Kidding season abnormalities

bknthesdle · #21 02/10/13, 06:03 PM

How do you top dress with calcium?

francismilker · #22 02/10/13, 07:55 PM

All, this is a new thing for me. I've not been a "goat herder" for many years but have had a milk goat around or in the vacinity all my life. I have, however, been involved with animal husbandry and taking care of dairy cattle all my life.

I am NOT trying to starve a profit. The girls are getting the text book amount of grain, hay, minerals, and wormings per year. I'm not neglecting them. They're just not thriving and I personally believe it's due to the longterm drought we're in. We're not just experiencing times when it's hard to get hay. We're seeing deep ground moisture getting to the point that if I walk my 80 acres 1 out of every 20 large, old hardwood trees have died. It looks in places like someone has used tree killing pellets to thin hardwoods.

We're in the kind of drought that no new sapplings are springing up and no winter grass is growing. We did have a good early spring crop of clover last year that was short lived when the dog days of summer set in. Sure, we've had a total of 1.2" of rain in the last 2 weeks but we've also had several days with 25mph sustained south winds have taken all that moisture northward away from here. Today, I actually tracked mud in the house when coming from the barn. However, if you take a shovel and dig 12" deep the ground is dry and hard like concrete.

Yes, my goats are not as fat as they should be for this time of year but not a single one of them would fail a body condition score test by a vet. I just think with the drought and growing conditions being so prolonged it has caused the perfect storm for all sorts of deficiencies that would be almost impossible to supplement against the nutrient and mineral losses unless they were confined to a cage doing clinical trials at an Ag college.

I think CallianG had a point when "instinct" was mentioned. The girls are simply shedding the extra burden trying to survive.

Another point to bring to the table would be those does that aren't mothering well. I would notice one getting close to kidding and put her up for a safe, secure, bedded kidding session and things would go south. After the first 5 does had triplets or quads and lost all but one each I finally said, "Let mother nature take care of this." Wouldn't you know it, the rest (last two days) have all laid down and kidded twins and triplets with no problems and no stillborns.

There's a lot to be said about a mother who has roamed around the pastures and woods in her pen and found her "spot" that it's gonna happen only to be removed at the last minute and put in confinement of an unfamiliar area and be pestured to death by someone cramping their style. From now on, I'm going to do what I've done up to this point and leave them alone. I can know the breeding date and keep a watchful eye on her from afar and intervene if necessary but being proactive this year seems to me might have help push some does over the mothering edge IMHO.

Thanks again for the tip on coconut oil. I'll get some asap.

**mygoat** · #23 02/10/13, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francismilker

I am NOT trying to starve a profit. The girls are getting the text book amount of grain, hay, minerals, and wormings per year. I'm not neglecting them. They're just not thriving and I personally believe it's due to the longterm drought we're in. We're not just experiencing times when it's hard to get hay. We're seeing deep ground moisture getting to the point that if I walk my 80 acres 1 out of every 20 large, old hardwood trees have died. It looks in places like someone has used tree killing pellets to thin hardwoods.

We're in the kind of drought that no new sapplings are springing up and no winter grass is growing. We did have a good early spring crop of clover last year that was short lived when the dog days of summer set in. Sure, we've had a total of 1.2" of rain in the last 2 weeks but we've also had several days with 25mph sustained south winds have taken all that moisture northward away from here. Today, I actually tracked mud in the house when coming from the barn. However, if you take a shovel and dig 12" deep the ground is dry and hard like concrete.

Sorry if I seemed to imply you were starving a profit. I just brought it up as an example since someone mentined the below-good condition that causes lowered mothering ability.

If you can afford to, try to 'feed to condition'. In times of drought, you may have to adjust feed and feed more/less or different feedstuffs depending on what's available and affordable in your area. Instead of following a textbook algorithm for this size goat should get this much feed, feel the goats and see who might need more or less feed, and adjust accordingly. Gets hard in group situations, but if several are fat, you can probably reduce feed. If several are thin, up the feed. If you can, separate groups at feeding (or for the season) into close up, dry/not preg, growing, freshened (etc) pens, and feed those accordingly. Or, fat, good weight, and underweight. I understand it's not that easy most of the time. I can't separate types of goat (meat and dairy) let alone preg stages, lol. I wish I could though...

Good to hear that the recent babies are doing well with momma. If it's nice out and I know does are going to be in labor, I tend to let them choose the spot. If it's cruddy out/cold, I tend to try to pen them. I'd rather let them birth where they want if they can, too.

Crazy Farmgirl · #24 02/11/13, 07:26 AM

I know that the drought has had impacts on the quantity and quality of hay and other forages therefore making the typical "textbook" feeding not necessarily sufficient. I have had to separate my girls into two groups as I had some that were obviously not thriving as well as others, those girls are getting extra feed to help sustain condition.

I saw a lot of premature births in our cattle last fall as did many of my neighbors, as well stillborn and abortions were higher. I haven't started kidding yet but am cautiously watching girls for signs as it gets closer to due dates.

I agree with CaliannG and Mygoat that it is "probably" an instinct type reaction to the does not being able to support themselves and the kids. I would also want to make sure that it is NOT an issue with disease or bacterial infections causing your issues. As was mentioned earlier if you continue to have stillborns I would have a necropsy done as well as the doe tested.

Hope the rest of your girls kid without issue

CaliannG · #25 02/11/13, 06:53 PM

francismilker, those saplings, broadleafs, etc. that are currently NOT growing due to the drought are what is known as "deep rooted forbes". Deep rooted plants bring up a LOT of minerals from the subsoil. When they are basically eliminated from the diet, animals that depend upon them can develop deficiencies when, in the past, they thrived wonderfully.

Deficiencies contribute to that "instinct".

I don't know if you copper bolus, use bo-se, or what kind of minerals you have out for your goats, but you might consider changing your mineral management to something higher in the trace minerals.

If you are using blocks, switch to a low-salt, high copper, loose cattle mineral. If you are already using loose minerals, try a multi mineral/vitamin supplement.

During the drought down here, for the first time, I was fighting deficiencies right and left, and I could not understand why. I hadn't changed MY management, after all...I had just had to switch to hay from pasture.

Then we had one of the A&M pasture experts speak to our goat group about refurbishing drought damaged pasture and range-land, especially what mixtures would be best for goats, and he told us outright that, for goats, we'd have to up their minerals somehow, because grass hay just would not provide enough to meet their needs...and that even loose minerals had too much salt in them to do so. The goats would eat enough to cure their salt cravings, and then wouldn't touch the stuff, even though they were badly deficient in the trace nutrients.

For us, we got together and had our local Co-op put together a low salt loose mineral, and we all bought it to fulfill the 1 ton minimum contract. However, unless you have a lot of goat folks around, AND a local feed mill, that might not be a good option for you.

You might try switching minerals to a high copper, loose cattle mineral. If you are hands on with them at least weekly, you might try a mineral dosage with something like Ultra-Max, Mineral Max, or Replamin Plus, or another option is to mix Red Cell with their feed.

haypoint · #26 02/11/13, 07:08 PM

A fecal egg sample only works while eggs are being shed. Goats eat weeds, but their need for adequate digestible protein is constant.
From my limited experience, selenium is a cure all for getting babies up and nursing. I understand that you are feeding minerals.
If you have a good relationship with your Vet, get some BoSe and give a few injections a week or two before kidding. See if that makes a difference.
Might look at ways to make up for the losses caused by drought. You may have to adjust your tried and true feeding plan because of changes in hay and pasture quality.

francismilker · #27 02/11/13, 09:09 PM

Good points. I have been using copper boluses 4x per year now for 3 years. I don't have any signs of copper deficiency in my herd right now.

As far as minerals. I'm feeding a purina mineral labeled especially for goats. It is a loose mineral. They also have a trace mineral block and salt block out at all times.

I'm feeding 14% creep pellets that are 4% fat at a rate of 4lbs each per day and also giving chaffhaye alfalfa mix to the adults lactating. The hay is basically prairie grass mix. Nothing special on the hay but it's a good filler for the rumen. It has NO fescue in it and was 2nd cutting hay that I baled myself. Mostly a mix of bermuda, bluestem, clover, rye, and a little bit of early stage sericea lespedeza.

I have bo-se on hand and use it occasionally. I need to start giving it prior to kidding but have not done it to this point mainly out of ignorance or laziness.

I'm readily accepting all the recent rains we're getting and hope that this brings good spring early growth. Have started noticing some winter growth just the past few days.

This whole thing has had me baffled. I'm finally seeing the effects of this on a longterm basis.

Visited with my vet today and he stated I'm actually in better shape than most in the area. He says he's seen more fetal abortions and stillborn deaths this year in the area goat herds than ever before since he graduated 25 years ago. One goat farmer has 300 does and is seeing about 75% death rate on newborns. Now I understand this problem on the bigger picture scale and realize it's not just me.

CaliannG · #28 02/11/13, 10:08 PM

The drought will do it. The year before last, when Texas had the *worst* drought we've ever had in recorded history, our local herds were suffering terrible losses. One of the old-timers here, who has a dairy, had 80% kid loss from a combination of abortions, stillborns, and kid deaths.

I'm the only one I know around here that *did not* suffer losses....and I can't tell you what I was doing different from my friends and neighbors, as I am not sure what all their management practices are.

The only difference I can think of is that I *was* feeding the salt grass hay, which everyone told me NOT to...(it was the only hay I could find for a while), and when I could get it, I was feeding the highway hay (stuff they harvest from median strips) rather than the cow hay everyone else was going with.

I also doubled up on boluses and everyone got extra Bo-se shots that year.

Maybe it was something I was doing, or maybe I was just right with the Divine or something, but I was spared the kidding difficulties.

**mygoat** · #29 02/11/13, 11:05 PM

I suggest you cut out the salt block and mineral block. The goat mineral has enough salt in it. All the salt block AND mineral block are good for is salt. Salt is pretty close to being the only real reason goats will consume minerals - unless they also contain a ton of molasses. So, they're probably mostly avoiding the loose mineral which is BEST, and going to the blocks for salt. They're meeting their salt requirements, and not much else.

Also, you may be seeing signs of low grade copper TOXICITY if you're bolusing them 4x per year, plus giving minerals that contain copper. I'd never do more than 3x per year, because the boluses have been proven to 'last' for 4 months. I personally do it 2x per year here, pre kidding and pre-breeding. Maintenance (pet) animals aren't even bolused. Any more than 3x per year and you're spending a TON of money and can run into copper toxicity over the years as thier copper load 'builds up'.