Help needed to wean

Yeah, I can see how calling a goat udder "support" a "bra" is so ridiculous. It's not like they are both used to provide support to mammary tissue or anything....

Dear SensibleFarmer,
I am sure your methods of goat husbandry work well on your farm. With all due respect, I ask you to be aware that this goat forum has an established climate of kindness and acceptance of the large variety of goat breeds, of goat care techniques, and (most important) of each other. In your post above, you are condescending. In your other posts, you are often snide, harsh, and judgmental toward anyone who does anything in a manner different from what you have decided works for you.

As you obviously think the folks on this forum are foolish and ignorant and make bad decisions, it might be wise to find another forum that more closely fits your ideal. Otherwise, it may be assumed that you are trolling and that you enjoy the unhappiness you cause or get some reward from stating your superiority.

Thank you,
Alice

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Wow, ladies, you are reading much into my posts that is simply not there. Really, your imaginations are quite active. Once again, I attack no one, unlike you. I state my opinions. This is the internet, take it or leave it. If I were intent on doing what you claim, I might be inclined to start calling people hon, or sweetie, just as Otter has done to me. If I meant to call someone a liar, I would. For sake of argument I accepted that the claim that udder supports were in use for a long time. I don't or didn't need to verify it, but again, being the internet there is a lot of BS floating around.

I do agree with Otter on one thing, there has never been another time in history where the quality of the breeds has been allowed to decline so badly, and that is directly related to an anthropomorphic mentality that so many people have towards their animals today. Their agricultural deficit disorder is so profound that they can't understand how to relate to their animals in any other way. I offer a different perspective, to give people something to think about in how to prevent a lot of the problems that they are having with keeping their animals. Take it or leave it, but it's not all about you, unless maybe there is something to my wisdom that hits home with you and you don't yet want to bring yourself to admit it.

Really? It's everyone else and not you?

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

I guess Sensiblefarmer is wrong - or my son humanized his car when he put a bra on it!! You might be careful if it says "butter" and you put it on your toast and not your skin. In this case a bra is a bra.

OP - My does never seem to wean their babies, they will still be nursing at a year old. I have left them together - if I cannot milk one day the does do not get sore, it works for me. Have you tried taping her teats? Sorry if I missed it

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Cathy Westbrook, Tallabred Soaps, Inc.
Purebred Nubians

Ahhh.. the ignore list. Saving my sanity one lUser at a time.

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April
Southeast Missouri
Nubians, Boers, Jersey cows and a whole lotta ticks

MDKatie, ime tenacious nursers are always either weaned early or have very tolerant mothers.
I've known any number of pups and kittens taken from their mothers at 5 weeks or so who will suck on a lovey the rest of their lives. I have a mare who was weaned far too young and as a big, strapping 4yo if she was stressed would try to nurse on our (unrelated) old mare. We all have heard of, and perhaps some here have owned, bummer lambs who learned early to sneak a nurse and will continue to do so until permanently separated from ewes - and so on.

The instinct to nurse is very strong - as it must be!! If it wasn't babies couldn't live. It is a very, very rare baby who is at all interested in weaning, no matter the age.

No, weaning is prompted by the mother. She gets tired of this big beast grabbing on her and hooved animals kick, dogs and cats find some high ground, sows quit lying down, mares nip, goats butt and however they do it, they ALL tell Junior that they are too big and old for this baby stuff any more.

And if they don't, the baby keeps on nursing. Dairy animals, bred for centuries to be very tolerant of things grabbing on to their teats, can be bad about this. So can first time mothers. I've a colt who is turning a year this week and his mother will go and stand by the fence so he can reach over it and nurse - that is her first baby and she wants to keep him her baby!

If you think about it, there is no biologic reason for any baby to ever want to quit nursing, weaning is from an outside force. Again, this is why weaning rings work. What does happen with babies is they get to an age (around 7 weeks in dogs, 10 in cats, 7 months in foals, etc) where nursing is no longer done because of instinct, but out of habit and because, well, it's nice. If an outside force, whether you or the mother, acts then, there is generally never a problem, and most animals can tolerate it a small amount of time before that.
But if you wean while the instinct is still strong, you have frustrated instinct, and it shows as extreme persistence or else as a displacement behavior, same as any other frustrated instinct. Konrad Lorenz writes an excellent piece on displacement behavior.

Darlin, I call everyone hon and sweetie and stuff like that, all it means is I've lived down South for too long. Be careful! It's contagious.
This is the internet, you'll run into all sorts of folks who speak differently and maybe even do things differently than you. Don't take it personal.

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A ship in the harbor may be safe, but that's not what ships are built for

I can see your point of the mother initiating weaning, but in my experience weaning at 8 weeks and separating for at least 2, the kids and ewes forget all about nursing and never attempt it when put back with their dams. In my opinion, leaving kids on their dams for lengthy periods of time (some leave them 4, 5, and 6 months even), then they're more likely to have issues with big, half grown goats who still insist on trying to nurse. Like you said, it becomes habit and it's harder to break a habit than to just wean earlier.

Indeed. Keeps one from becoming annoyed by trolls and troll-like behavior.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

MDKatie, while you can wean say, sheep, without health problems at 8 weeks, the mothers really will do it all by themselves between 12 and 20 (depending on the breed, season, individual ewe and if she's bred back).
On the one hand, you do have more control and have to feed the mothers less with early weaning, on the other, you've created an unnecessary stress for all animals and now have to pour all that feed and then some into the lambs just so they stay matched in growth with lambs allowed to wean naturally and creep-fed.

And while they are nursing because they're accustomed to it more than for any need at the end of the weaning period, it's not a habit in the sense that you are using the word - they haven't been on earth long enough to have a habit of that sort firmly set. That is proven whenever we lead them through a gate! LOL

And really, think about it - deer don't really have a problem with it, do they? If we watch nature shows, you never see a big grown lion snuggling up with it's mother and trying to nurse.

I bet when you wean sheep at 8 weeks, there's lots of crying and you have to separate them pretty well. The youngsters take a hit in growth that week and sometimes you might have one get hurt trying to get to each other.
Try this, just once.
Do the exact same thing, but at 4 months instead of two. By that age, the lambs still stick close to their mothers and one here or there may still suckle for a second, but the ewes will have done most (if not all) of the weaning.
Separate them then, exactly the same way you did with all your other batches, for 2 weeks, and see if you have any problems.
Also, note stress levels of both mother and offspring (I bet there's much less hollering), feed input and weight gains.
Report back to us.

Worst case scenario is - well, nothing I can think of. If they did go back to trying to suck, they won't harm or get anything as the ewes will be dry by then And you'll have "I told you so" rights here.
But I'm betting you'll find it goes a lot smoother all around and you'll have fatter lambs for market.

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A ship in the harbor may be safe, but that's not what ships are built for

Otter, with all due respect, I know what works well for me and my animals, and I'm not going to change that unless I see studies proving there's significant improvements to be made by later weaning.

My ewes already are starting to wean by 8 weeks, and I can see the lambs trying to sneak in a sip whenever the ewe stands still for even 1/2 second. Lambs at 8 weeks are fully utilizing pasture and grain (if they get any), and are fully capable of being weaned. I do usually supplement their diet with a sheep feed medicated with a coccidiostat (for prevention), and also feed a high quality hay. I let my ewes stay on pasture, because it's easier in my management system. They get no grain after weaning (and usually don't get a whole lot once the lambs reach 4 weeks or so).

By weaning at 8 weeks (which is pretty standard), I not only save money by not feeding the ewes increased feed to continue milk production (which they're slowing down on naturally by this point), but I also can get them back into condition more quickly for the coming breeding season. I can control the lambs' diets better, and make sure I can do proper disease prevention as well.

Actually, this year I did leave 1 ram lamb on his dam for an extended period, because of a housing situation. I had a goat kid break her leg, so she was confined to a small pen in the barn, and I had to put my last 2 ewe lambs in an adjacent pen for company. I had already sold all the other lambs, so the ram lamb stayed with his dam for an additional month because I didn't have room in the barn pen for 3 lambs. I noticed just as much bleating and stress on his side than I did his 2 sisters when I weaned them at 8 weeks.

But I've never had an issue with weaned young trying to nurse, even after separated for only 2 weeks.

People have to do what works best for their system, but if there are issues with weaning problems, maybe adjustments should be made.

Last year, we left the ewelings on the dam, and they did very well. In fact, one lambed out a week and a half ago.

We were going to bottle our new crop of lambs, but they did so well on the dams last year that we let them do what comes naturally. Right now, the only lamb in residence (two more ewes due to lamb out any time now) is doing well. He has his mum's undivided attention, and is growing like a greedy little weed.

I hold him on my lap and feed him tidbits, and he's quite sweet. We have the best of both: a handle-able, sturdy lamb, no hassle of bottle feeding, and no worries about mastitis.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

Quick update: Having waited nearly 2 weeks for delivery of 2 weaning nose rings from south Africa(!) how excited was I this morning when they arrived??!! Straight out to the field, attached nose ring to Tilly..............and she went straight up to Tish and suckled her dry!!! AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHH!! I think I am going to cry!! Have manufactured a "goat bra" from an old pillowcase, but struggling to keep it on her....... methinks the nail gun may come in handy!!!!

That's really not an accurate comparison. Deer have not been domesticated for thousands of generations like goats have. Well reindeer and fallow deer have, and maybe red deer, but your context insinuates wild deer. One of the first things to change in a species when it is domesticated is behavior, and they are selected for behaviors which make them more suitable for captivity, which is usually very different from how they need to behave in the wild, and that can come with unintended consequences. Also, we observe a very small percentage of wild behaviors, especially in nature shows, so how does anyone know for sure that it doesn't happen in the wild?

And it appears that I am vindicated in my view that bottle feeding kids is better than dam raising for this issue (as well as others), when all efforts so far have failed to get this kid to wean, including the notoriously effective South African weaning nose rings. Or, maybe the right dam raising advocate just haven't given her input yet.

The only goat I have ever had a problem with eating poisonous plants that the rest of the herd steer clear of was bottle raised and therefore it failed to learn from it's mother and herd mates what is and is not okay to eat. Bottle raising, in my opinion, does not help the average homesteader. And this is, in the end a homesteading forum not 'dairy professionals and elites today', it's Homesteading Today.

I cannot believe how much fuss you put up and I have yet to see anywhere you've really helped at all in this thread and others. All it seems you really wanted was someone's back to step on while mounting that high horse of yours.

One animal is statistically insignificant. There are plenty of dam raised animals which eat poisonous plants.

So too are all the weaning issues ever mentioned on this board, statistically insignificant. Likely, as well, all your experiences are statistically insignificant.

So what's your point?