Giving away goat with CL - any takers?

Two wrongs do NOT make a right.
Tolerance breeds acceptance. Just because someone else keeps a CL herd does NOT mean that everyone should. We should not tolerate CL as responsible breeders.

Education about this disease, and others, needs to start somewhere. (look up nubians and g6s) Education that this lump may not be "just a pimple" (test/quarantine for a definite answer, if you want one), followed by culling, as in killing, needs to happen to start to control this disease. It is not easy being "responsible" when we love our animals so much. Do you love DoeA more than DoeB? How do you tell DoeB that when she gets a lump on her udder by fall as she is screaming while you make the X on the abscess to drain it?! This is for the love and welfare of the animals, that the culling is done.

Ok, devils advocate here - So what if "most herds have 80% infected." Cull, meaning kill, the ones that present with it. The others either don't have it or are resistant to it. Resistance is not a bad thing. Culling needs to happen to build a herd resistant to "X" - being CL, CAE, parasites, take your pick. Heck, I have culled a doe b/c she needed more frequent wormings than anyone else, more than likely the herd is stronger now for it. Sure I could have sold her, BUT I passed on selling and getting $$ because I didn't want to pass on a potential problem to someone else, causing them to end up with a dead doe from worms or a pasture full of resistant worms.

Also, a piece of paper does not necessarily mean the "be-all-end-all of knowledge." Some get it, many don't, and some just know where to find the info in books when the time comes.

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Jennifer
Nigerian Dwarfs and Mini Saanens
capellaviadairygoats.weebly.com

Anyone know if i can give the Case-Bac? and if so, do i use the same dosage as for sheep?

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We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Benjamin Franklin

mekasmom, if you have so little concern why dont you adopt this goat? Meat herds no, its not a big deal but though no one can say their herd is 100% negative we do our best to make sure that we test and do all that we can to ensure we never have to deal with CL. Lets just take the contamination part out, who really wants a goat rubbing ewey gooey cheesy puss all over them and having to lance that constantly, I dont like trimming hooves much less messing with a nasty boil. If its not a big deal for you, your entitled to your opinion on the matter but that doesnt make ours any less valuable and heres my facts to base my opinion on, If it wasnt a concern for sheep and goats no one would have spent millions to get a vaccine for both species. There has to be cause for anyone to create a vaccine which means monetary losses have to occurs which means even in meat goats it IS a problem. Do you know why so little goat medicines exist? the cost of research cant be justified by sales revenue as there isnt much of a market, so for them to come up with a vaccine labeled for goats and made directly for goats (its not the same as the sheep) then yes CL IS A BIG DEAL. I was a vet tech for several years but thats just plain marketing 101. You also dont see signs in auction houses that say goats and sheep showing signs of CL must be sent to slaughter and they are not allowed to sell to joe blow who wants to turn them out to pasture, once again not something that would be done if it was not a big deal.

UGG sorry guys I can not get it to put my post in paragraphs its just a long run on jumble, I tried to fix it twice and it just comes out looking like it does. Now, the bad grammer if any and spelling is just me and my love for biology and history more so than for English classes.

I should probably bite my tongue and not say anything, but I'm wondering if the naysayer here has CL in her herd, which is what's causing her to be so adamantly opposed to those of us advocating culling and burning, or if it's just a case of "ignorance is bliss..."

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~Trish~
http://harvestmoon-farm.blogspot.com/

Well my vets professional opinion along with the vet goats around me is to cull any animal with cl. I have talked with he at length.

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I'm so done here.

LOL! You said what needed to be said, and you said it eloquently.

BTW, the naysaying individual said that she "worked with a vet" but doesn't say she was a tech. I was a tech, you were a tech, but she seems to have avoided mentioning exactly what she did and what training she has had.

Frankly, many of the vets I know will admit they haven't had much (if any) training/schooling in goats. It's just not a big part of the curriculum.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

I have always wanted goats. I have never had any experiences with them except to pet 1 here or there a couple of times.

I remember 1 time I asked my dad for a goat and he told me no becasue they are suceptable to too many diseases and CL was 1 of those he mentioned. This was back in the mid 70's. He said that the disease could cause any number of problems including making humans sick.

Lord I hated cooking and all that bull back when I was a high schooler so I took Ag. I was learning to weld and animal husbandry. I asked my Ag teacher about it and we did a 2 week class on goats and all the diseases they had with CL being the most talked about. This was in 81. We had the Ag manager from Texas A&M (That's been a while, it might not have been A&M but it was a big university in Tx)show up and talk about it and he even advised to cull the herd by putting the goats down.

So, i've had cattle, horses, rabbits, chickens, ducks, geese and hogs at different times through these years. But never goats. Now I am stuck in a small town and I can't have any animals in the city limits.

But if I can ever get out in the country I will have more animals again. It will not be goats unless they are tested for CL.

I have in the last year been diagnosed with Systemic Lupus, Connective Tissue disease, Rynauds disease on top of my Fibro. So I have to watch what I eat or drink. I have learned in the last year that if I am exposed to a goat with CL it could be a possiblity of dying from it because my immune system has been highly compromised.

I don't usually post in the goat forum but the person who stated not to listen to some of the people here who raise goats needs to see some herds that have been decimated with this. Not to mention the people who have gotten sick from it.

I'm sorry for the OP who has to do what she needs to do and wish her well.

Just my 2 cents.

Our local vet wanted to know why my friend cut her LaManchas' ears off. Kind of makes you lose confidence in him.

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I believe in God's willingness to heal.

Cyngbaeld's Keep Heritage Farm, breeding a variety of historical birds and LaMancha goats. (It is pronounced King Bold.)

As a person who was recently exposed to CL, there is no way I would want to have any animal with CL on my property. It is scarie to know that I have been exposed and have no way of knowing if that disease is just waiting for an opportunity to rear it's ugly head.

Being a medically licensed person, I am an RN, doesn't qualify me or anyone else necessarily to possess every bit of knowledge necessary to make all the best decisions.

I am curious but what are the symptoms of CL in humans? I always hear that people can get it but never hear what happens.... Either way, I always use gloves and wash my hands with bleach after handling this goat.

My vet indicated that CL alone didn't mean the goat had to be culled but the CL combined with all the other issues she has had does. My other goats are healthy and I intend to keep them that way. This one has had multiple issues.

Conor

Oh My Goodness...I'm so sorry !!...

When my Saanen Kidded a couple of weeks ago...I had to go in to try and help re-position one of the kids...It was an emergency...she was a week early...so i was completely caught off guard...with out thinking...I ACTED...stuck my arm in and found a set of legs...

LONG LONG story short...a few hours after help arrived and saved the day, one of the hero's told me that i should have washed thoroughly after reaching in...and that there were numerous diseases that I could contract from exposure to all of the fluids and blood... (he may not have realized how life threatening his instructions to wash came across )

I felt a PIT in my stomach...and for a week later, every scrape and scratch I had on my arms was kept covered in antibiotic cream...

So...I know how you must be feeling...I will send out good intentions that your exposure doesn't incur any negative repercussions to you or your property!!

Best of luck to you!!

Vets are human, and with that comes the usual human-opinion diversity. I have been to three different vets in our valley. One is a "beef vet" and the other two are dairy specialists. The attitude toward CL among them is divided by specialty. My beef vet is someone I respect immensely; he's a great vet. I just happen to agree more with the other two vets about what should be done to fight the disease problem because I raise pygmy goats for the pet market, not the meat market.

For dairy and pet, you breed for longevity. But who would want to eat diseased meat? Yuck.

Anita Crafton
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
Hansen, Idaho

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Anita Crafton ~ Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats ~ Hansen, Idaho

I would if I were located closer.I would rather see the animal go to someone who isn't overly terrified about the issue, or go to auction where a chivo dealer could at least use the animal. At an auction, in most states, the animals are vet checked before sale, so if it is actually a public health danger, then the vet would order it culled.

I do understand fear. I don't like feral cats because I have a fear they will spread rabies. But spreading fear just because someone can is just not kind. And it is done all over the web. That's why I suggest the OP talk to the vet. A licensed vet who actually went to medical school could lay much fear to rest. And it really surprises me that some people are so threatened by the suggestion that a person go to a real medical expert instead of relying on gossip on the web. I know there are lots of self-proclaimed experts on the web. That's how they get their little self-esteem boost. And that is ok. We all have our own problems with pride. But it is a good idea to talk to a real vet when dealing with something that concerns you so much. That is why they actually went to medical school. Believe it or not, a real vet knows more than a bunch of lay people on the web.

I know at the vet's office we had lots of goat calls for lumps and bumps, especially in the boer herds. And I saw lots of them come into the place. It is very common. The vets would just clean out the boils. And they never denied the kids or herds access to shows or fairs either. They just weren't all that terrified of the bacteria like people act on the web. It does have a potential for spread, but it is so very, very rare. How many human cases of CL were reported to the CDC in the last 10yrs? And as I said, it isn't even a reportable disease in the goats themselves. At least by calling a REAL medical person, people can get the real facts instead of just gossip passed from person to person. And if a REAL vet threatens the psyche of some self-proclaimed expert, then so be it. That is a sad state to be in when someone doesn't even realize that a vet is smarter than themselves as a layperson.

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

There is a difference between smart and educated.

Those of us who have taken the time to research CL and educate ourselves and talk to the appropriate animal vets and feel a sense of responsibility about not spreading the disease in the goat community have a different opinion than you do.

Such is life.

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Some people, even when the truth stares them in the face, will only believe "professionals" - to their detriment, and to the detriment of those who buy into the same flawed philosophy.

At a certain point, it's best to simply state the truth. Those who have good (to paraphrase Hemingway) "baloney detectors" will be able to see the baloney. When folks are new to goats, we can share what we know and let them come to their own educated conclusions based on the facts as presented.

Can't convince someone who is determined to put her faith in "professionals" over experience and facts (that experience based on the knowledge of and facts shared by professionals who have done in-depth research).

Best to save yourself the irritation of dealing with those who appear to be determined to ignore the truth.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

Well I am completely blown away by the disrespect given to Mekasmom on this subject, honestly someone (who is new at that) suggesting she go elsewhere because her opinion is different than others or worse yet that because of that opinion she has an infected herd!! SERIOUSLY..WOW! You certainly must know that MUCH of the info out on the internet forum world is in fact gossip and personal opinions based on whatever the poster has heard/experienced/researched many of those things may not be scientifically right (for instance the link to the ACES publication is completely wrong about the pus contained in CL abscesses) and suggesting that someone seek a professionals opinion is now frowned upon because everyone here knows more and has the "right" info, true there is a lot of experience and knowledge here but that does NOT make it the be all of factual info. I did not find the original post by her to take any other tone than to seek another opinion, yes then the tone changed after being attacked and going on the defensive just as the other posts did once she struck back. I am honestly appalled by this, kinda seems like the typical clique crap from high school...let's all gang up on the one who disagrees with us!



My outlook on the whole CL issue lies between the opinions stated here and it is based on my personal experience/research and MANY Vets recommendations (which range from cull to it's no big deal). Honestly I get the impression that many are ignorant to how wide spread this disease is in the goat/sheep world and how many positive animals there are and how many herds/goats have been exposed, I won't quote a number but I would bet it is close to the "80%" suggested by mekasmom. Even animals that are tested negative have been known to end up actually being positive so reliability there is bleak then there are all the owners and vets that do not consider the disease to be a "big deal" who maintain positive herds that expose thousands of animals along with the other owners who don't even know what it is ( I can't tell you how many people (with large herds) I have talked with that are clueless to the diseases existence) plus thrown in all the dishonest, out to make a buck, traders out there and you are looking at TONS of positive/exposed animals. I have dealt with CL on several occasions (at least 4 that were in animals that had tested negative for years and when pus was collected and blood on the same day the pus was positive and blood still tested negative through a reputable lab!!) due to that I have stricter quarantine/bio-security measures than most I personally know how wrong much of the "forum info" is, whether you want to admit it or not there is a lot of info given that is simply regurgitated info from someone else over and over and may not be right but when it's spread over and over it becomes "right" because now everyone says so (even here you can see where new owners who basically know nothing about goats get info here and then in a short time are giving that info to the next newcomer...did they research it or just take it as gospel because so-and-so with lots of experience said so...how do you know they are right, forum info is a tool but should not be the only one used..unfortunately for what ever reasons many use it solely in their herd management...and the same goes for Vets who don't really DO goats but spread info they are just as bad and should be ashamed that as a professional they are taking money and giving crap advice!! I do believe CL should be more seriously researched and fought to eradicate by educating not fear mongering. Truly positive animals ,in my opinion, should be culled just as any animal with a communicable disease that is simply good animal husbandry but freaking out and culling anything with a abscess is ridiculous, that is a result of fear not knowledge which is not productive in creating responsible breeders!

Nobody gave advice to cull any animal with any lump.

Nobody is fear mongering, although some folks keep throwing that in the discussion.

Education is key, as you said.

No disrespect in the comment that I made that we have come to different conclusions.

What is wonderful is that everyone has had an opportunity to express opinions and now those who may buy goats know much more information than when they started reading.

The problem, as stated to me by the vet at MSU, who used to work at UC-Davis, is that there isn't money for dairy goat research to solve this problem. So, those of us with dairy goats, and who are educated and concerned, have taken a stand. Taking a stand is not disrespect.

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

I'm a little discouraged by how such a thread became such an attack on people with differing opinions. By saying " I wonder if this person has CL in THEIR HERD" and "why don't YOU adopt the goat" took it over the top.

There are similar debates about CAE, even though it isn't zootonic ( so I know they aren't the same thing/situation). Its pretty sad that out of fear of being attacked regarding MY decision about the CAE positive doe in my herd, I choose not to post about it, even when I have concerns/legitimate questions.

And I don't see anything wrong with suggesting that somebody call around for vet's opinions. After all, do YOU know the vets in the OP's area? Do YOU know that those particular vets are unqualified to give a professional opinion? I do know there are ALOT of vets out there that don't understand or know alot about goats, but should that stop somebody from reaching out to at least find out what kind of vets there are and getting some varying medical opinions? (Apparently there is a vet somewhere around northern michigan telling people that testing goats is highly inaccurate and pointless.)

Also, if you recieved so much great info from professionals, why would you discourage this person to contact professionals for themselves?

I'm sorry about your doe, OP. And I'm sorry this thread turned ugly. I'll butt out now.

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check out our new website/blog http://mcnuttvalley.webs.com/ or email us mcnuttvalley@gmail.com

Wow! I know people have opinions and we live in America so you have the freedom to epress them. But what could have been an informative thread digressed pretty far. Everyone has different experiences because of the environment around them. Some "uneducated" people's advice I would trust over a vets. I know there a wonderful vets too. We live remote enough that i don't have the privilage of having one around so this forum is a life saver for information. Because of my lifestyle it has become important for me to accumulate as much information as possible and try to make the best decision for all involved. I don't have experience in any of the major ailments of goats, thank goodnes. If you were going to be the only one to ever consume potentially infected products from your animals then maybe there is a place for such animals, I don't know. I have found that choosing to steward animals, one must be ready and able to end its life if the need arises. Dispatching a beloved animal is never easy but when it is suffering or causing suffering we need to not hesitated as long as we are well informed on its potential or lack of it.
there is a lot of good info here, but you all need to learn to sift through and choose what aplies to your situation without expressing you personal opinion about another poster. Words don't always come out how you intend them to sound and not everyone hears things the same way. Learn to chill just a little on here. And it would be apprecieated if people would only speak from experience and not what they heard from someone else that was told to them from someone else who heard it from someone else who read it on the internet. I really apreciate the research people have done and the links, it gives one more knowledge to make better decisions.