of letting her go was breaking my heart. I have it written right on my website, I reserve the right to retain any kid I choose. BUT, didn't really want to do that to someone. So I offered them $100 off of another doeling. They really liked the other kid and took the offer. So we were both happy and I was out $100. But it was worth it to me for them to feel great about their purchase.

Hate that you're not happy with your buckling, that sucks

I adore his brother. He is gorgeous. If he's too fine boned for you, perhaps consider breeding him to a couple of your more heavy boned gals and see what you get first before writing him off? Sambusik's DHIR info is up for this lactation. She is milking really well, still at 12 lbs a day at 90 days fresh. Pretty darn good for a 2 yr old.

I'm just surprised since all my dealings with Laura have been so positive. She bent over backwards trying to find a way to get Pekahn here. Spent hours on the phone. I know she did want me to have him after I lost his son last year before I ever got to use him. But I'm tickled with this one I got at this point.

I too had a wonderful time dealing with Laura.. right up until she called to tell me that instead of putting all my purchase money towards a 2015 kid.. when she called to tell me the doeling had died that morning.. she implied that I would loose ALL my money.. let her know that was NOT FAIR.. so she agreed to apply it.. the call in aug was to tell me it was only going to be half instead of all of it..... (she wasn't actually BOARDING my doeling.. I was buying multiple kids -which she knew from the beginning- She knew we were driving and would need to pick everyone up at the same time.. There was no mention of ANY boarding fees or that the doeling was staying longer then she wanted her to be there... (remember WY roads were blocked by winter storms.. both on the way out and back... so she wasn't getting to the airport any quicker then I was going to be there picking her up).. she was a late march kid.. she died on may 4th or 5th.. she was still close to the six week age range).. so it wasn't a kid that she was stuck hanging on to for months.. while waiting for our boys to be born..

I too like to go above and beyond with my buyers.. I want them happy (I want them to WANT to come back and buy more LOL).. I'm just bummed about the whole deal.. I had looked forward to adding these lines for so long.. to loose the doeling (without ever getting to see her.. had we gotten there a day earlier and she had died in my truck on the way home.. well then that would have been MY loss.. I don't think this should be.. but I'm still going to just suck it up and take the 1/2 loss and hope that I get a kid I really like).. of course the doeling that died was the line that I was really after.. I am trying to be patient and let my buckling mature..he was my 2nd choice for a buck.. the doe I wanted a buck from didn't take.. (keep telling myself maybe he's just a late/slow bloomer ???.. the doeling is keeping up okay, with the other doelings the same age.. now that the buckling is off in the jr. buck pen.. he looks like a doeling in comparison to the other 3 bucklings (granted two of them are a couple weeks older.. but 1/2 again, his size..even the Goldthwaite buckling ... who is a month younger is much larger).. I know the dam is doing really well on her DHIR (and in the show ring).. so I'm not throwing in the towel on him yet..((just wished I liked him better.. I'd be more excited to get another kid this coming spring.. now.. I just don't want to loose any more money))

I had decided to just keep quite about the whole deal.. until all the discussion on deposits came up.. I also wasn't going to actually tell which herd it was (since I bought from 3 different ones.. but Doug spelled it out in CAPITALS LOL).. the whole world of deposits is a slippery slope at times.. this slope was just a little slicker then any I've climbed before..

susie

wintrrwolf · #43 09/03/14, 08:02 PM

WOW!!
I have had some people see my goats then stop and ask if I have any babies for sale, I say not for about 5 months. Never thought to say anything about deposits...not sure if at this time I am even going to mess with deposits and contracts.
I count myself lucky that those of you here that I bought from trusted me enough to show up (even at 10 pm or was it 11) and not worry about deposits and all that.

Clovers_Clan · #44 09/04/14, 08:48 AM

This is what I would offer... They put deposits down on weanlings. What you are now selling(after all this wait, care and feed) is breeding age doelings(you have the bucks, perhaps you could go ahead and breed them). Figure your price for them as such. If she would like she can pick up the remaining does, of course paying the remainder of the new price. She does have the option of leaving her deposits for 2015 kids. For the two you sold she has the option of buying alternates at the bred yearling price OR continue holding the deposit for two 2015 kids(with clear terms of when to be picked up). Under the circumstances she may be happy to wait until next year to add to the herd. Timing is not great, but you may find you can get a respectable return for your 7 month olds, now that they have a little value added with the breeding.

southerngurl · #45 09/04/14, 03:00 PM

Yeah, I would be super bummed too. Sorry

May I ask what breeding the doeling that died was out of?
I thought blue beary was looking super nice in her new photo.

yarrow · #46 09/04/14, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Yeah, I would be super bummed too. Sorry

May I ask what breeding the doeling that died was out of?
I thought blue beary was looking super nice in her new photo.

I too think Blue Beary is looking really good (the doeling I have out of her is almost a carbon copy)... the doeling that died was out of Lh Mountain Vista Moona Lisa ( was after some of that line, but wanted G6S Normal, as it carries a lot of G6S.. they won the 2007 nationals.. with one of their does.. Big milky does.. this particular doe line also carries Saada, Kismet & Copper-Hill)..
http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDeta...ber=N001654266
the sire of the dead doeling was Pekahn (at least I think it was LOL.. it MIGHT have been Revelation.. I'd have to go back thru emails to double check.. know the dam was Moona.. she's not on the website I don't think)..

susie

Trainwrek · #47 09/04/14, 03:52 PM

What would I do? I would dump all the goats and get sheep, theyre way better

yarrow · #48 09/04/14, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainwrek

What would I do? I would dump all the goats and get sheep, theyre way better

LOL.. guess that's all dependent upon the sheep.. I have a wee flock of five..they have as much personality as five rocks would... I'll just KEEP adding goats..

susie

Clovers_Clan · #49 09/04/14, 05:27 PM

I think the 50/50 share of loss in this instance is actually fair. Its a sad situation for both parties. there are two judgements at play here: weight of risk, and actual vs. potential loss.

What makes it most hard to stomach is that Susie bore a complete actual loss, she lost money and got nothing. She put down a deposit in good faith up front. The IMPLIED risk she took was to purchase an animal before it was ready to come home with her. Animals can and do die. But in this case, it was a risk assumed in order to get breeding stock in high demand. She couldn't have purchased the doe at weaning, people were lined up for a chance to buy her. A good contract always spells out the weight of risk. In cases of negligence, of course the seller should be responsible. But its not always clear otherwise.

In the case of actual vs. potential loss: the actual loss the breeder incurred was a percentage of management costs; feed, medicine, labor etc. for both the doe and kid. The potential loss the breeder incurred was the sale of a kid with valuable genetics. Potential loss is a little easier to accept, gain was never guaranteed. However the weight of risk that a herdsman takes when breeding goats is substantial. There is no guarantee that offspring will be born or what value they might have. The doe or kids could require expensive medical care. The dam could die... We all assume those risks when we own a herd, as a business or a hobby.

In this case the seller took the hit on potential gain by forgiving half the risk she believed the buyer had assumed responsibility for. As a BUSINESS transaction it is fair and could also be seen as generous compromise.

Its still very hard not to sympathize with Susie on a personal level. I know, and have done business with, breeders who have willingly shouldered the complete responsibility of risk on an animal (paid for in full, of course) until the time they are weaned. They weighed the risk/benefit of a secure sale vs. accident or nature. And probably, as well, felt it was what was right. I think its what I would do... if I took deposits(I'm strictly cash and carry, there's no one lining up at the door to buy my mutts!). I can't fault anyone for how they choose to do their business in that regard. Its just really important to communicate these issues up front at the time of sale/deposit. So everyone understands their own risks.

Doug Hodges · #50 09/07/14, 11:11 AM

If you put a deposit on a goat from me and then pay for it when that goat is born. If we set a time for you to be here to pick it up and you honor your end and the goat dies the day before you arrive. That's 100% on me. I'm still shocked Saada did that. No way in hell will I ever buy from them. I have talked to them and had considered buying from them. That's over. As you know, I buy a lot. They won't miss my business. I sent Becky Goldthwaite money two months before I arrived to pick them up. I didn't get one I had wanted because something happened but I got one I thought was better to replace it and she GAVE me another buck and another Doeling. Yes I said GAVE ME. I ask you "Who would you rather do business with?"

I've also bought from Susie. She also gave me one conditionally but that's another story.

http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html

dozedotz · #51 09/07/14, 12:18 PM

Agree, Doug. There are more and more Saada bloodlines "out there" from breeders who appreciate the lines, but are not so IMO cold. You take enough chances even when a very expensive kid is hale and hardy...you are always taking a chance of getting a dud.