How much does a Mini Nubian usually weigh at birth?

Being a mini or ND does NOT make a goat poor quality though sfarmer. Wouldn't you agree? There are goats of EVERY single breed that are NOT beautiful show quality animals or great milkers. I had the chance to buy a Saanen doe on craigslist last year and her udder and teats were horrid That doesn't mean that breed sucks it means that GOAT had a poor quality of udder and teats (and didn't give much milk either, they said 2 cups!) . It's NOT The size of the goat that makes them good quality. Not al ND's or minis are great either. It's not the size! It's the different parts of each goat. Udder, teats, topline etc. Cute? They are ALL cute! I mean really have you ever seen a goat without a cute face?? Thankfully it's not YOUR show ring .

If you want to help people teach them about what makes a GOOD show quality goat. Show them the charts! Minis aren't lesser quality or less useful just because they are hybrid. They have hybrid vigor

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Hialeahs Dairy Goats, raising high quality Nubians, ( mini nubes coming soon) and Nigerian Dwarfs!


What we use for Homeschooling
http://homeschoolingtorah.com/dap/a/?a=240

I have standard sized goats and Nigerians. All are purebred and the Nigerians make IMO the best tasting milk. But I like full fat in everything. Their milk makes the best Kefir. I have had a few accidental Nigerian/Nubian crosses. I still have one as a pet (doe). Kids favorite.

My Nigerians, some not all, are definitely dairy. Dairy is what I breed for. Nigerians and Minis do have their place. Not all farms are 100+ acres or commercial. Like someone else said, there may be a time when I have only Nigerians for dairy depending on where i'm living and the size of the property. Mongrels or not, that only matters if you are promoting yourself as selling quality breeding stock. If they are for your own use or terminal kids, it doesn't matter.

Sensible...I find it odd that the only things you ever comment on on here are posts about mini's/Nigerians, of which you obviously have no interest, so why post there, and bottle vs. dam raising. Others have said you just seem to be trolling, and since that is all you ever comment on, I am starting to think so, too.

Answer the question, and move on.

And I do agree that the mini's may be born all kinds of sizes, since they are not yet consistent and "set" in type and size.

Every breed starts somewhere, and there are lots of people working very hard to create quality mini goats. It is just plain insulting when you insinuate that there aren't. I have seen beautiful mini Lamanchas, Nubians, and have had lovely mini alpines. I have seen ugly ones too. Same as any other goats. My uglies go to the salebarn.

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Nancy Boling
Frosted Mini Goats
Alpine and Nigerian Dwarf goats
2 Jersey heifers
1 guard llama
And whatever else shows up...
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Cross breeds are not hybrids. Hybridization is a cross between two species. Not trying to come across as anything but sincere.

But yes, cross breeds can be good. But just as good of chance they will receive the worst genes of both sire and dam as they are to receive the best. Genetics are fun.

No, but I don't see this any more in minis than I do in other breeds. I think there are good and bad breeders everywhere, in all things, all the time. I have seen some very nice, passionate, intelligent people raising miniature breeds of dairy. I have met some people who see no fault with their alpines and wonder why they can't sell every buckling for 800.00 like hotcakes and are in for a huge suprise when they appraise the first time.

Many people are herd blind especially those that enjoy goats but do not know how to breed for improvement. Many people need years to realize every single buckling doesn't need to be sold as a breeding buck (this is my peeve), IF EVER they learn this. I know people who boast of selling all 10 of their bucklings as breeder bucks, yay. (alpines, in this case).

Your delivery could use tact, however. Informative and helpful, not degrading, dismissive, and oftentimes rude. This could turn people off to goats instead of actually helping them. Especially when they are so new to goats they need guidance and support, not derision. You are ASSUMING that every breeder is a certain way in a certain breed or type, and you know what they say of those who assume things...

I don't like nubians (Everybody has them, few small herds are breeding them well IMO; and spots does not make them quality! :/), nigies (cute, small, blue eyes...), or mini goats (variable, blue eyes, spots, little 'cute' factor) for pretty much the same reasons you do. Cute factor and breeding them with zero purpose or improvement. The flashier they are, they are kept and bred - despite that horrible lactation/udder/breeding. I hate blue eyed animals because it seems to be a primary breeding goal of many people, and I hate 'mini silky fainting goats with blue eyes' more than anything on this planet for a multitude of reasons the SAME you hate some breeds. (this also being said, I have seen a few nigie does that looked exactly like they *should* - like tiny beautiful alpines and I would proudly own it! I have seen gorgeous spotted nubians, gorgeous blue eyed animals... it's when those things are the goals and not the 'cherry on top' that bothers me!) But, I manage not to offend people and still have my beliefs and even share them tactfully without ever really stepping on toes. I'd like to think this is by far a more effective delivery system.

For example here, You could have stated they are a breed in development and variation in birthing size could be expected. Birthing size is greatly effected by management, genetics, number of kids in a litter, and parity of the dam. That is helpful information to give on top of what mini breeders will contribute with their average kid weights and hopefully will also contribute their range of kid sizes born.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

From dictionary.com: Hybrids can even be the same species and two different strains of the same breed. Essentially it can be a cross of two different strains of the same breed. These two different strains have high levels of hommozygosity for traits WITHIN the strains, but they differ in this homozygosity between strains. Crossing the two strains increases HETEROZYGOSITY, increasing vigor and resulting high variability in conformational/behavioral traits but overallk increased growth rates, disease resistance, survivability etc. Strains of lab animals come to mind, and many strains of commercially raised rabbits sare like this. I doubt you see true 'strains' that much in goats due to not many people having huge breeding herds that don't bring in new genetics and have the ability to develop a strain.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

I think that is a severe stretch of the term. Referring to DNA Hybridization a domestic goat is a domestic goat. Breed them together and you have another domestic goat. Bred to an Ibex would produce a hybrid.

I hear what you are saying but we can disagree. I don't remember my genetics professor saying cross breeds within a species are hybrids.

Origin:
1595–1605; < Latin hybrida, hibrida a crossbred animal

Thanks mygoat another tidbit....

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Hialeahs Dairy Goats, raising high quality Nubians, ( mini nubes coming soon) and Nigerian Dwarfs!


What we use for Homeschooling
http://homeschoolingtorah.com/dap/a/?a=240

Just saw your post Dav and I disagree but I wasn't trying to be rude. Your 2nd post wasn't visible to me until I had posted.

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Hialeahs Dairy Goats, raising high quality Nubians, ( mini nubes coming soon) and Nigerian Dwarfs!


What we use for Homeschooling
http://homeschoolingtorah.com/dap/a/?a=240

No worries. From one HS parent to another.

See, people can disagree and still get along. It's all in the delivery

If everyone new everything, we would have no reason to communicate.

The term hybrid or hybrid vigour is mentioned by my genetics professor and in my textbook. Textbook definition is reference: Understanding Animal Breeding, 2nd E, Bourdon). I also have oodles of notes from this class that I took at MSU while completing my BS in Animal Science. While I Think your definition is accurate as well, I do believe it is too narrow. (I hope you don't see this as me talking you down or arguing with you - I find this stuff FASCINATING and love talking about it! )

Essentially a hybrid is anything that increases heterozygosity (heterosis is another term for hybrid vigour). This is an increase in performance of animals. While hybrids between species may be faster growing (not sure if that is true or not, I don't know plant crossing much and that's likely where that is to come into play the most), their FITNESS (survivability, fertility) are MOOT because they are often sterile due to different numbers of chromosomes (once again, not always the case but with mammals this is pretty random and rare... in plants, it can be much more common but I'm not a 'plant person'.

This is often utilized in commercial production. IN cattle and sheep, they use this heterosis extensively in meat production. A purebred terminal sire with 'terminal' traits is used on crossbred dams, different from terminal sire breeds (usaully called maternal breeds, in sheep). For example in sheep, a polypay ewe is crossed to a Suffolk. This results in the ewes exhibiting hybrid vigour in fertility, lambing ease, milk production, prolificacy etc, AND the lambs exhibiting hybrid vigour as well by the introduction of the purebred suffolk genetics and adding 'meat traits' like fast growth, carcass quality etc. Alternatively in a beef operation, you could take whitefaced black cows (usually Angus x Hereford) and cross them to a Simmental or Charolais bull. The cows would exhibit hybrid vigour in maternal traits (milk production, fertility etc), and the calves would ALSO exhibit hybrid vigour (vigour, growth rate, survivability, disease resistance etc). The amount each trait is effected is variable but this is economically a very important practice for commercial operations.

If I had a commercial goat herd for meat production, I'd model it after a well thought out commercial sheep farm. A medium sized doe from a cross of hardy, maternal, milky does bred to a large terminal sire. I'd love to have a doe herd of myotonic, Kiko, and a small amount of dairy (LaMancha perhaps). Cross those to a boer. The only problem here is that you have to have sources for maternal lines to renew your genetics here and there and replace culls. I'd probably pick superior does and cross them to new lines of maternal line bucks from outer sources to keep the heterozygosity up to some amount, keep daughters for replacements.

All a fun thought experiment for me. A girl can dream. While I'm at it, I'd like a large commercial goat dairy as well. All while running a vet practice and having a family.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

And again: Just what do you breed, how many goats do you own, what shows do you participate in, and how long have you been breeding goats? Perhaps if you backed up your opinions with some extent of experience, some may be more willing to consider your thoughts.

For your purposes you can happily assume that I don't own any goats, I've never bred them and I've never exhibited. It doesn't matter. The information that I provide is accurate, regardless of what I own or not. Or, I could just spout off a long list of accomplishments. How would you know any of it is true, but if I did, would that make you understand where I'm coming from? Doubtful.

Very well put, and point taken. However my point is that emotional immaturity, willfull ignorance and childish nonsense is taking over all of the animal breeding and exhibition fancies, from goats to dogs to poultry, you name it. The over the top foolishness offends me (and I hate using that word) as much as some seem to be offended by my responses. I could have very easily replied as in your suggestion. And it would have been glossed over in favor of a more emotionally soothing remark that really contained no practical information, and in some cases may have had misleading or harmful information. Hey, but that's OK today, as long as it elicited a giggle. I'm fighting fire with fire so to speak, with replies as equally outrageous as the nonsensical tact, in the hope of getting people's attention and having them wake up. That at least, I seem to have accomplished. I just wish that people would take a more practical approach to animal care and breeding, and realize what is important and what is not. That outlook seems to be all but lost today. And yes, don't get me started on blue eyes either. It's all the rage among paint camel breeders, and they're going to come to regret it.

Unless someone is on here marketing something they sell or are looking for approval, there is no reason to say how many goats you own, your show wins, titles and so on. None of that matters unless again you are selling something. Having 50 goats doesn't mean your any more qualified to answer than someone with a handful. All it would do would is allow more stereotyping to begin for the packs to attack.

Some have decided they don't like what SensibleFarmer says no matter what it is. I'm here to share and learn. If I don't agree, that's OK. Every person is allowed to have their own thoughts. All are equally allowed to share on a public forum. Just don't read them or even easier, don't reply to a post.

I seem to offend less people and have the same outlook as you, Sensible. I just strongly believe in supporting people and helping them develop their foundation instead of attacking them. I do not feel like people gloss over my opinions, instead often people go out of their way to contact me or to thank me for my opinions. While I see some emotional 'problems' in raising goats or livestock in general, I feel like I get more credibility for my opinions by being open and helpful than I do by being offensive to get my point across. At the end of the day, what other people do with their livestock doesn't directly effect me or my herd, because of the way I select and the way I manage them.

That, and yes I have pet goats and yes I think goats are the CUTEST BABIES ON THE PLANET. That doesn't mean I can't sell or butcher that animal when the time comes. That doesn't mean I'm going to spend ungodly amounts of vet bills on an animal that isn't worth it. Yes, I'm very emotionally invested in my goat herd as it is a main driving force in my life and has taught me everything I know about livestock, management, and got me into vet school! And I can have fun looking at people's baby pictures and talking with other raisers in an amicable way and STILL have a working (but small) herd that I have standards and goals for. All work and no play...

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Dav of course no one needs to show "credentials" but most people here DO talk about what type of goats they have, share the occasional picture or say something that isn't just geared toward "correcting" others views. I thought SF was getting picked on but then I read his reply in Awnry Abes thread and he was being cruel....

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Hialeahs Dairy Goats, raising high quality Nubians, ( mini nubes coming soon) and Nigerian Dwarfs!


What we use for Homeschooling
http://homeschoolingtorah.com/dap/a/?a=240

I disagree, people can read, google and etc and have zero actual real life knowledge. An article cannot explain to you how it feels to have your hand inside a ND doe whose vagina is gripping your hand like a vice and have you fix that malpresented kid.

Why is it a secret whether you have goats or not SF? Most of us love talking about our goats, posting pictures and etc. Most people however do not like people who may or may not actually own or ever have owned goats and come here like a know it all. We have had " Google Queens" in the past who act like they know everything, yet if you checked on their "facts" you would find that they re-worded something they read on the internet.
You act like you are always being attacked maybe if you changed your approach and stopped being such a snarky know-it-all your advice would be better received.

I have F1 mini Nubians, they are from purebred ND Bucks with purebred Nubian dams. I have them both on site and can assure anyone who buys one they are not getting some mongrel goat. They also are not small, they are a medium goat which is explained and shown to potential buyers. I also never have to worry about GS6 testing or issues breeding doing it this way. Some people do not want a full size or pint size goat and a mini fits the bill. Sell to your market is my philosophy and I do that.

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You may not copy my posts or pictures without my consent on this board or any other.

Just wanted to say... animals with nubian heritage DO have to worry about G6S. It's not just in purebred animals.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Agree with Mygoat, all my mini nubians have now been tested for G6S. The mini's can have it just like a standard nubian. It gets passed from a carrier or affected parent.

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Udderly Precious Mini Nubian Goats
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