Kidding season abnormalities
 

I've noticed this kidding season that things are not going as usual. For some unknown reason to me, I've had more stillborns and losses of multible birth kids than usual. I've also noticed mothers with good track records of being good mothers ignoring their duties heavily.

Is anyone else seeing this problem this season?

The goats are parasite free according to a fecal egg sample. They are getting a good loose mineral for goats with extra selenium and copper.

They are getting 3% of body weight in 14% creep pellets daily, as well as free choice grass/weeds hay. (first cutting with lots of broad leaf weeds that they love) Also getting feed top-dressed with chaff alfalfa hay to supplement grass hay and keep rumen healthy.

They have clean water, good housing, and seem otherwise healthy. I know their feed is lacking in good fat content and they are a little more ribby than I care for this time of year, but we're in a three year drought and there's not been good green growth last Fall to have them fat and sassy going into the winter.

I can understand the stillborns associated with triplets and quad births. Sometimes it's nature's way of making sure mama has adequate milk to feed what she has. What I can't understand is 3rd and 4th time mamas having to be tied and restrained to let the babies nurse.

I don't know much about goats other than they're goats, but I know udder and teat health from my dairy experience. They are not kicking and avoiding being nursed due to mastitis or other udder probs. They are acting as if the kid isn't theirs.

I'm not a bottle feeder. I have enough goats that it would become a full time job if I was trying to bottle feed 30+ babies. I have nubians, alpines, boers, and crosses of all the above. Several of them are very good producers so I pull the lazy string and sharemilk with a couple of them once the kids get a couple of weeks of age and are plenty aggresive towards the teat. These goats (with the exception of the worst one not being a mother) were all dam raised so have been mothered before and have been mothers before.

I'm also seeing about half the kids taking longer than normal to get up and around after birth and look for a teat. One of them is 4 days old and still has to have the teat put in his mouth and a little squirted in before he starts calmly sucking. He ought to be aggresive at this point.

Any input?

Wonder if the quality of your forage is lacking due to the drought. Maybe start with a hay test, and see if you can get a nutritionist to look at it with you. Slow babies may indicate a selenium deficiency, even if they get free-choice minerals, are they really eating enough of it? Perhaps it will be something as simple as giving bo-se shots.

I've made it a habit for the last few kidding seasons to give all babies 1/2 cc of bo-se sub q as soon as I find them.

As for BoSe, I usually give it to the does anywhere from 10 days to 2 weeks before kidding. It seems to help.
This time they got it way early but I only BoSe a set of trips, one very leggy & walking on his rear knuckles.
It seems like that's a alot of stillborns, even if you have a very large herd. I would investigate chlamydia or even toxo. Moldy hay could also be a culprit for those who arent aware.

I've only had two does kid, but malpositioned kids is already a problem. The doe who kidded last night had ALL kids coming out wrong.

Not that this had anything to do with it, but I didn't BoSe the does before breeding this year. The last time I did BoSe before breeding, Cassie had quintuplet bucklings, and I knew I couldn't deal with that right now. I gave BoSe a couple of weeks before this kidding season started.

There have been two bucklings born this year that I didn't expect to survive over night, but they did. One was weak in the back end, the other couldn't get his front legs under him. They both managed to get up on their feet by the morning! They had BoSe shots within an hour or so of being born.

I still have five does to kid. Toooo many.

I've got ten down and 8 to go. Waaaaay too many goats. This was a 4H project that has gotten out of hand!

The problem is... I fall in love. :) I have a terrible time selling does after they grow to yearlings. Can't sell them before they prove themselves, right???

Can't sell them after they are part of the herd and used to my routine and ... and... and...

Hello, my name is Alice, and I'm a goat addict. :)

I know this will be me next spring... so many to love and no place to put them.

Hello Alice, I'm Goatjunkie. :D

Hello Alice and welcome to Goat Enabler...I mean Addicts Anonymous. :D

I have to admit, I'm not addicted-it's my husband's fault!

But I would be curious about chlamydia with what you are saying, especially if you have brought new goats in within the past kidding season. I think I may be dealing with the same thing here. I plan on treating the 8 does that are due to kid within the next few months, just in case.

There are so many variables-hope you figure it out!

francismilker....your problem is instinct.

In the wild, during lean years, does lose body condition. It's the way of nature. Does with poor body condition will not put as much into the kids...they just don't have it to give. This results in more stillborns and kid deaths.

Then, the final thing: Their bodies tell them that it is lean times...and they don't have enough reserves to raise kids. They do what ALL animals in nature do when it comes down to it: They reject their kids to save themselves.

Every lower animal in nature will do this. If they are skinny, don't have enough body conditioned or reserves built up, they will leave heir offspring to die and try to save themselves. They KNOW they don't have enough in them to spend on raising offspring, and it is better to save themselves and try again next year when perhaps things will be better.

Cattle ranchers had the same problem down here during our drought. Record numbers of stillborns and rejections. It is just the way it is. They are not going to want to raise babies when they, themselves, are not up to condition...it the wild, that would just mean they die first, and then their kids die because they don't have a mom.

To cut down on cost, try top-dressing their rations with coconut oil. I has been working for LonestarChic and I.

Thanks for the tip on coconut oil. Silly question though, where do I buy it? Grocery store? Pharmacy?

And how much do you use per head/day?

Francis, they need green feed. Since you are in a drought can you give them apple cider vinegar for the potassium? Not just a splash in their water, give as much as they want. They also need vitamin A and cod liver oil is a good source, but will have to be drenched. They need iodine. Kelp is the best source.

I know Wal-Mar carries it. In specialty cooking oils. :)

Any GMO'S in your feed?

Our grocery stores here carry coconut oil, too.

If you have anymore stillborns I would have a necropsy done. Testing to see if you have something in your herd would be the best way to go.

You might have to change up your feeding, find what works, what you can afford and easily obtain. Everyone here feeds differently. I feed two parts alfalfa pellets, one part oats with free choice grass hay and high copper cattle mineral. All those items I can easily in my area and it works for my goats.

I find that more malpresentations happen with Winter kiddings. My girls are not very active, move, stretch, walk very much and get those kids into position. I dislike Winter kiddings for many reasons and I have noticed this issue with Winter kids versus Spring.

I would take any doe in labor and put her in a stall herself, if you do not catch her in time I would after she kids put her and her kids in a stall to themselves for 24-48 hours. Make sure the goo from her is on their heads and butts. I have had confusion and stolen kids when they are born in the barn, someone tries to take another's kid and such. By locking them up together for a day or so they bond well and then I let them back into the herd.

Sorry you are having issues and I hope they get resolved.

I have had kids born early this year out of 5 does three have kidded early.

What do you mean by 'early'? Anywhere from 145-155 is common. Up to a week early is still feasible, as well as up to a week late. Any earlier and I'd be worried, any later and I'd induce them. :)

Haven't started kidding this year, but most critters are in good condition. I have one extremely preg doe in the kidding stall because she appears to have injured a leg and can't compete at the hay feeder. She's not due for another 3 weeks but is HUGE, and poor dear can't move fast. Not rot or scald, thankfully.

One of the studies we talked about in the sheep management class is how large sheep herds fed poorly to lambing would lamb and walk away from their lambs. They have nothing to give. Farmer in question had thousands of ewes, and just decided feed costed to much suddenly. Tried to 'starve a profit'. Finally increased their nutrition late in gestation and started seeing a drastic increase in lambs sold per ewe. Same ewes that abandoned last year, suddenly were picture perfect mothers.

Its a fine balance. Animals that are overweight are tons more likely to have metabolic pregnancy diseases. Animals that are underweight are likely to have health and mothering problems.

Personally I free feed a quality grass hay. Top dress grain POST KIDDING with calcium, pre kidding no additional calcium (maintenance and even preg requirements of calcium is pretty reasonable and attainable from most feeds). Free choice minerals, what I can get locally at a good price (Sweetlix magnamilk, 15.00 somethin for 25lbs) Copper Bolus and Bose 2x per year - pre breeding and pre-kidding. Usually 2-4 weeks prior for both. Vaccinate 4 weeks pre-kidding for colostral immunity. I start feeding a grain with 20g/ton rumensin starting a month pre-kidding. This lowers cocci load the adults are shedding into the environment. The grain prevents ketosis which is associated with a negative energy balance, mobilization of body fat which results (long story short) in incomplete beta oxidation in the liver, side products being ketones which further supress the appetite when she's in dire need of energy intake. Sheep, dairy cows, and goats are fairly susceptible to it because they often carry multiples. Multiple kids means much less space is available for the ewe/doe to take in food. So, what food she gets in must be high quality and adequate energy for needs.

As for late term abortions, unthrifty kids, or DOA's, that's pretty unusual. Some abortative diseases, if introduced at particular times to the group after breeding, will simply cause unthrifty or DOA kids that otherwise appear normal. An abortion screen may be enlightening. Also, quality of nutrition of adults can play a large role.

Usually in times of suspected abortion storms or such, you feed a chlortetracycline medicated feed. I've added 10g/lb offbrand 'aureomycin' pellets to my grain mix before. Because the dose is a measly 200mg per head per day, it's really economical. You mix it into their grain, and I just mixed it into a group ration and fed it. If your herd has a history of abortative disease or if you want to stop potential abortion storms, you feed it starting 6 weeks pre-kidding and on through the kidding season.

This year for me it's been breeding does - but that can be attributed to me trying to do everything with hormone cycling I think. Next year I want to use a 'clean up buck' and a breeding harness. I have a particular schedule I NEED does to kid in, so the hormones would be great if they were guaranteed. But it's biology so it's not. :)

Also hoof rot. Holy wet year, batman. Just did first dose of fusoguard last weekend, will be doing the 2nd round on everybody about a wk before they kid. Hope it helps the adults. Even moving the hay feeders, waterers, and keeping them well bedded they still have muddy pathways. blegh.

How do you top dress with calcium?

All, this is a new thing for me. I've not been a "goat herder" for many years but have had a milk goat around or in the vacinity all my life. I have, however, been involved with animal husbandry and taking care of dairy cattle all my life.

I am NOT trying to starve a profit. The girls are getting the text book amount of grain, hay, minerals, and wormings per year. I'm not neglecting them. They're just not thriving and I personally believe it's due to the longterm drought we're in. We're not just experiencing times when it's hard to get hay. We're seeing deep ground moisture getting to the point that if I walk my 80 acres 1 out of every 20 large, old hardwood trees have died. It looks in places like someone has used tree killing pellets to thin hardwoods.

We're in the kind of drought that no new sapplings are springing up and no winter grass is growing. We did have a good early spring crop of clover last year that was short lived when the dog days of summer set in. Sure, we've had a total of 1.2" of rain in the last 2 weeks but we've also had several days with 25mph sustained south winds have taken all that moisture northward away from here. Today, I actually tracked mud in the house when coming from the barn. However, if you take a shovel and dig 12" deep the ground is dry and hard like concrete.

Yes, my goats are not as fat as they should be for this time of year but not a single one of them would fail a body condition score test by a vet. I just think with the drought and growing conditions being so prolonged it has caused the perfect storm for all sorts of deficiencies that would be almost impossible to supplement against the nutrient and mineral losses unless they were confined to a cage doing clinical trials at an Ag college.

I think CallianG had a point when "instinct" was mentioned. The girls are simply shedding the extra burden trying to survive.

Another point to bring to the table would be those does that aren't mothering well. I would notice one getting close to kidding and put her up for a safe, secure, bedded kidding session and things would go south. After the first 5 does had triplets or quads and lost all but one each I finally said, "Let mother nature take care of this." Wouldn't you know it, the rest (last two days) have all laid down and kidded twins and triplets with no problems and no stillborns.

There's a lot to be said about a mother who has roamed around the pastures and woods in her pen and found her "spot" that it's gonna happen only to be removed at the last minute and put in confinement of an unfamiliar area and be pestured to death by someone cramping their style. From now on, I'm going to do what I've done up to this point and leave them alone. I can know the breeding date and keep a watchful eye on her from afar and intervene if necessary but being proactive this year seems to me might have help push some does over the mothering edge IMHO.

Thanks again for the tip on coconut oil. I'll get some asap.

Sorry if I seemed to imply you were starving a profit. I just brought it up as an example since someone mentined the below-good condition that causes lowered mothering ability.

If you can afford to, try to 'feed to condition'. In times of drought, you may have to adjust feed and feed more/less or different feedstuffs depending on what's available and affordable in your area. Instead of following a textbook algorithm for this size goat should get this much feed, feel the goats and see who might need more or less feed, and adjust accordingly. Gets hard in group situations, but if several are fat, you can probably reduce feed. If several are thin, up the feed. If you can, separate groups at feeding (or for the season) into close up, dry/not preg, growing, freshened (etc) pens, and feed those accordingly. Or, fat, good weight, and underweight. I understand it's not that easy most of the time. I can't separate types of goat (meat and dairy) let alone preg stages, lol. I wish I could though... :D


Good to hear that the recent babies are doing well with momma. If it's nice out and I know does are going to be in labor, I tend to let them choose the spot. If it's cruddy out/cold, I tend to try to pen them. I'd rather let them birth where they want if they can, too. :)

I know that the drought has had impacts on the quantity and quality of hay and other forages therefore making the typical "textbook" feeding not necessarily sufficient. I have had to separate my girls into two groups as I had some that were obviously not thriving as well as others, those girls are getting extra feed to help sustain condition.

I saw a lot of premature births in our cattle last fall as did many of my neighbors, as well stillborn and abortions were higher. I haven't started kidding yet but am cautiously watching girls for signs as it gets closer to due dates.

I agree with CaliannG and Mygoat that it is "probably" an instinct type reaction to the does not being able to support themselves and the kids. I would also want to make sure that it is NOT an issue with disease or bacterial infections causing your issues. As was mentioned earlier if you continue to have stillborns I would have a necropsy done as well as the doe tested.

Hope the rest of your girls kid without issue

francismilker, those saplings, broadleafs, etc. that are currently NOT growing due to the drought are what is known as "deep rooted forbes". Deep rooted plants bring up a LOT of minerals from the subsoil. When they are basically eliminated from the diet, animals that depend upon them can develop deficiencies when, in the past, they thrived wonderfully.

Deficiencies contribute to that "instinct".

I don't know if you copper bolus, use bo-se, or what kind of minerals you have out for your goats, but you might consider changing your mineral management to something higher in the trace minerals.

If you are using blocks, switch to a low-salt, high copper, loose cattle mineral. If you are already using loose minerals, try a multi mineral/vitamin supplement.

During the drought down here, for the first time, I was fighting deficiencies right and left, and I could not understand why. I hadn't changed MY management, after all...I had just had to switch to hay from pasture.

Then we had one of the A&M pasture experts speak to our goat group about refurbishing drought damaged pasture and range-land, especially what mixtures would be best for goats, and he told us outright that, for goats, we'd have to up their minerals somehow, because grass hay just would not provide enough to meet their needs...and that even loose minerals had too much salt in them to do so. The goats would eat enough to cure their salt cravings, and then wouldn't touch the stuff, even though they were badly deficient in the trace nutrients.

For us, we got together and had our local Co-op put together a low salt loose mineral, and we all bought it to fulfill the 1 ton minimum contract. However, unless you have a lot of goat folks around, AND a local feed mill, that might not be a good option for you.

You might try switching minerals to a high copper, loose cattle mineral. If you are hands on with them at least weekly, you might try a mineral dosage with something like Ultra-Max, Mineral Max, or Replamin Plus, or another option is to mix Red Cell with their feed.

A fecal egg sample only works while eggs are being shed. Goats eat weeds, but their need for adequate digestible protein is constant.
From my limited experience, selenium is a cure all for getting babies up and nursing. I understand that you are feeding minerals.
If you have a good relationship with your Vet, get some BoSe and give a few injections a week or two before kidding. See if that makes a difference.
Might look at ways to make up for the losses caused by drought. You may have to adjust your tried and true feeding plan because of changes in hay and pasture quality.

Good points. I have been using copper boluses 4x per year now for 3 years. I don't have any signs of copper deficiency in my herd right now.

As far as minerals. I'm feeding a purina mineral labeled especially for goats. It is a loose mineral. They also have a trace mineral block and salt block out at all times.

I'm feeding 14% creep pellets that are 4% fat at a rate of 4lbs each per day and also giving chaffhaye alfalfa mix to the adults lactating. The hay is basically prairie grass mix. Nothing special on the hay but it's a good filler for the rumen. It has NO fescue in it and was 2nd cutting hay that I baled myself. Mostly a mix of bermuda, bluestem, clover, rye, and a little bit of early stage sericea lespedeza.

I have bo-se on hand and use it occasionally. I need to start giving it prior to kidding but have not done it to this point mainly out of ignorance or laziness.

I'm readily accepting all the recent rains we're getting and hope that this brings good spring early growth. Have started noticing some winter growth just the past few days.

This whole thing has had me baffled. I'm finally seeing the effects of this on a longterm basis.

Visited with my vet today and he stated I'm actually in better shape than most in the area. He says he's seen more fetal abortions and stillborn deaths this year in the area goat herds than ever before since he graduated 25 years ago. One goat farmer has 300 does and is seeing about 75% death rate on newborns. Now I understand this problem on the bigger picture scale and realize it's not just me.

The drought will do it. The year before last, when Texas had the *worst* drought we've ever had in recorded history, our local herds were suffering terrible losses. One of the old-timers here, who has a dairy, had 80% kid loss from a combination of abortions, stillborns, and kid deaths.

I'm the only one I know around here that *did not* suffer losses....and I can't tell you what I was doing different from my friends and neighbors, as I am not sure what all their management practices are.

The only difference I can think of is that I *was* feeding the salt grass hay, which everyone told me NOT to...(it was the only hay I could find for a while), and when I could get it, I was feeding the highway hay (stuff they harvest from median strips) rather than the cow hay everyone else was going with.

I also doubled up on boluses and everyone got extra Bo-se shots that year.

:shrug: Maybe it was something I was doing, or maybe I was just right with the Divine or something, but I was spared the kidding difficulties.

I suggest you cut out the salt block and mineral block. The goat mineral has enough salt in it. All the salt block AND mineral block are good for is salt. Salt is pretty close to being the only real reason goats will consume minerals - unless they also contain a ton of molasses. So, they're probably mostly avoiding the loose mineral which is BEST, and going to the blocks for salt. They're meeting their salt requirements, and not much else.

Also, you may be seeing signs of low grade copper TOXICITY if you're bolusing them 4x per year, plus giving minerals that contain copper. I'd never do more than 3x per year, because the boluses have been proven to 'last' for 4 months. I personally do it 2x per year here, pre kidding and pre-breeding. Maintenance (pet) animals aren't even bolused. Any more than 3x per year and you're spending a TON of money and can run into copper toxicity over the years as thier copper load 'builds up'.