Hot Topics in the Goat Forum

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by farmerDale

Thanks, now we are cooking! I do have alot of space, and good fences, and several seperate paddocks to split them all up. How much space for a pair of goats to not overgraze/browse? I may make a new little pasture this summer in a pice of natural forest area in the yard....

If you have decent, diversified forbes (grasses, broadleafs, saplings, etc.), and you want them to get 80% of their nutritional input from browsing and grazing, then the rule of thumb is:

5 standard goats per acre
7 Mini-goats per acre
10 Nigerian Dwarf goats per acre

This is, of course, flexible. If you have a harsh climate, poor soil, or limited variety of flora, stock less. If you have rich soil, much variation in flora, and a mild climate, you can stock more. Those are the averages.

[Minelson]

FUNNY!!! The phone just rang...it was a congressperson tape recording. I hung up. Hubby says who was that. I said a political recording, we will probably get those now that I went on line and complained about GMO's ....he says ''why? what could be wrong with that!'' I said you didn't watch the video... He says ''why do you have video on the Greater Milwaukee Open?'' (yearly golf thing in WI)

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by Crazy Farmgirl

I would l like to see people backing up claims and sharing links to research that has influenced their decisions. I prefer to base my decisions on science not someone elses opinion.

Thing is for me at least, my information is mainly from 20 years of grain farming experience. It is tough to share links of my experiences, and my positive environmental benefits of using gm crops. Otherwise I would. Speaking for me at least.

["SPIKE"]

Originally Posted by Minelson

FUNNY!!! The phone just rang...it was a congressperson tape recording. I hung up. Hubby says who was that. I said a political recording, we will probably get those now that I went on line and complained about GMO's ....he says ''why? what could be wrong with that!'' I said you didn't watch the video... He says ''why do you have video on the Greater Milwaukee Open?'' (yearly golf thing in WI)

Polititions at their best!


SPIKE

[Sherry in Iowa]

To the board..sorry I blew a gasket yesterday..I apologize.

Thank you for the pms and encouragement.

[PrettyPaisley]

I'm in the camp that thinks it's not cool when others who don't frequent this forum to discuss goats chime in and tell goat people they are wrong for looking for better options when it comes to nourishing their goats. You don't see goat folks who don't farm hay for a living hanging out in the hay forum wagging a finger at the Monstanto fans.

People who want to understand GMOs should be allowed to ask questions and be pointed to information where they can better understand that perhaps the FDA/USDA/Monsanto/Bayer/Big Ag aren't in it to feed to world the way they would like us to believe.

[o&itw]

Ther is currently a thread on the goat forum which speaks of a hot topic without actually naming it. Though it is obvious which "side" the OP is on, it was posted without any passionate inuendos, and I think it has been attended very well by members of the goat forum. Perhaps if the OP had actually named the subject it would have brought all kinds of interlopers crashing in to expound on a certain viewpoint. Normally I stay away from these kinds of threads, if they are outside GC because they are doomed from the start.

However, I did watch the video and am glad I did. It has given me food for thought and inlined me to research the subject more fully. If threads could be attended as well as that one has been, with out the insults, "hot topics" might benefit us all.

No one is immune from "this for that" coments without considered care. Once it gets started it soon spirals into trading insults, and then benefits no one.

[Oat Bucket Farm]

I think having to campaign to have the opportunity to discuss it here has reminded us that we too are responsible for how a thread goes. Someone can't come in and start a ruckus, if we refuse to argue back. One sided arguments are no fun. We have started to get pulled in and then caught ourselves with a small reminder from the mods. Once reminded, we quickly got back on topic. Every board has to remember that the posters in the thread are just as responsible as those who are causing trouble. If we take responsibility for our own actions and don't argue back and keep posts civil.

[PrettyPaisley]

Originally Posted by Oat Bucket Farm

I think having to campaign to have the opportunity to discuss it here has reminded us that we too are responsible for how a thread goes. Someone can't come in and start a ruckus, if we refuse to argue back. One sided arguments are no fun. We have started to get pulled in and then caught ourselves with a small reminder from the mods. Once reminded, we quickly got back on topic. Every board has to remember that the posters in the thread are just as responsible as those who are causing trouble. If we take responsibility for our own actions and don't argue back and keep posts civil.

Lead me not into temptation .... it's so stinking hard not to argue back when things get snarky and rude, though!!!

[Crazy Farmgirl]

Originally Posted by farmerDale

Thing is for me at least, my information is mainly from 20 years of grain farming experience. It is tough to share links of my experiences, and my positive environmental benefits of using gm crops. Otherwise I would. Speaking for me at least.

I completely understand your position and am open to hearing how it has benefited YOU specifically. If you have links to back up your experience I'd certainly like to look at them if not then simply stating specific benefits you have seen in your experience will give me an avenue to explore on my own. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to make our decisions based on as much information as we can from all standpoints on the issue.

I have noticed that if/when information is presented that contradicts what someone else has said, even if it is not snarky, some take it very personally and immediately go on the defensive and all goes downhill. Those type of reactions make it very difficult to discuss any subject. We need to remember that we are all entitled to our opinions/decisions and if someone disagrees it is NOT a personal attack.

[Sonshine]

Originally Posted by farmerDale

Thing is for me at least, my information is mainly from 20 years of grain farming experience. It is tough to share links of my experiences, and my positive environmental benefits of using gm crops. Otherwise I would. Speaking for me at least.

I'm glad you posted this. I prefer to hear about personal experience. A lot of information you find online from researchers are basically just book knowledge, which has it's place, but doesn't always know better than first hand experience.

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by Crazy Farmgirl

I completely understand your position and am open to hearing how it has benefited YOU specifically. If you have links to back up your experience I'd certainly like to look at them if not then simply stating specific benefits you have seen in your experience will give me an avenue to explore on my own. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to make our decisions based on as much information as we can from all standpoints on the issue.

I have noticed that if/when information is presented that contradicts what someone else has said, even if it is not snarky, some take it very personally and immediately go on the defensive and all goes downhill. Those type of reactions make it very difficult to discuss any subject. We need to remember that we are all entitled to our opinions/decisions and if someone disagrees it is NOT a personal attack.

Hey, for some specific points, I have been formulating a response to both the pro and the nay side of the gm debates on the other forums. I plan to put it in typing here today when I get half a chance. Been hauling grain, and the power was just out for 4 hours, and so I am kinda resetting timers on the farm, making sure the indoor critters are alright and such.

I agree so very wholeheartedly that some people sure do take positive, sincere, accurate, and powerful information that is contrary to their beliefs, so badly, that they seem to panic and get flustered, and run away and hide, or put you on ignore, rather than either ask more questions, or argue back. I think this happens most when these types of folks hear or see some info that they are surprised at and are not sure how to rebutt, so they resort to ignore buttons, or calling names, or calling us mean hearted.

An example would be the drastically lower herbicide, fuel, and tillage use on my farm thanks in part to gm crops. The fact the soil is getting better, and I need to use LESS fertilizer and herbicides than prior to the advent of gm canola.

(which runs counter to all the stuff they gravitate to and read and watch on the internet. You know, those videos that tell how farmers continually have to use stronger and more fertilizer and herbicides as time goes on.)

It is hard for anti gm folks to argue against that, so they say I am in the pocket of monsanto, even if I rarely grow or use their products. They ask what is in it for me if I am pro gm? When the answer is less fuel use, less herbicide use, and healthier, more productive soils, they just cycle through it again and again, because they really can not argue against that. Especially if they have no farm experience whatsoever to give them half a clue...

Dale

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by Sonshine

I'm glad you posted this. I prefer to hear about personal experience. A lot of information you find online from researchers are basically just book knowledge, which has it's place, but doesn't always know better than first hand experience.

I must say that my experience may not be entirely universal, because all crops are different. Again, I intend to try and put together a relatively coherent statement on why I appreciate gm technology, as well as some of my concerns. Because I appreciate gm canola, does not mean I want gm wheat, or gm pigs, or gm sheep. Lots of folks fail to catch that. Just because I see merit of gm technology in some areas, there are many areas where there is no farmer benefit, no environmental benefit, and no need for a particular product.

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by PrettyPaisley

Lead me not into temptation .... it's so stinking hard not to argue back when things get snarky and rude, though!!!

It is VERY difficult to *think* first, and not to REACT. We are WIRED to do the "fight or flight" thing, whether that be physically, when encountering a physical threat to ourselves, or socially, when encountering a social threat to our status. ("Status" can be something as simple as how others perceive your knowledge on a subject. Status, in and of itself, among the human race, is a HUGE, much studied subject.)

So our initial reaction when we feel socially attacked is to either defend ourselves, or attack back, or sometimes both. That is a common, natural reaction. Many things can make us FEEL attacked. Having a viewpoint that we hold dear attacked can make us feel personally attacked....because if others think the viewpoint is idiotic, then, by extension, they think the people that hold the viewpoint must be idiotic as well, correct?

So, it is very, VERY natural that on topics such as GMOs, that people on BOTH sides get hot, defensive, and attacking.

But let's look at it from a logical perspective. Let's look at it from a logical perspective on BOTH sides.

Pro-GMO: It is perfectly logical for people who see that "FDA regards GMO as generally safe" part of it, consider the difficulties in conventional farming practices, and embrace the new technology. There are many folks out there that are ALL FOR new technology. If you look at the machine you are using to read this, and think about how this machine was on the "Yeah right, that'll never happen" list when I was banging my head to Quiet Riot in the 80's, you might get the general gist. Technology has changed the world..in some ways for the better and some ways for the worst. Massive technological advances in all areas have improved our lives. Cancer is no longer a death sentence, and I can give Ani tips about goat management in New Zealand from my comfy chair in Texas, in an instant. Just a couple of decades ago, I wouldn't have know people even HAD goats in New Zealand unless I went and looked it up at the library, much less known anyone personally, or given them advice.

So, with our changing world, it is perfectly logical to think, and hope, that GMOs are the Next Great Thing in agriculture, and to embrace it.

Anti-GMO: It is also perfectly rational and logical to look at the government and the corporations which are promoting this technology...look at their past records and many of the not-so-ethical things they have done, and say, "Nope, ain't gonna trust it, don't wanna hear it, no, I don't want no part of that stuff! Who knows WHAT it will do?!"

And who can blame them? Governments have been toppled and people murdered, all in the name of Ag corps making money...it is quite obvious that even if the stuff was obvious and clearly labeled *poison*, those companies would happily sell it anyway, spending millions of dollars on marketing to tell the world how wonderful it is, so how can the average person know if it is or isn't?

How many times do you have to be burned before you look at the stove and decide you are not touching it no matter what settings the dang thing SAYS it is on?

*********************************

And this is actually what makes something a "Hot Topic". When both sides have reasonable, rational, logical reasons for their position, who is right and who is wrong? Both and neither, that is who.

You can't tell the pro-GMO folks "Run AWAY from the technology! It is EVIL! Run! Save yourself!" without seeming like the world's second biggest hypocrite since you are typing it on a computer. You also can't tell the anti-GMO folks "No, THIS time it is all right. Even those these corporations have been complete sociopaths in the past, THIS time, when they say it is safe, it really IS safe!" without seeming like a drooling imbecile.

BOTH sides are completely rational, intelligent and reasonable, and I wish BOTH sides would realize that!

[Oat Bucket Farm]

Well said Cailann.

[Sherry in Iowa]

Originally Posted by farmerDale

Hey, for some specific points, I have been formulating a response to both the pro and the nay side of the gm debates on the other forums. I plan to put it in typing here today when I get half a chance. Been hauling grain, and the power was just out for 4 hours, and so I am kinda resetting timers on the farm, making sure the indoor critters are alright and such.

I agree so very wholeheartedly that some people sure do take positive, sincere, accurate, and powerful information that is contrary to their beliefs, so badly, that they seem to panic and get flustered, and run away and hide, or put you on ignore, rather than either ask more questions, or argue back. I think this happens most when these types of folks hear or see some info that they are surprised at and are not sure how to rebutt, so they resort to ignore buttons, or calling names, or calling us mean hearted.

An example would be the drastically lower herbicide, fuel, and tillage use on my farm thanks in part to gm crops. The fact the soil is getting better, and I need to use LESS fertilizer and herbicides than prior to the advent of gm canola.

(which runs counter to all the stuff they gravitate to and read and watch on the internet. You know, those videos that tell how farmers continually have to use stronger and more fertilizer and herbicides as time goes on.)

It is hard for anti gm folks to argue against that, so they say I am in the pocket of monsanto, even if I rarely grow or use their products. They ask what is in it for me if I am pro gm? When the answer is less fuel use, less herbicide use, and healthier, more productive soils, they just cycle through it again and again, because they really can not argue against that. Especially if they have no farm experience whatsoever to give them half a clue...

Dale

I'm upfront enough to say that I plainly do not like GMO foods. I also do not like a lot of the sprays for herbicides and pesticides. I'm someone who thinks if a person does like these things...fine. But, if people like me do not..then I should have options. Things should be labeled if it's GMO or not. I believe Canada has labeling? See, that gives the consumer guidance and a choice.

My neighbors are watch dogs for any weeds. They contend that a weed on my place [B]may[B] get blown by the wind and land on their place. Fair enough. We are surrounded by farmers..LARGE farmers. They think nothing at all of calling in airplanes to spray..doesn't matter if the wind blows it on us, our pastures, gardens or my wash hanging outside. We had a guy forget to turn off the spray when he got to our fence line..oh well. We had a guy run our Dexter cattle and goats with his airplane..we watched him. When we called the land owner and complained..the pilot called us. He told us he was sorry..and to please please not contact the FAA..he didn't want to lose his job. It was over 100 degrees that day..pregnant cows and goats. Yeah, I am jaded.

When it comes to personal experience, many of us have that. Whether it be in farming, livestock and or human health. You bring 20 years of farming in Canada..that's great. We all bring our experience too. No one's experience is better or worse..it just is.

When it comes to studies..both sides say the other has an agenda..it can't be trusted. It's a draw then. Then it's left up to our "experiences".

I am jaded against Monsanto. I admit it. I quit there and never regretted it a second. I saw things that still bother me. That is MY experience. It matters, work for a company, making their product, see how they handle certain situations..and you know "who" they are.

I have never hit an ignore button..I'm no chicken. I am however, a person that does not want to hurt anyone .. or belittle anyone's belief on this subject. I have found..for me..that it is better to sit back and watch for a while when something comes up that puts me to a bad side..as in yesterday.

My ex and I only farmed 2500 acres. I'm sure you farm much more. Around here..Midwest U.S.A..root worms are resisting the spray. Hopefully Canada has not encountered this yet. What should we do about that? I dunno..that's for smarter minds than me.

I have worked for Monsanto..blending it..which means putting the ingredients in big underground tanks and actually making product. And yep...been on the tractor side of applying it.

I really don't care..honestly .. what you plant or how you plant it. I only care about my family and my animals. When chucking corn syrup and gmo products made ME feel better..how could I not want the best for my family and livestock? It's not just the gmo stuff..I also don't like pesticide and herbicide use. If the majority of our food can be without these 3 things..then that's what I'm gonna buy. We give up extra money in order to afford some of these foods..it's all about choice.

Reading this..you cannot know my expression, my tone or demeanor. I assure you that I am not mad, or "needing" to win a debate. And in the end, my faith does not jive with the gmos and such.

I wish you well. And if you truly do get into goats..I think you'll love them.

[Sparkie]

Originally Posted by Shygal

If you want to see a hot topic, go in the Gardening forum and ask about growing potatoes in tires, or ask about till vs no till

And if you think about it, those turn ugly because of the same know it all type experts (who feel that they must "educate" us) that turn the gmo threads nasty. The people are the problem, not the topics.