My year to experiment.....

Lorelai · #21 02/20/13, 01:48 PM

Oh man. If I wasn't extremely nervous for my first kidding season, I sure am now!

I will be happy to start a new thread if need be (I don't want to hijack or anything), but I think I need some advice.

Prima - Bred Dec. 7, due approx. May 6. We're still milking her, she gets what grain (16%, organic, for dairy goats) she can eat while on the stand (we have a surge milker), and we plan to dry her off in the next couple of weeks.

Zanadu - Bred Dec. 21, due approx. May 20. Same as Prima... might stagger the drying off period though, let her milk just a bit longer than Prima.

Mabel - Bred Jan. 16, due approx. June 15. She's been dry since October. She is part of our herd, but is owned by someone else; it's complicated. We look after her though.

They all get free choice baking soda, loose minerals, and pasture. We give them organic alfalfa hay, since here it's a better bang for your buck than the grass hay. They (along with a Boer cross wether) go through a 100 lb bale in approximately 5-7 days, depending. Starting as soon as I have it in my hot little hands, I will start them all on Replamin Plus. I haven't heard anybody say this isn't okay for lactating/bred does.

Once I get them dried off, then what? Some of the stories upthread sound truly dreadful! Should I be worried about the alfalfa hay? Or are most of the issues coming from those who feed pellets? When and how much grain should they get before kidding? There is just so much conflicting information out there, it's totally confusing for the first freshener human...

creekmom · #22 02/20/13, 01:58 PM

Wow Crystal. It is such a good feeling for you to finally figure out what is going to work or what's not going to work. That is awesome. I have five Nigerians that are due soon, the first one on March 4th. I have been doing the alfalfa/whole oats routine with them starting on day 100. I wasn't able to afford to leave out the alfalfa pellets free choice so each of them have been getting 1 cup of alfalfa pellets, and I have worked up to 1/4 cup whole oats so far with a handful of rice bran pellets twice a day. They all have free choice grass hay and I have been also doing the Replamin Plus. To say I am a nervous wreck about the upcoming kidding is an understatement. I have only had 2 kiddings here so far a couple of years ago and they both went perfect. This last year is when I started with the pellets/grain as was advised on another forum. I hope I haven't been giving them too much too soon to cause them to have huge kids. I will be glad when I get it all figured out what works for me. So glad to have found this group and I sure don't mean to hijack this away from your original post.

Frosted Mini's · #23 02/20/13, 06:51 PM

Crystal, I think there is primary ketosis, and secondary ketosis. The ketosis caused by milk fever, is secondary, but I do believe they can have primary, which is not started by hypocalcemia. I think probably in dairy goats, it is just more common to get a secondary ketosis, but I am sure there are plenty of goats that have had ketosis on its own.

MDKatie · #24 02/20/13, 07:03 PM

And there is such a thing as pregnancy toxemia. I've seen it in sheep more than goats. They just can't physically eat enough hay since their rumens have so little room in their bodies due to the fetuses. They need more calories (like grain) in order to keep up with demand.

**mygoat** · #25 02/20/13, 10:09 PM

Pregnancy toxemia IS ketosis. And you can have Ketosis without hypocalcemia (Milk fever) but any 'pregnancy disease' that causes an alteration in health can quickly lead to another pregnancy disease simply due to altered/lowered intake of ration. Common pregnancy diseases are ketosis and hypocalcemia.

Generally with good calcium mobilization, a goat can have ketosis and get treated and not have to have calcium as well, necessarily. milk fever is a Calcium HOMEOSTASIS problem - whereas ketosis is a negative energy balance. Release of Ca from bones is a hormone regulated process. If an animal is exposed to high amounts of Ca in diet much more than needed for maintenance (which is NOT a lot), then these hormones kinda get 'shut off' because they're not needed. Then when they are suddenly needed at onset of lactation, the hormones do not just 'turn on' quickly enough, causing low blood calcium levels because the doe cannot take enough in through diet and cannot mobilize it from the bones like she *should* be doing. In dairy cattle, DCAD diets are utelized to put the animal in NEGATIVE Ca balence in the last few weeks of pregnancy to ensure proper homeostasis response at calving. Ketosis is due to carrying too many kids and/or poor nutrition in late lactation. The body tries to mobilize body fat to make up for the negative energy balance, incompletely oxidizes it in the liver to make energy, and as a byproduct produce Ketones that futher supress the appetite of the animal, making the situation worse.

You *can* have both at the same time but you do not *have* to.

Lorelai · #26 02/20/13, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Pregnancy toxemia IS ketosis. And you can have Ketosis without hypocalcemia (Milk fever) but any 'pregnancy disease' that causes an alteration in health can quickly lead to another pregnancy disease simply due to altered/lowered intake of ration. Common pregnancy diseases are ketosis and hypocalcemia.

Generally with good calcium mobilization, a goat can have ketosis and get treated and not have to have calcium as well, necessarily. milk fever is a Calcium HOMEOSTASIS problem - whereas ketosis is a negative energy balance. Release of Ca from bones is a hormone regulated process. If an animal is exposed to high amounts of Ca in diet much more than needed for maintenance (which is NOT a lot), then these hormones kinda get 'shut off' because they're not needed. Then when they are suddenly needed at onset of lactation, the hormones do not just 'turn on' quickly enough, causing low blood calcium levels because the doe cannot take enough in through diet and cannot mobilize it from the bones like she *should* be doing. In dairy cattle, DCAD diets are utelized to put the animal in NEGATIVE Ca balence in the last few weeks of pregnancy to ensure proper homeostasis response at calving. Ketosis is due to carrying too many kids and/or poor nutrition in late lactation. The body tries to mobilize body fat to make up for the negative energy balance, incompletely oxidizes it in the liver to make energy, and as a byproduct produce Ketones that futher supress the appetite of the animal, making the situation worse.

You *can* have both at the same time but you do not *have* to.

What constitutes too much calcium? How does this happen?

MDKatie · #27 02/21/13, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Pregnancy toxemia IS ketosis.

I was referring to Sue's link where she says it's a misnomer to call it pregnancy toxemia.

Quote:

And you can have Ketosis without hypocalcemia (Milk fever) but any 'pregnancy disease' that causes an alteration in health can quickly lead to another pregnancy disease simply due to altered/lowered intake of ration. Common pregnancy diseases are ketosis and hypocalcemia.

Generally with good calcium mobilization, a goat can have ketosis and get treated and not have to have calcium as well, necessarily. milk fever is a Calcium HOMEOSTASIS problem - whereas ketosis is a negative energy balance. Release of Ca from bones is a hormone regulated process. If an animal is exposed to high amounts of Ca in diet much more than needed for maintenance (which is NOT a lot), then these hormones kinda get 'shut off' because they're not needed. Then when they are suddenly needed at onset of lactation, the hormones do not just 'turn on' quickly enough, causing low blood calcium levels because the doe cannot take enough in through diet and cannot mobilize it from the bones like she *should* be doing. In dairy cattle, DCAD diets are utelized to put the animal in NEGATIVE Ca balence in the last few weeks of pregnancy to ensure proper homeostasis response at calving. Ketosis is due to carrying too many kids and/or poor nutrition in late lactation. The body tries to mobilize body fat to make up for the negative energy balance, incompletely oxidizes it in the liver to make energy, and as a byproduct produce Ketones that futher supress the appetite of the animal, making the situation worse.

You *can* have both at the same time but you do not *have* to.

Totally agree, that's why I don't feed any alfalfa prior to freshening.
(for hypocalcemia).

wintrrwolf · #28 02/21/13, 08:00 AM

I mix my alfalfa pellets in with grain ration since I can not afford alfalfa hay here, I have thought of trying the Chaffaye but have misgivings concerning when you are dealing with livestock that has to have something moving through their rumens almost all the time and the browsing is down to minimum I feel better giving them regular grass browse hay.
I used to mix so much more stuff in their feed but have reduced to minimum now with the replemin as an addition and have wonderful results with all my goats, kidding so far has gone well Heidi the 7 yr old goat I got is still not in top form but is getting better guess the older one gets the slower one is able to bounce back?
I definitely am a firm believer that simple is best, less things to rule out if something is off.

southerngurl · #29 02/21/13, 08:03 AM

Mygoat, where are you getting this info on hormones? I find it hard to believe with all the successful northern herds that feed straight alfalfa year round like BlissBerry.

copperpennykids · #30 02/21/13, 10:27 AM

We feed alfalfa year round and never had hypocalcemia (milk fever).

And we have heavy (1 1/2 gallon/day or more) milkers.

We have had the beginnings of ketosis in two of our Boers - they were carrying quads and quints. We supplemented them with an energy (molasses, karo syrup, and MFO) drink once a day until they kidded. One had kids weighing a total of 43 lbs, the other the kids weighed 38 lbs. The doe was fine, the kids were fine (one of the quints was stillborn). And the does had plenty of milk to feed them all.

I think if you have herd wide problems, you need to closely examine your management. If you have an isolated case, by all means jump in and help that doe, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

copperpennykids · #31 02/21/13, 10:30 AM

Agree with the lower protein for grain. (12% seems to spot on) and 1/2 - 3/4 of the grain they will receive at full lactation seems to be working for just about everyone.

Please note that our alfalfa is about 20-22% protein. If your hay has less, YMMV.

LoneStrChic23 · #32 02/21/13, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wintrrwolf

I mix my alfalfa pellets in with grain ration since I can not afford alfalfa hay here, I have thought of trying the Chaffaye but have misgivings concerning when you are dealing with livestock that has to have something moving through their rumens almost all the time and the browsing is down to minimum I feel better giving them regular grass browse hay.
I used to mix so much more stuff in their feed but have reduced to minimum now with the replemin as an addition and have wonderful results with all my goats, kidding so far has gone well Heidi the 7 yr old goat I got is still not in top form but is getting better guess the older one gets the slower one is able to bounce back?
I definitely am a firm believer that simple is best, less things to rule out if something is off.

Chaffhaye is just alfalfa. Just like alfalfa pellets except it retains some of the natural plant juices..... It has probiotics, a natural beneficial yeast and the fermentation process that starts in the rumen has already been started in the Chaffhaye making it more digestible...... Not sure I understand your misgivings about it compared to pellets as an alfalfa source. Unlike pellets, it has stems that vary in size from 1"-10" long which I think is good for the rumen as well.

I still feed a weedy mixed grass hay free choice (the Chaffhaye simply replaces pellets), but I have noticed the goats, by choice, consume less grass hay now than they did when getting their alfalfa pellet ration. My milk yeilds we're also higher with the Chaffhaye even though I feed the same amount of pounds of Chaffhaye as I did in pellets (& that was with reducing my grain by 1/4)... I know Chaffhaye has been heavily marketed for horses, so things like "total hay replace" & "reduces hay belly" are more of the horsey perks.... For goats I don't want a reduction in their reduction in their rumens and I don't have that..... Big, full, happy rumens here

I know some use it in goats as a total hay replacer, but I don't have browse, so I like the girls to have a variety on long stemmed plant items which is why I leave out grass hay & cut browse for them