Giving away goat with CL - any takers?

mekasmom · #21 06/03/13, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

Oh, do you? Really?

No I don't have a medical license. That is why I suggested she get advice from someone who did actually go to medical school.
I do know what I learned in the short time I worked for a vet. And I believe it is always best to contact a professional over matters like these. There are many, many false beliefs that are spread by the web that just don't bear out in medical reports. It's always best to talk to a professional when it comes to things like this. They did go to medical school, and it saves so much terror in people when they have facts instead of opinions.

Alice In TX/MO · #22 06/03/13, 06:18 PM

You know, Meka, I really do NOT have to cite credentials when you pick a fight and badmouth people here and advocate the idea that the disease is unavoidable or inconsequential. NOBODY advocated terror. They advocated eliminating the diseased animal.

I will tell you that I talked to a local veterinarian last week extensively about CL. I called the Missouri State University's vet clinic last week about CL. A friend had a scare with an abscess that turned out NOT be be CL, but I've had conversations with real veterinarians that recently.

If you don't want to read about those of us who don't want CL in our herds, then you have the option of skipping these threads.

If you sell milk, can you be sure that no consumer has a yet-undiagnosed immune system issue? The veterinarian at MSU said that AIDS patients, cancer patients, and immune suppressed individuals are at risk to contracting CL from milk produced by does with lesions in their udders. As soon as milk goes out your door to a customer, you don't know who is going to drink it. Do you want to have that kind of responsibility?

In my immediate family, my husband is immune suppressed due to a kidney transplant, my grandson spent six years in cancer treatment, and my best friend had scleroderma that went undiagnosed for years. So, consuming potentially infected milk would be dangerous for them. The possible consequences are that close to home with me.

If you want to talk to a vet, here's the number for MSU's vet clinic. 573 882 5503 They will say the SAME THINGS that we say. The vet I talked to (who has goats) said she'd put a positive goat down, too.

You don't want CL in your herd.

yarrow · #23 06/03/13, 06:34 PM

when I read posts like this...got to tell you..that I always find myself wondering about the CL status of that poster's herd....80%???..seriously doubt it...I have had goats for 10 years..have never actually seen a case of CL in person..just online...but I also try very hard to avoid herds who carry "cooties"

susie...who would cull her ENTIRE herd and never own another goat if she ever had CL show up

Pony · #24 06/03/13, 06:53 PM

Pony · #25 06/03/13, 06:54 PM

Oh. Almost forgot.

<standing ovation for Cwatkin doing the right thing even though it hurts>

harvestmoonfarm · #26 06/03/13, 07:19 PM

I bought an ND doe a few years ago (my second goat ever) that had a lump on her jaw. I was naive and had never heard of CL. As soon as I found out what it could *possibly* be, I had my husband put a bullet in that doe's head and burn the body. I WILL NOT take that kind of risk with my animals, much less my family!

Hannah90 · #27 06/04/13, 05:57 AM

To the OP- I am so very sorry you're dealing with this. This situation is quite close to home right now as I just had to give away my dearest Pearl because she had CL. She was one of my first two goats and she was and still is very special to me. She wound up going back to the friend from which I bought her. Now that I'm looking back on it, I wish I had actually just put her down. Actually, as soon as she left my farm, I wish I had put her down.

In my thinking, it is our responsibility to stop these diseases that are so darn rampant in the goat world BECAUSE folks aren't willing to cull. Culling is part of the game. If you're going to breed, you better be prepared for it. I became very angry about these diseases after my experience with Pearl, but then I realized I am part of the problem. Heidi begged me not to put her down. Begged me so much that she finally offered to take her back with tears in her eyes. Of course, there were tears in mine too. Pearl gets to live, but who else is she infecting? Now, I am a complete spaz about buying a new goat. Where have they been? Even if they are disease tested, the tests for CL are notoriously unreliable. So even if they are tested your (or my) favorite goat may have it anyway because we humans aren't being very responsible in our goat husbandry.

I respect you, OP for making the hard choice. Doing what *I* should have done. I know now, that if CL ever appears in my herd again, that animal and any of her kids will be culled. It makes tear up just thinking about it. But, if I want to be in this game, I want to be in it to make it better, not worse.

mekasmom · #28 06/04/13, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

You know, Meka, I really do NOT have to cite credentials when you pick a fight and badmouth people here and advocate the idea that the disease is unavoidable or inconsequential.

I wasn't rude. I think you should reread my posts and yours. Compare the two for attitude. Like I said, I had no idea that you had a medical degree? I don't, but that is why I directed her to a real vet.

A licensed vet with a medical degree is more educated and better able to help someone than lay-people on the internet. It is unkind to spread fear the way it is all over the web, not just here, but all over when speaking to a real medical professional would put so much of it to rest. And I'm sure her stock is worth $ too, so I wouldn't want to convince her to destroy valuable stock unless I was a licensed vet who actually knew what I was talking about.

As far as medical tests and studies, Google Scholar has a lot about CL studies. It would be a better resource than lay people too.

To the OP-- I realize you have $ into your animals. My suggestion would be to get the advice of a professional, licensed vet before making decisions based on suggestions from lay people from the internet. So much of what is put on the web is simply not true. Most goat herds in this nation are exposed to CL. Don't just throw away all your money due to that exposure. Talk to a vet who really does know what he is talking about based on his profession and credentials before making a final decision. You don't want to throw away money needlessly if it is unnecessary. But only a true medical professional would be able to give you a real medical critique.

Alice In TX/MO · #29 06/04/13, 07:03 AM

The tone of your post was confrontational, offensive, and tacky. As a former English teacher and debate coach, I could quote your post and point out each incident, but I think you are capable of seeing what others saw in your post. My phone started ringing with goat folks outraged at your post.

We are not spreading fear. I said that.

Here's the Merck Manual link that says CULL after it addresses the other options. As this is the veterinarian's handbook, I consider it a valuable authority.
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/circ...l?qt=&sc=&alt=

If I have time later, I'll post some more links to authoritative information.

Again, the bottom line is whether a goat owner wants and clean herd and to help eradicate this disease or to be part of the problem in perpetuating it.

Alice In TX/MO · #30 06/04/13, 07:07 AM

LSU's paper (about sheep) which recommends testing every six months and culling positive animals until the herd is clear.

http://text.lsuagcenter.com/NR/rdonl...tsJuly2010.pdf

For those who don't want to read the whole link, it *does* address having a positive herd and a negative herd, but the final paragraph in the treatment section summarizes that if you want to eliminate the disease, test and cull every six months until the herd is clean.

Jenniferlynne13 · #31 06/04/13, 09:13 AM

I've read a lot more than I've posted here on the goat forum. I've been trying to absorb all of the wisdom that can be found here. I have discovered that there are a few KEY people here have the kind of experience that takes a very long time to accumulate. Experience that I feel so blessed to be able to access even if just by reading previous posts. From what I've read, these people are graciously and generously passing on their wisdom and support to people who need it...they are not trying to strike fear...or terror! In some cases yes, they are giving opinions...but their opinions are based on their experience and there is a lot of value in that....!!

Yesterday, I started a thread because I found a sore on my goat's udder...Before I had received a response here, I decided to drive an hour and a half to the vet to have her looked at. When I got back to the house, I had received several responses to my post, almost all of which gave VERY similar possible diagnosis and advice as the vet gave. I was glad I went to the vet, I did feel a peace of mind that things would be OK, but the lesson learned was that many of the people here can and do offer VERY good advice and information!
ALSO.....
I have learned A LOT by reading this post, about CL and about the proper respect and perspective necessary to deal with it!! Thank you to all who have shed light on the proper path forward in dealing with this terrible problem. Perspective is KEY ~!

I look forward to learning more from several of you in the future...
Thanks for being here and sharing your knowledge~~

fishhead · #32 06/04/13, 10:34 AM

What's wrong with giving her to a herd that is CL positive?

Jenniferlynne13 · #33 06/04/13, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

What's wrong with giving her to a herd that is CL positive?

From everything I read in all of the posts and informational links provided...it doesn't sound like anyone should be keeping a CL POSITIVE HERD!!!
The disease needs to be destroyed...which sadly means the infected animals need to be as well....

cwatkin · #34 06/04/13, 11:07 AM

Yeah, my plan is pretty much set to cull her when I have everything ready, then burn the body. She has had several other health issues I didn't even bring up as CL is really the dealbreaker. I think that either the CL has weakened her or she is just weak in general.

Conor

Jenniferlynne13 · #35 06/04/13, 11:14 AM

I am so sorry that you have to go through this....
It is just so sad to have to do...but it would be so much better to have a healthy herd than have the constant worry of a disease ruining it all!!

Good Luck to you!!

mekasmom · #36 06/04/13, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenniferlynne13

From everything I read in all of the posts and informational links provided...it doesn't sound like anyone should be keeping a CL POSITIVE HERD!!!
The disease needs to be destroyed...which sadly means the infected animals need to be as well....

Unfortunately, in the US, that is not going to be possible at this time. It isn't even a reportable disease. And something like 80% of all goat herds do have the bacteria within the herd itself.
It's actually not something that any of the vets I have seen are super fearful or terrorized about either. I have honestly never seen a vet go towards an animal with gloves, mask, and other gear to protect themselves from the bacteria. I have seen them wear gloves when lancing boils, but not just to touch and handle the goats no matter what their CAE or CL status. It's just not seen as such a terrorizing thing by them as it is made out to be on the web. Around 4H time, a lot of kids come in with goats that have boils or other issues. The vets would lance them and clean them out. They were never fearful nor did did any of them ever suggest anyone kill off their stock unless it was really sick with symptoms. And farmers would have the vets come out to lance lumps too. It is just part of the job. Nobody ever seemed fearful about it.
And it is always best to talk to a real vet who went to a real medical school and is licensed. There are lots of self-ordained "experts" all over the web on all sorts of issues. But going to a REAL expert is always the best choice. I know that threatens some people, but it is the best option. It's just a phone call to your own vet for a question or two. And recommending someone go to a real professional, licensed doctor, is always the best advice. It would avoid a lot of unnecessary fear and worry if people actually talked to a real doctor instead of just following gossip found on the web here and there.

o&itw · #37 06/04/13, 02:56 PM

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/

Minelson · #38 06/04/13, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

Unfortunately, in the US, that is not going to be possible at this time. It isn't even a reportable disease. And something like 80% of all goat herds do have the bacteria within the herd itself.
It's actually not something that any of the vets I have seen are super fearful or terrorized about either. I have honestly never seen a vet go towards an animal with gloves, mask, and other gear to protect themselves from the bacteria. I have seen them wear gloves when lancing boils, but not just to touch and handle the goats no matter what their CAE or CL status. It's just not seen as such a terrorizing thing by them as it is made out to be on the web. Around 4H time, a lot of kids come in with goats that have boils or other issues. The vets would lance them and clean them out. They were never fearful nor did did any of them ever suggest anyone kill off their stock unless it was really sick with symptoms. And farmers would have the vets come out to lance lumps too. It is just part of the job. Nobody ever seemed fearful about it.
And it is always best to talk to a real vet who went to a real medical school and is licensed. There are lots of self-ordained "experts" all over the web on all sorts of issues. But going to a REAL expert is always the best choice. I know that threatens some people, but it is the best option. It's just a phone call to your own vet for a question or two. And recommending someone go to a real professional, licensed doctor, is always the best advice. It would avoid a lot of unnecessary fear and worry if people actually talked to a real doctor instead of just following gossip found on the web here and there.

That is exactly how it is here. No big deal. Lance and move on. But I am so happy to be informed of such a potential danger to my beloveds. I already have Johne's on my property so I am hyper sensitive to these diseases and get very frustrated with the lack of serious consideration from SOME vets. What may be a big deal to some may not be to another. I have been given a lot of compassion and patience though and so grateful for that. There just are not any black and white answers to these diseases. I guarantee you that since I choose not to cull that this is biosecurity lock down. Luckily we don't have deer passing through close by. This is how closely I have analyzed this. If it were CL I can honestly say I don't know what I would do. This thread is making me think about that new goat CL vaccine again. Even though I have a CLOSED HERD>

Jenniferlynne13 · #39 06/04/13, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

Unfortunately, in the US, that is not going to be possible at this time. It isn't even a reportable disease. And something like 80% of all goat herds do have the bacteria within the herd itself.
It's actually not something that any of the vets I have seen are super fearful or terrorized about either. I have honestly never seen a vet go towards an animal with gloves, mask, and other gear to protect themselves from the bacteria. I have seen them wear gloves when lancing boils, but not just to touch and handle the goats no matter what their CAE or CL status. It's just not seen as such a terrorizing thing by them as it is made out to be on the web. Around 4H time, a lot of kids come in with goats that have boils or other issues. The vets would lance them and clean them out. They were never fearful nor did did any of them ever suggest anyone kill off their stock unless it was really sick with symptoms. And farmers would have the vets come out to lance lumps too. It is just part of the job. Nobody ever seemed fearful about it.
And it is always best to talk to a real vet who went to a real medical school and is licensed. There are lots of self-ordained "experts" all over the web on all sorts of issues. But going to a REAL expert is always the best choice. I know that threatens some people, but it is the best option. It's just a phone call to your own vet for a question or two. And recommending someone go to a real professional, licensed doctor, is always the best advice. It would avoid a lot of unnecessary fear and worry if people actually talked to a real doctor instead of just following gossip found on the web here and there.

I don't think there is anything wrong with seeking professional medical advice. I did it yesterday, and was glad I did...but as i said...the nice people here in the forum also offered me the very same advice and suggestions that a REAL expert gave me.

That REAL expert by the way, wore gloves during the whole exam of my goat's rash...and this was just a superficial rash, likely caused by the wet then hot weather we have had or possibly spurred by bug bites....

Large animal vets are not always easy to come by ...especially when you live out in the boonies. Having a forum like this to turn to when you have questions that others may have encountered is a GOOD thing!!

If you don't approve of the forum environment where people can ask questions or lend support to others in need of if...why bother with taking all the time you have taken, to post here? It seems to me like your energy may be better suited elsewhere...maybe there is a Veterinary Advocacy Forum out there that you could join.

I think people come here because they are looking for someone to talk to...someone who has experienced what they are going through, someone that can help alleviate a bit of anxiety that goes along with the ups & downs of animal ownership & trying to do the right thing for your animals & farm...

I am here to become a part of a community of people that I share something in common with and that I can turn to when I have questions or need advice...In just a few short days, I have found that here...and while I do think that maintaining a relationship with a professional veterinarian is any animal owners duty and obligation...I don't agree that every question needs to be directed to a vet...ESPECIALLY when some people here have had more "hands on" experience with these animals than some vets have had in their entire careers (ie the first large animal vet that i had come to my farm told me he hardly ever treats GOATS...this time, I called him...he told me he wouldn't worry about the rash...just to keep it dry.) I received more valuable information and caring support here at HST from one new thread than that phone call to the REAL professional...He could have cared LESS about my worry or my animal's discomfort. Because I am a responsible animal owner I called another Vet...and from this one, that I ended up driving to...I got the same suggestions and advice that I received from people here!!

Your anger/bitterness towards the people here in the forum is really too bad!!....Sure there are people who will post things that may cause unnecessary fear...but that is why it is called a FORUM...multiple people can chime in...and the person issuing the post can read and discern which responses if any they wish to consider when taking action.

When you say: It would avoid a lot of unnecessary fear and worry if people actually talked to a real doctor instead of just following gossip found on the web here and there." I think that statement is a clue to me that you are not completely aware of what is taking place here... gossip?...I guess the fact that you perceive the advice and moral support that can be found here as gossip? is enough for me to understand that you probably should stick to some other kind of forum...one where people don't ask questions. But I'm new here so maybe I'm over stepping my freedom of speech privileges

Well...that's more energy than I had intended on giving to this reply....I do wish you the best...and hope you are able to find a forum where your sensibilities are not as offended as they seem to be here.

~Jenniferlynne

Minelson · #40 06/04/13, 03:30 PM

I just want to add....Not one of the five vets I took Gretta to ever mentioned or thought of Johnes disease. It was on this forum...it was the strong suggestions from members here that made me gather the sample and send it to the lab to be tested for Johnes. Just so I could check that box because I was desperate for answers. And it came back positive