CAE in goats

Donna, with all due respect, we disagree on this one.

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

I had this friend that got me into goats. She was a stock sale person.

She had a custom feed mix made and I would buy it from her and sometimes when I was gone I boarded my 2 milkers with her.

Then one day I came down there to pick up the feed and she had this oberhasli looking doe there she had got at the stock sale with an abcess on her neck.

I came back to get feed when she got it again, probably a month later, and nearly her entire herd was polluted with abcesses. Then she lost all the older animals she said to "pneumonia" (probably abcesses in the lungs) stopped buying feed or bringing my goats down there after that.

You can't control what your neighbor does. Run a string of electric wire keeping your goats off the fence. Easy.

Or your neighbor could buy from ANYWHERE and expose your goats to ANY disease as well. Even CL. Keep them apart.

The longer I do this, I gain a 'you can't fix stupid' outlook on life. I can help all I can, but I just don't have the time to manage other people's herds.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

I think the wonder is, why doesn't the breeder put them in their own freezer?

I have no Qs about this, I know auctions are rarely healthy animals and NO ONE should buy from them to keep as pets/breeders. If someone wants to go to an auction, it's their job to find out what an auction even is.

.....first thing, I too don't have a lot of insight into the whole auctioning off CAE positive goats we don't have CAE issues (I was lucky enough to know about CAE before I bought my first goat nor have I ever sent any goat (for any reason to a sales barn).... so that's never been an issue for us)...

You ask why they don't put them in their own freezer??? just pointing out that not all of us goat breeders, eat goat meat... (no one in my family does.. so anyone that we end up putting down for some reason.. just goes on the neighbor's bone pile for the coyotes) wasteful I know.. but it's what it is..

susie, mo ozarks

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

Not wasteful at all - you're just completing the circle of life and giving the animal back to Mother Nature

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~Trish~
http://harvestmoon-farm.blogspot.com/

One nice thing about the scrapies program is the Blue "Slaughter Only" tags that can be put into the ears of goats/sheep that are meant for slaughter only. It is unlawful to buy one of those animals at a sale barn (or elsewhere) unless it is going directly to slaughter.
When we take our positives (and some of our highly suspect) to the local sale barn we indicate that they are slaughter only. Despite having our white tags in, they get a blue tag put into their ears. Then they are purchased by the slaughter buyers (and generally at a little bit of a loss). We do not have to give a reason why. We could deem any animal of our choosing as slaughter only. They do not know, and do not care, why.
We are doing our proper part, however, in being rid of the disease.
Having said that, I have knowingly purchased CAE + Purebred Nubian does in the past. They were cheap due to their status and I gleaned 6 clean kids from the two in their time here. Including two Polled Purebred Nubian does who produced two polled doelings this year. What is sad is taht a couple of others from the known positive herd went into another herd where he knew about the disease and would just put them down if they got bad. No Prevention, no cleaning up the herd, he cared solely about the milk they would add to the herd.
Not sure I would do it again at this stage.
I would not sell a known positive to another person. I know we can do it right, but I would not trust many others to do it right. Once the doe left my herd I would have no control over it (unless it is for slaughter only).

A number of people purchase for back to the farm at our local sale barn. We have a good sized population of Amish who know nothing of these diseases. I am always pleased when they come to us because they do not want to risk a sale barn animal.

It is not ethical, to me, to sell at an auction house, a known positive, without a slaughter order. It is not working towards a solution, just chancing the continuing spread of the disease.

CAE does not affect the meat. We do not eat a lot of meat, and so one way to recoup our costs is to ship the animal once it seems appropriate. Do not think for a minute it is an easy decision. It is not, but in the end they are livestock on our farm. We have to have some income or the rest suffer.
The goats go direct to slaughter after the auction.

__________________
Roseanna
Morning Mist Herd
Journey's End Jerseys
Jerseys, Jersey/Norwegian Reds, Beef, Boers, Nubians & crossbreeds

I am the living, breathing example that validates Alice's point, but agree's with Donna's. It is easy for me to see both sides. It's kind of ironic. And I didn't even do that fore mentioned 2 minutes of basic research...

My neighbor asked me if I wanted to buy his two "boers".
I said, "Sure. What's a boer?"
"They are goats."
"Oh. Ok. I'll be right over to pick them up".
I literally dragged them home 1/4 mile on a leash. Part of the way, they dragged me. I tried to put them in a cattle corral. After watching that work for 5 minutes, I was off to buy some "goat and sheep" panels. 2 hours later and I was a goat rancher.

That version of the story has some minor embellishments, but the truth contains no less foolishness on my part. So was this collasal mistake the fault of my neighbor? It is obvious that it was mine. Changing the flavor of the situation a bit, suppose he knew, and it was obvious to him, that the goats were diseased. But to me, they just looked like a goat. So who is to blame in this case? Well obviously me, again. I could offer up "I was duped" as an explanation for my decision, but it would still be my bad decision to own up to. The auction house is just a place where this transaction happens very fast, the nube isnt quite sure how much is he paying because he doesn't understand the auctioneer, and sometimes makes a fool of himself by bidding against himself. The fate of the animal is already sealed. It is the nube that needs to either persevere through his mistakes--or drop the operation--for the sake of the animals. I do regret the supreme price that some of the animals in my care have paid for my flubs, but I am oh so grateful that I don't live in a mistake-proof world, else I would be miserably stupid.

(for the record, those two goats are still here and perfect in every way. And I am still a goat-nube. But I do find myself in the patheticly small goat section of the farm store offering advice to total nubes that tell me their first goat is at home tethered to a tree with dog leash.(quick advice: get home fast))

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Honesty and integrity are homesteading virtues.

I have no problem with people choosing to raise goats out of CAE stock, I wish we could eradicate the disease, but that doesn't seem reasonable at least at the present time. I understand that many are just tying to get by, and losing an expensive goat really hits the pocketbook.

dosthouhavemilk, you have a great attitude, and I hope more people in this situation will choose to handle the situation as you have.

For the record, I have a CAE+ doe in my herd. I bought her before I knew what CAE was, and when I found out I was already attached to her. I have absolutely no plans on culling her from my herd. I raise all her babies on CAE prevention, and it works for me. She'll never leave my property, because I refuse to sell her (because I like her) and if at some point she ever shows signs of actually being positive (she's asymptomatic now) I'll have her euthanized and she'll be buried here.

Do I blame the seller for selling her to me? No, they didn't know about the disease either. Who is to blame? I am. I could have done more research, but I didn't and it's my own fault. If people buy animals from auction, it's their own fault. Sorry, but it's pretty hard to go to most auctions and think all the animals are 100% healthy....I guess maybe someone who really didn't know a lick about animals could think they're going to get a healthy animal, but should they really be buying animals there when they know nothing about them? Probably not.

Katie, I have found out about these kinds of auctions because I have been reading on this thread. The animal auctions that I have formerly attended have been feeder calf auctions, and if one got caught bringing a known diseased animal there, they wouldn't be allowed to sell there anymore.

This is not a problem of knowing about cattle, or goats, or pigs, this is a problem of knowing that some auctions allow such things or knowing that some people would omit being forthright about the condition of their animal

But isn't that the nature of auctions? I'm not talking about breed auctions or fair auctions or private farm auctions...I mean auctions where you walk in and know zero information about the animal for sale. You can't expect to get a good animal from a place like that, right? I mean, it should be common sense to know not to buy an animal when you can't even ask a single question about it. Those are the types of auctions where culls are normally sold.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with selling a CAE+ or CL+ animal at a sale barn like that, because those animals are being sold for meat. I hadn't heard the thing about the blue tag (and that may be auction specific or area specific?), but that would be helpful to buyers.

I have never heard of the slaughter only tags. But it seems to me like this would devalue your animals depending on where you sell them or possibly be refused - I'll have to look into it. For example, we have Wolverine packing co that buys a lot of the lambs that go through Manchester Auction house, 20 mins from my house. Largest sheep auction this side of the Mississippi from what I've been told.

HOWEVER, from what I've been told, Wolverine Packing does NOT do goats. Goats that do not sell direct to local buyers (usually for meat) are SHIPPED out of state to a packing company who does do goats. This means that the auction house buys the stock and ships them hoping to make a profit. Something tells me they're not making top dollar and neither would they pay us well for them. I would definitely call your auction house and ask what they know or do with 'slaughter only' tagged animals. I'll probably be calling the scrapies tags soon, and will ask about them.

As for refusing sale of 'known sick' animals, all auctions run ill animals every day. That's usually the number one reason an animal makes it to an auction house - it's a cull. Very little if ANY tests are required for animals to be run through an auction house, and even if they did, animals are exposed AT the auction house so it doesn't matter much anyways. Last I heard the only requirement to sell animals at our auction place is that they can walk/move unassisted.

There are breeding stock auctions which might be a *little* safer and a better way to get more quality stock, but it still could be risky too.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

I googled and found this info about the blue scrapie tags:

This doesn't guarantee the health of any animal. The animal with the blue tag could be 100% disease free, and the white tagged animal could have CL, CAE, or any other disease. All it means is that the origin of the blue tagged animal is somewhere other than the farm from where it just came. If I took my own animals that were born on my farm to auction, they'd have their white tag. If I took an older ewe that I own that was bought elsewhere (and she wasn't already scrapie tagged or it was lost), then she'd get a blue tag.

It's a great way for sellers to indicate slaughter only, but buyers shouldn't rely on white tags to mean a healthy animal.

You can tag a goat with a white tag that is coming from your farm even if they were not born there. If you are doing things properly, you have the information of where that animal came from before you. The point of the tags is to trace said animal. So should a goat ever test positive for Scrapies (incredibly rare), they trace the animal by the tag number. It would trace back to your farm and you would let them know where you got the animal.
One of our CAE+ does that we shipped last winter was not born on our farm. We had had her for over 5 years though. She had her white tag from our herd and would have retained it if she had not been slated for slaughter. I filled out the form mentioned about owner statements with her included. As long as it has been within 5 years they want the address of the previous owner on the form (Scrapies Program).

The reason I knew about the blue tags was because when I called for more tags a couple of years ago I asked about color coding for birth year (since they insist on numerical order and will not allow our farm to use 1000+ for one year, 2000+ for the next, etc.) She said it would be special order but blue tags are slaughter only. I could have as many of those as I wanted but that would mean they went for slaughter.
At our local auction, they get the slaughter only tag and it is announced that they are slaughter only during the auction. They know the slaughter buyers (and I know one of them and his number...he buys the majority of the goats and the sheep at the local auction). We do not see much of a loss price wise. Especially since the buyers are going to recognize our tag numbers and the other animals that came in. The main buyer is aware of why we prefer slaughter only for those few animals as he hauled our goats to 84 in PA for us in years past (until they got down to one buyer). We were always concerned that the positives go for slaughter. He would watch and make sure for us.
He buys for a slaughterhouse in PA. The animals go to slaughter within a few days of the sale and do not go through other sales.

White tags certainly do not guarantee healthy. Blue tags do not guarantee sickly.
They are simply methods used for shipping of animals. All of our animals get white tags before going to the sale barn.

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Roseanna
Morning Mist Herd
Journey's End Jerseys
Jerseys, Jersey/Norwegian Reds, Beef, Boers, Nubians & crossbreeds

There is a facility here in southern Missouri that buys ONLY for slaughter. They weigh your animals, grade them for condition, and write a check.

http://www.bubranch.com/Oregon_Buy_Station.html

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

You do realize that not all animals sold as "slaughter only" actually go for slaughter? I have seen people buy slaughter animals (cheaper) and then use them for their own herds. We use to go to auctions to buy and sell all the time, and that was common.

One lady would buy them then resell later at a profit after she fattened the up and helped to get them looking better. That was her line of business. I know she was one of my fiercest contenders in bidding for dairy kids for my daughter. She did the same with bottle calfs, and sometimes sheep. And, of course, we just purposely bid against the nasty slaughter guy to tick him off and raise the prices extremely high. He was ........, well you know... the south facing end of a northern traveling donkey. It was worth ending up getting some overpriced duds dropped on us just to make him mad.

But, rest assured, not all animals sold as slaughter only actually go to slaughter. I actually only bid on one of those, but I didn't get it. Although, if I had, I would not have killed it just for the sake of killing it. I don't do that. And the chivo dealer would bid on ANYTHING that came to auction. He didn't' care if they were a "slaughter only" or a healthy breeder stock animal. He was just gross. I didn't like him at all.

And, I also want to correct the idea that all animals at auction are diseased....
I ended up with one CAE + goat-- an alpine. I bought her from a dairy that was supposed to be a CAE free herd with paperwork. She was pregnant with her first kid, around 18mo old. She turned out to be CAE positive. I also had two oberhasli I bought from auction, that were not CAE positive. In fact none of my other goats that I ever had tested +, although, of course they didn't all come from auctions.
I ended up taking Marcy to the auction after finding out she was CAE+. But when the slaughter guy started bidding on her, I just couldn't let her go. I bid him out, and brought her back home after paying the auction fees for my own goat. She was just too sweet to kill off like she was nothing. I ended up giving her away to an older lady who loved her until she died just last year. She was 9, and always remained healthy, but carried the virus.
My only point is that buying from a "disease free" herd is not always an assurance that you will get a perfect goat. My 2 oberhasli sisters came from the auction as kids. And they were not CL or CAE+, while the supposedly better quality goat was. And, honestly, to me it wouldn't have mattered that much because I wouldn't have killed any of them off anyway. My heart wouldn't allow it. We have had many, many goats from many different breeders and a few from the auction. And the one I spent the most for, from the most reputable breeder/dairy, was that one that was diseased. She was very sweet, but far from perfect. Just because things say "disease free" or even "slaughter only" does not mean that it ends up that way. Those are only words, not really final outcomes, you know?

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Exactly right. A friend bought a doe from someone who assured her that they were CAE negative, tested, blah blah blah. My friend did not ask for CURRENT paperwork.

The outcome was that the purchased doe had a hard udder after a couple of years, we tested, and she was CAE positive. My friend kept saying, "But XXXX's herd is negative!!"

With the CAE positive results in hand, I sent an email to the breeder (she was someone I know, too.) She kept saying, "But my herd has always tested negative." She tested again, and ALL her goats tested positive. That was when she went through her records and realized she had added one outside, untested doe about three years before my friend bought a doe from her.

It was traumatic for everyone involved.

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

You are absolutely correct. There are unethical people in all aspects of life.
There are, however, cases where slaughter order animals (carrying USDA slaughter order papers, different than the tags) always go for slaughter. The auctions have to guarantee they go only to slaughter buyers. The auction houses are going to know who their slaughter buyers are and who are not.
Once a person breaks the law and does not slaughter that animal, they have shown what type of person they are. Anyone buying from them really is a buyer beware. Assuming those blue tags were there (and not just the auctioneer announcing slaughter only), the animals once returned to the market should have gone to slaughter buyers. As long as she was not breeding and simply fattening them up, they remained in slaughter channels. It is not a smart course of action in my opinion since an animal with a slaughter order generally has it for a good reason.
I have no control over the ethics of other people. I only have control over myself. For myself, I sleep better at night knowing my test positive does (and one "prevention raised" buck) that go to slaughter (maybe 15 all told over the past 6 years? Most have died on the farm) are actually slaughtered. I always figured FooFoo and Snickers would die on the farm. We usually only shipped the does from the symptomatic line depending on when they started showing signs (anywhere from 4-7 years old). But when you are down to five test positives on the farm with over 200 head of goats and 20+ head of cattle and only two people running the farm (with one working 40 hours off the farm), you make difficult decisions for the betterment of the entire herd.

The majority of the buyers at our local sale barn, where we ship our animals that are not sold for breeding off the farm, are slaughter buyers. The main buyer being our hauler (he still hauls our bulls, steers and heifers to other sales). I know his Buyer number and buyer numbers are included on the receipts. It is pretty easy to figure out who the slaughter buyers are. A group of 6 slaughter ready wethers (60-80 pounds) are not being purchased to return to a farm at those prices per head. When that is then the buyer for the slaughter only doe on the load? It is obvious she went for slaughter as well, as intended.

As sellers we can only do everything in our power to insure that animals that we feel should not be purchased by the unknowing are sent for slaughter. If someone goes against that, there is nothing we could have done. We were ethical in our decisions. Thankfully, it is not a problem here at our sale barn, for us.
No one around here would have looked at us twice if we did not specify slaughter only. CAE (if anyone even knows what it is when you mention it) and Cl are rampant. Not all goats that go through the local sale barn have them because the good breeders around here still send their culls through the local sale barns. Culls in this case simply being the animals they no longer want in their herds for whatever reason.
We have sent perfectly healthy, strong does through the local sale barn. I did not have time to find and deal with buyers so they went with loads of meat animals. Some of them, probably most, went for slaughter. We cannot keep them all. It is a part of raising livestock.

At our local sale barn, the slaughter animals tend to bring the most money. Those buyers have to fill their orders and it is cheaper to do so here than further East where their buyers are.
We have three designations we can give the animals we bring in. Slaughter Only, Back To The Farm only and just send them through. Back to the farm means the slaughter buyers cannot bid on them...they tend to go dirt cheap...and not normally into a good home. Especially if you do so with wethers. We've told the folks at the sale barn we are not interested in losing money.
If I want a specific animal to have a specific type of home I will keep her until I find one.
Otherwise, I like them having the chance of going back to the farm (though some of the homes around here are not great and they are better off going for slaughter).
it is what it is.


I really do not know why I bother with this anymore.
Everyone is always out to prove someone wrong on these boards.
I figure you share a little knowledge with others when the opportunity arises.

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Roseanna
Morning Mist Herd
Journey's End Jerseys
Jerseys, Jersey/Norwegian Reds, Beef, Boers, Nubians & crossbreeds