A member needs some help

GoldenWood Farm · #21 04/08/13, 09:50 PM

I would get her some blackberry leaves, it won't hurt in any way. I would go ahead and give her also 10 grams of the Probiotics paste. Check Prima's gums against the other does and see is she is paler or not. Is she chewing cud at all? If you need to (I have never done this) you can steal fresh cud from another doe and get it down Prima, I would try the probiotic paste first though.

Check her flesh and see what kind of elasticity it has, does it stay tented for a while or does it "snap" back pretty fast? What about her eyes? Do they look really sunk in or are they okay? These where signs I looked for when my buck was severely dehydrated. If you are terribly worried about her getting enough fluids and you have the patience you can syringe it into her a little at a time. It takes a LOT of patience and time to do this and I would use pedialyte or something like that. I gave my buck at least a gallon a day this way when he was dehydrated. I figured the worst that would happen is he would just have to pee a lot

.

I am still racking my brain!

Justine
ps: I am PM'ing you my cell number JUST in case you need to get a hold of someone ASAP.

GoldenWood Farm · #22 04/08/13, 09:56 PM

Oh! Vitamin B Complex! Have you given her any? If not I would go ahead and give her a shot, it should help stimulate her appetite and it sure won't hurt her right now.

Justine

Lorelai · #23 04/08/13, 10:22 PM

She is getting 5 cc of vitamin B complex daily. Yesterday it was injected, today we gave it orally.

She went for the blackberry leaves! And best of all, I heard her tummy making noises! Like hungry noises. I'm really hopeful that her rumen is starting to kick back in, especially since she is eating. I haven't seen a new poo pile since giving the 3 fl oz "loading dose" of kaolin pectate a few hours ago. I gave her another 30 cc dose (2 T) just now. I will try to get at least pint of my homemade elecrolytes down her before bed; I'm giving it to her in 30 cc increments as well. It's slow.

GoldenWood Farm · #24 04/08/13, 10:44 PM

Good! Yeah giving it only 20-30cc's at a time is a VERY slow process, I feel for you. I would keep giving her blackberry leaves everyday (as much as she will eat) and also keep up on the probiotics. It sounds like she is on the road back to recovery, not out of the woods but you are getting there. I just want to say you are doing AMAZING with her! Kudos for being so patient and working hard on her, it isn't easy (been there many times).

Justine

KrisD · #25 04/08/13, 10:46 PM

The Kaolin pectin is working if you haven't seen any poop in a while.
Justine her skin does not tent and her eyes are not sunken in, I checked when I was there.
Tell Shane it's time to build you a milk stand

I would keep offering her blackberry leaves since we know she likes it. The salt won't really hurt her at this point, it's hard to get too much salt with a block.

GoldenWood Farm · #26 04/08/13, 10:49 PM

Thanks KrisD

. It sounds like she wasn't too dehydrated (not saying she wasn't but she wasn't horrible). I am thankful you live so close by! I am lucky to have a lot of goat people near me, I don't know what I would do without them. I agree about the milkstand

.

Justine

Crazy Farmgirl · #27 04/09/13, 07:49 AM

Lorelei, I did not mean any disrespect. I don't know your area I also don't know you or your experience with goats. You seem to be grasping, I simply suggested a vet.

As I stated before I would be looking into cocci or another opportunistic bug/illness that due to her being stressed was able to flourish.

I would give fluids SQ, even if she is not showing signs of dehydration it will help her.

I would also try to find something she is willing to eat. When my doe was off feed after her abortion I found she would eat lettuce, cabbage and acorn squash, she lived on that for days. I tried all kinds of stuff before we found a winner. I also gave her Tums and chewable vit C daily and CMPK every day, figured it won't hurt. Yogurt is good also. Stealing a cud is an option also.

Hope you can find the magic food for her and she turns around for you. I would stay away from grain for right now.

Minelson · #28 04/09/13, 08:37 AM

Just reading through this again and thought of 2 things....
1. have the goats been tested for Johnes Disease? The comment about wasting made me think of that.
2. you can send fecal samples here and get a report for $5 per sample plus shipping
http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/instructions.php
Praying she gets better soon!

Lorelai · #29 04/09/13, 03:03 PM

Prima seems a little improved today, but she still has loose poo. She has had two doses each of 45 cc kaolin pectin today, because I'm worried that the diarrhea is her biggest enemy right now, though she doesn't seem super dehydrated. She's had another 5 cc of B Complex and 15 cc of Red Cell. She's had another 10 grams of Probios gel, which she actually seems to like, and she has gotten up and moved around after each dose of Probios gel. I cut a wheelbarrow full of blackberries for her, which I will dole out as she expresses interest - she ate some just now. She goes through little periods where she seems more herself - her ears are perked up, etc. But then I think she gets tired. She licks the salt block still, and she also voluntarily drank at least a quart of warm water this morning.

It seemed like she tried to cough up some cud after eating the blackberry leaves, but I don't think she was successful. Would it hurt to try the "steal cud from another doe" tactic? Has anyone tried or had success with that... any thoughts at all? I don't think it would hurt at this point, and maybe her digestive system needs that second stage of chewed up food?

I'm also thinking about the canned pumpkin to address diarrhea.

Crazy Farmgirl, I'm sorry if I came off as terse. This situation is really stressing me out. I want so badly for Prima to pull through this, and at some points all I'm left with is watching and waiting to see if what I'm doing is helping or not. At this point it probably wouldn't hurt to do a fecal; I just need to think of who best to call. I am fairly new to this. Can you elaborate on giving fluids SQ? She will drink voluntarily, to a point. She will eat blackberry leaves, and she mouths at the hay (which is good local second cutting grass hay).

KrisD, we're scratching our heads over the milk stand. We have a stanchion?

Prima had the CMPK injection yesterday and the day before, two shots on each side both times. Does she need more?

Minelson, I don't think it is Johnes, but if she pulls through this, I want to test the whole herd for the major things, just in case. She came from a small, well respected herd and a responsible breeder. Thanks for the prayers - she could certainly use them.

Minelson · #30 04/09/13, 03:19 PM

I am wondering why you are giving the red cell?

Stealing cud is a really good idea. Use a popsicle stick or a small spoon to save your fingers.... I have a video somwhere on stealing cud. Don't get any on your jueans...it doesn't wash out

Minelson · #31 04/09/13, 03:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU...&v=cUF8-40S-DQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU...&v=wMI3eEmwj5I

I don't know why the first 2 you have to click on .... I posted them all the exact same way!

Please ignore my hubby in the 3rd video

Lorelai · #32 04/09/13, 03:28 PM

KrisD suggested the Red Cell. At this point I can't remember why, maybe just for an extra boost. We weren't sure if we were supposed to give it today or not. But maybe you didn't think she would make it this far, Kris, even though you put a good face on?

I will do a bit of research on cud stealing (anything like "kid"napping?), and make sure I don't wear anything I care about.

ETA: Thanks, Minelson! I will get watching!

GoldenWood Farm · #33 04/09/13, 03:31 PM

I am glad she is still hanging in there! I would really recommend having a fecal done, it can at least tell you what you are not dealing with which might be helpful. I would be trying the canned pumpkin as well if I was you. It won't hurt her and hopefully would help even more with her runny poop.

Here is a video I found on how to steal cud. I am not sure how easy it is as I have never done it.

I am still praying for you and Prima! I know how helpless it feels to just sit and watch. You are doing awesome with her

.

Justine

Minelson · #34 04/09/13, 03:33 PM

Red cell is normally for anemia and you mentioned that her eye membrane had some color to it. That is why I'm wondering. I understand how hard it is when you are throwing every thing at the goat and hoping you could discontinue something if not needed.

Maybe KrisD will chime in. She has more experience than I do

Minelson · #35 04/09/13, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenWood Farm

I am glad she is still hanging in there! I would really recommend having a fecal done, it can at least tell you what you are not dealing with which might be helpful. I would be trying the canned pumpkin as well if I was you. It won't hurt her and hopefully would help even more with her runny poop.

Here is a video I found on how to steal cud. I am not sure how easy it is as I have never done it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZJTqVj1yCY

I am still praying for you and Prima! I know how helpless it feels to just sit and watch. You are doing awesome with her

.

Justine

Holy cow!! That is a massive piece of cud in that video! Mine would have swallowed it the moment I put my thumb across the bottom. I had to trick her

Lorelai · #36 04/09/13, 03:37 PM

Okay... both videos suggest that putting the cud immediately into warm water will keep the bacteria alive or whatever. But Minelson, yours suggests straining out the cud and injecting the "cud juice" orally. The other video says to get the cud ball deep into the sick doe's mouth. Which is better? Should I try the solid ball first? That's what I was envisioning. Maybe I'll do both.

About the canned pumpkin. How much? Do I just see if she'll eat it, or is there a way to guarantee she gets some down?

I will also keep going with the kaolin pectin until I'm told not to.

Minelson · #37 04/09/13, 03:45 PM

I'm sure the guy in the other video knew waaaaaaymore about stealing cud than me! So I would do it his way. I just didn't know how to get it into Gretta without stressing her out so I thought just drenching her with it would be better than nothing. I also didn't have that much from my little Tinker...but she was the only one who volunteered! If you can get a big blob down her that would be the best in my opinion

GoldenWood Farm · #38 04/09/13, 03:47 PM

It looks like from what I read on a different forum that they gave 1/2 cup canned pumpkin 3-4 times a day. You could try and see if she will eat it and if not make it a little softer and syringe it into her mouth. But you want to get just plain canned pumpkin (no added stuff to it or pumpkin pie filling).

I have no clue on which was is better for getting cud down a doe. I have always heard of just giving the doe the cud ball (not just the juice) but I think it doesn't matter as long as you get the good bacteria down her throat. That is the whole point of stealing cud from a healthy doe.

Justine

Minelson · #39 04/09/13, 03:52 PM

I would also slow down on everything you are introducing to rumen. I wouldn't do the pumpkin unless you stop the kaopectate. It's important to keep the bacteria in the rumen as stable as possible and adding different things messes it up. Just my opinion. Less is best with loose stool. Her gut needs to rest a bit. Nice dry grass hay and regular clean water sounds good to me.
I would do a fecal test though...in case there is some kind of protozoan, worm, cocci, giardia, somanella or something like that going on that she is not recovering. ((((hugs))))

Lorelai · #40 04/09/13, 03:52 PM

Yep, okay, cud stinks!

Got the drop on Zanadu and got a little, Prima might have eaten a bit but I also know she spit some out. Maybe need to recruit help. One to hold her with her head up a bit, the other to stuff the cud down. Without choking her. Like getting a pill down a dog. Hopefully.

Okay, off for take two. Blech.

ETA: The problem is that she won't eat the grass hay, and each time I let up on the kaolin pectin, her stool gets really loose again.