Is a bad attitude hereditary?
 

I got a doe from a friend and she just turned 1 last month. Her Mama and grandmother are both witches. She has been sweet, but now she has started butting my cats, chickens, dogs and other goats. I understand the herd dominance struggle, but the chickens? Whats up with that. So far she hasn't come after people. Is this her trying to say she is a big girl now or is she getting her Mama's attitude. She is a pygmy. I've had her since she was 3 months old. I have two other goats a doe and a wether. Any advice would be great. I've had several people ask for her is it time to say bye?

Some people believe that bad attitude is indeed hereditary. At this time we have a beautiful girl who is very well behaved (almost 2 years old) and has never offered to hurt anyone (people or other animals). She is the daughter of a very aggressive girl who was the daughter of a very aggressive girl (both of them were BEAUTIFUL and champions, too). Maybe it was our girl's sire who had an influence...he is very mellow.

IMO Attitude and personality is more environmental then hereditary.

Hormones kick in at certain times and if a goat inherited a homone system that tends to make them , how should I put it..... , temperamental, then you could see it later. Although I have not had that dramatic a change in a goat, I did with a horse. She went from pleasant and cooperative to miserable and irritable her first spring season of her 2 year old year. I will say she mellowed back up so that by her fourth year , she was back to pretty mellow.

IMHO, most of it is inherited. I had to put a buck down that tried to kill me. All his sons and grandsons developed a bad attitude early (not all of them were here) . I had to put one of his daughters down because of aggression. She was trying to kill my herd queen and had been aggressive toward the herd mates. She also failed to settle her second season after giving me a single buck her first season and she never got a decent udder or produced much milk. I think it is mostly hormonal and that is frequently inherited. Her twin takes after the dam and is sweet and mellow and very productive. The buck that followed the aggressive one was very mellow and all his offspring are like him in that, including the bucks, except for one that was the grandson of the aggressive buck.

Yes. Grumpy is genetic.

It most certainly is! I have seen it in a few cases. I had one buck who was fear aggressive and he passed it on to some of his kids. Thankfully not all but I have one doe I am selling because she is starting to become fear aggressive as well. Her daughter shows no signs of this and I have been testing her since she was a baby to see if it will come out. I found out the the buck who was fear aggressive got it from HIS sire who was a very fearful buck.

Another doe I just recently sold because she had an edge to her and was nasty with everyone else in the herd. I am selling her daughter because I sense that same temperament and energy that I did in her mom, thankfully the other sister seems fine is a little jumpy. It most certainly can pass down into kids, it goes both ways with great temperaments just as bad temperaments. I had one buck who always passed the sweetest, most solid temperaments you ever saw, I miss him to this day :(.

Justine

Yes,and it goes the other way, too. I had a buck that passed the sweetest, best temperament kids ever, including bucks (he was very gentle and sweet too, even in rut). It came from his dam. I sold some of his offspring and offered breeding service to a couple people to him and they always comment how easy going his progeny are. I sold him and the herd that currently owns him has him up for sale again and I am so tempted to get him back, but I really can't justify it since I have him collected and in the tank. :(

My goats butt/bite chickens. :) The herd queen and other dominant animals generally never stop butting things. If they did, they'd lose their position.

I have a doe named Bungie who HATES being clipped. She will try her darnedest to bite the clippers or you (the wielder of the clippers) when you clip her sternum. (dunno why, but that's the magic spot). She also tried to bite the appraiser this year (HOW DARE YOU TOUCH MY PERSON!) But I didn't blame her after he gave her a bad score (87 to 82? ouch - different appraiser, different opinion I guess). I'd have tried to bite him, too. :D

I clipped her daughter from last year, as well as her son and daughter from this year. Her daughter form this year is out of my super sweet 3YO buck. She didn't like it, but she didn't mind.

This year's kids are an AI breeding, and I don't know what the buck is like. The buckling is the sweetest thing. The doeling will try a bite if she gets really frustrated. For example, I fed her while she was out of the pen for playtime. She was trying hard to get into the feeder from the backside (Impossible) so I wrestled her back into the pen and she put up a fight. After I shoved her through she turns around and tries to bite through an opening in the panel, which earned her a good bonking. She was also ungrateful when I then showed her that she could now get to her feeder. :) And she hates the clippers and tries to bite those too - she didn't try to bite me, though, while clipping.

Otherwise, I'm bigger and meaner than them, so they quickly learn the folly of their ways if they land a bite. IF they are really scared or angry, then I can at least understand their behavior as it is not 'common'. I'm not worried that Bungie is going to come up and bite me out of the blue. Same with her daughter, who is actually very very sweet. They are also programmed to not like things they aren't used to and things that aren't like them. My dominant goats hate anybody who is not Me or Dad, lol. That is normal behavior IMO, out of the dominant animals in a herd.

I, too, believe that heredity plays a large part. My current buck had gentle, sweet parents, and he has always been a gentle fellow. He's NEVER challenged me - not even when in full rut. He has several daughters & sons here, and all are gentle, gentle, sweet animals.

None of my does has ever offered to bite me, no matter what I'm doing to them. If they did, they would be out of here.

I'm meaner than they are, so they don't scare me. :)

LOL. That's why I don't have anything I cant pick up and move if I have to.

I'm not saying some aren't higher strung then other individuals because of heredity. I just think a lot of it is learned behavior, from the dam or from how they are raised. How they are handled, the personality of the person handling them. How many other kids they were raised with, what kind of quarters they were raised in. What the other kids personalities are. I think they are a lot like people in that way. They are a product of there environment. :shrug:

Genetic, I have traced it back 4 generations.. there are bossy animals .. that is different but meanness is something else , it is dangerous, doe butting, being mean to other does can cause abortions and or death. It is not worth it.
Just because a doe is a champion does not mean she has good temperament genes.

Just because she milks three gallons a day doesn't mean she will have good temperament either. I don't see how being a champion or milking heavy have anything to do with temperament.
I'll tell y'all my experience. I had a nice doe that I let go as a second freshener. Nice temperament, no problems. I watched her as she aged in the show ring and won and became a GCH, I tried to buy her back at different times and finally got her back as a seven year old. She is a witch at the hay feeder to the other does. I have three does that I have saved out of her the last two years. All are laid back and kind of timid really. Where she was I think she probably had to fight for what she got so now she still thinks she has to do so. I've talked about doing something with her at times but she is getting up there and I hate for her to have to move again.

I would say more nurture than nature. Not always but usually.

This discussion reminds me of some we have had about HORNS (the H word...lol). In the case of our very nice girl: She was hand raised by us...she had no contact EVER with her dam who was hand raised elsewhere...The dam was also hand raised, and on and on. I don't think that any of the kids in these lines were dam raised. That would lead me to believe that the behavior did not come from how the owners treated the girls (although I would love to believe that our superior kindness resulted in this nice girl...ahem!) Being around very aggressive, older does who knock a youngster around could result in learned bad behavior...but it could also result in learned shyness or unwillingness to fight, IMO.
Probably a combo of factors enters into the equation and each girl experiences things we don't know about...including the genetic predisposition to be aggressive. In the case of our girl's dam and granddam and actually, her great grand dam they were so gorgeous and managed to do so well in the ring that it apparently was worth putting up with their behavior...at least by those owners/breeders.

If it were nuture more than nature, you wouldn't see one or two mean or high strung ones in a herd of calm, laid back goats and the mean ones from the same sire or grand sire.

I agree, while learned behavior is most certainly there I believe it is more because of inherited personality. The buck I am talking about I brought home at 1 week of age. He was raised with a very calm and laid back wether but when he started hitting puberty his natural temperament started showing through.

Another thing is have seen is in goats that where bullied as kids or young adults once they hit 3 years of age can become very aggressive in the herd. I have seen a few cases of this happen once they reached "maturity" and came into their own. This wasn't inherited as much as a result of how they grew up.

But if you see behavior in a kid that reminds you of the parents or even grandparents that is an inherited trait IMHO.

Justine

Every herd has a hierarchy and a need (for some) a leader or two. Even this herd does:whistle:

I agree with you :). But even a herd queen is not down right nasty. A good herd queen won't be nasty for no reason. I have had a few does who while not herd queens and lower on the totem poll where nasty. I am talking caused one doe to deliver dead kids and almost caused another to abort hers through pinning them down and bashing. That wasn't a hierarchy but a nasty doe.

I think a lot plays into what a goat will be like as an adult just like with any other animal. But that being said in my personal experience of owning and breeding goats for 12 years personality and temperament is just as heridatary in my opinion as it can be with dogs or other animals. I think people don't see it as much because it either doesn't matter or just isn't noticed.

Again that is just what I have witnessed within my herd and the hers I have been around in the time I been in goats :).

Justine

Wanted to add on the doe who was nasty and bashed other does...her daughter who was bottle raised did the same thing. Never was around her dam, just inherited her tempermant.

I have bit a goat before that was being naughty. LOL.

My herd queen has never seen a need to bash anybody. She will head butt if needed, but not in a mean way and I've seen her bite an ear or two when a long eared goat was being ornery. Keeping order isn't the same as stomping everyone below you. The mean goat I shot and put in the freezer had the herd queen on the ground trying to kill her.