FAMACHA is "abuse?!?"

Alice In TX/MO · #21 06/14/13, 10:45 AM

Laughing.... ah, would that we all do what we should do and be what we should be. All we can be is human, fallible, and prone to outbreaks of emotional responses based on our experiences, both long term and what has happened today.

where I want to · #22 06/14/13, 12:58 PM

It would take the patience of a saint not to get riled at the words "Famacha is trash. Worse than trash- it is abuse." Which is the same as saying "You use FAMANCHA so you are abusing your animals." If a person doesn't care, then her words don't mean anything. If a person does care, words like that are horribly painful. Either way they are ineffective. The world is not all about her.
If she can't see that what she is doing, which is verbal assault, is antiproductive to anything she might say, then she needs a serious time out.

Awnry Abe · #23 06/14/13, 01:53 PM

After reading the exchange, I half agree with both of you. I definately do not worm on schedule, if that tells you which halves I agree with. I think where he/she hit the mark is on the elevated status of FAMANCHA. We shouldn't go right from a poor score directly to worming, in my opinion. (actually, that is about the only thing on that side I agree with...)

I think Alice, as always, has the right protocol. I also do a follow-up FECAL to make sure it worked. FAMANCHA is one of 3-4 important tools that answer the question, "Should I worm you?". The others being body condition, general coat condition, and the FECAL. Also, I am not trying to answer the question "Do you have worms?" I have to be convinced before I reach for the wormer. I only treat if I have a high FECAL. I only do a FECAL if I am not liking the looks of the FAMANCHA AND the BCS. I have found on too many occasion that a bad reading yesterday is a good one today. I attribute that to my own lack of skill, but until I get consistent readings from one day to the next, I am going to lean heavily on the totality of the tools for deciding to worm.

The other tool in my tool chest is the "can-I-catch-her" test. I have one flighty girl that, as long as I can't lay hands on her without breaking a sweat, I will assume is 100% parasite free. (LOL. not really, but I did declare my goat chasing days over about 6 months into this operation.)

(Doesthouhavemilk, I think you are spot on in all points. Just for the record, though, I have been the guilty party that riles you up. But it only took me once to say "never again on my watch". Sure, I still have failures that result in death and/or pain, but it isn't for lack of investigation and action.)

mekasmom · #24 06/14/13, 08:32 PM

One thing that everyone should learn is that opinion of anyone else really isn't relevant to your life or to your livestock, family, pets, etc. Ignore what you don't agree with. Browse like a goat, and take the good stuff while leaving the bad. We pay vets-- those REAL medical people-- for advice. Internet advice is worth what you pay for it. It's free from a bunch of self-proclaimed experts. Just use what works for you, and ignore the rest. I certainly wouldn't get upset about any of what is said. Just ask your vet, and follow his advice whatever it may be. That is why you pay him.
I use the chemical wormers because that is my vet's advice. If your vet's advice is different then go by his advice. That is why you pay him.

harvestmoonfarm · #25 06/14/13, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

One thing that everyone should learn is that opinion of anyone else really isn't relevant to your life or to your livestock, family, pets, etc. Ignore what you don't agree with. Browse like a goat, and take the good stuff while leaving the bad. We pay vets-- those REAL medical people-- for advice. Internet advice is worth what you pay for it. It's free from a bunch of self-proclaimed experts. Just use what works for you, and ignore the rest. I certainly wouldn't get upset about any of what is said. Just ask your vet, and follow his advice whatever it may be. That is why you pay him.
I use the chemical wormers because that is my vet's advice. If your vet's advice is different then go by his advice. That is why you pay him.

I agree. However, what about people completely new to goats who are taking this info as gospel? That's what ticks me off so much about these people that come across like they're the experts and nobody else knows anything. I know enough (and have enough common sense) to take everything with a grain of salt, but not everyone would do the same, and the animals could suffer for it.

mekasmom · #26 06/14/13, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harvestmoonfarm

However, what about people completely new to goats who are taking this info as gospel? That's what ticks me off so much about these people that come across like they're the experts and nobody else knows anything. I know enough (and have enough common sense) to take everything with a grain of salt, but not everyone would do the same,

It is a lesson that people need to learn.
Honestly though, nothing on a message board or forum is worth getting upset about, especially when it comes to medical decisions. Everyone has an opinion. And people just need to learn the difference between opinions and facts. Some opinions are correct, and many are worth what you pay for them. I honestly believe that is why you see so many stories of dying goats. People just don't look for real medical advice, but just listen to opinions from the web.
Like I said. Ask your vet. That's why you pay him. Plus, he really went to medical school. And if you have a regular vet that you use, they are usually really good about just answering questions on the phone. That saves you a house call or office call.
Good luck with your goats. And enjoy them. They are such wonderful animals with such wonderful personalities. Dogs and goats are a lot alike in that way.

harvestmoonfarm · #27 06/14/13, 09:46 PM

Not everyone has access to a vet that knows how to treat goats and, frankly, many of them believe goats are disposable animals. I'm lucky in that I have 2 extremely good vets who are well-versed in caprine issues, but not everyone is so lucky.

punchiepal · #28 06/15/13, 10:44 AM

Well, I for one am thankful for these knowledgeable people that have been in goats for that long and try to help. So, THANK YOU!!! Yes, things may come off wrong once in a while. Everyone has a bad day and the internet can't convey tone or emotions so it is a little hard to understand other's intent sometimes. And sometimes people just plain don't "get it" and that can be frustrating when someone really can help.

I have been in almost the same conversation with someone. She insisted that FAMACHA & body condition was the only way to go and fecals were not necessary. Kept pointing to articles, that included fecals in the formula, but left out that important tidbit in her arguments. I just walked away.

My vet tries but just doesn't know goats that well and seems to see them as a dime a dozen type of animal, but I am starting to change his mind on that one. For example- gave totally wrong directions on doing a milk sample for a culture for one of my girls and he does cows. Thankfully, he is there if I need him but he knows that we do our best to keep our animals healthy and don't medicate unless necessary so we can get the meds we need most of the time. The other vet in town is well, might be a better cattle vet. Not sure. People like him but he nearly killed a baby goat until someone called me. Cocci - charcoal pills and Corid & barely the cattle dose for a baby that was pooping liquid all the time. He told me I would kill the goat with the dose I was recommending. Goat was fine.

Yes, vets go to school and get a piece of paper BUT goats are not often on the syllabus or are on the short list. Vets are more like a general practitioner for humans. Know a little about alot, but unless they have an interest in a specific area, they can only give general advice.

wintrrwolf · #29 06/15/13, 01:02 PM

hmmm I don't practice this Famacha only because I now run my own fecals and my goats get body condition checked at least once a week if not more. So this Famacha is a card with pics that show lid color? DO not get me wrong please trying to understand why one needs a card to tell you if the lid color is showing you "danger"??
Perhaps I am misunderstanding...
OK opening myself up here but I don't deworm on a schedule, I check fecals and deworm as needed / with what is needed. I don't believe in putting chemicals natural or otherwise in my goats unless its necessary.
Those that ridicule people for what they are doing or not doing aren't being helpful they are actually creating problems.
If I give advice it is up to whomever to take it, if I ask for advice it is up to me to go forward with it. Just because a person asks doesn't mean they are a newbie I like getting multiple answers but I weed through the information and generally use what sounds like common sense

Now some people make me laugh with their black or white outlook and some just make me want to go talk to my more intelligent goats ...

Alice In TX/MO · #30 06/15/13, 07:34 PM

Famacha is a system (a diagnostic tool), using the handy card to hold up next to the eye to compare the color of the inner lid to the pictures. Yes, it is handy for folks who are newbies, or not confident, or who like tools, or who don't see color quite the same as others.

(I taught art in a public school. Not everyone sees color the same way, and it's not just color blindness.)

Alice In TX/MO · #31 06/15/13, 08:24 PM

FAMACHA info page:

http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/FAMACHA...ainfoguide.htm

harvestmoonfarm · #32 06/15/13, 08:35 PM

I don't use the card, but I do use the FAMACHA method, along with body condition and fecals. I do not, however, worm on a schedule.

drmusho · #33 06/16/13, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wintrrwolf

hmmm I don't practice this Famacha only because I now run my own fecals and my goats get body condition checked at least once a week if not more. So this Famacha is a card with pics that show lid color? DO not get me wrong please trying to understand why one needs a card to tell you if the lid color is showing you "danger"??
Perhaps I am misunderstanding...
OK opening myself up here but I don't deworm on a schedule, I check fecals and deworm as needed / with what is needed. I don't believe in putting chemicals natural or otherwise in my goats unless its necessary.
Those that ridicule people for what they are doing or not doing aren't being helpful they are actually creating problems.
If I give advice it is up to whomever to take it, if I ask for advice it is up to me to go forward with it. Just because a person asks doesn't mean they are a newbie I like getting multiple answers but I weed through the information and generally use what sounds like common sense

Now some people make me laugh with their black or white outlook and some just make me want to go talk to my more intelligent goats ...

wintrrwolf, FAMACHA was developed for use in places where doing fecals is not possible and for large farms where fecals would require too much labor (thousands of animals). In these cases, it provides a more manageable way to identify animals that need to be dewormed, animals that are chronically heavily infested (and therefore would best be culled), and decrease the progression of resistance to dewormers in their flocks. When FAMACHA was tested they determined that lid color did correlate with severity of anemia and therefore parasite load. So, the card displays lid colors that indicate if deworming is needed or not needed.

Pony · #34 06/16/13, 08:59 PM

The blacksmith at faire today shared that there is supposed to be a FAMACHA workshop in Springfield at MSU on 6/20, given by a Dr Walker. He didn't have any more info on it, but if anyone in the area is interested in going, it sounds like it might be good.